Thread: Plagiarism Spinoff: songs that are "taken"

Would you catch plagiarism of choreography or sequences of movement if they are so badly executed that you no longer recognize them?

Is it still plagiarism?

ADDING THIS: is it OK to plagerise a choreography because it is so badly executed that you no longer recognize it as the original work? Not talking about adapted choreographies - that's a different discussion.

Additional spinoff:
http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...m-credits.html

Lol! that's funny ^^

I was asking about a song on another thread, and someone posted a clip of a dancer performing to that song. The choreography (by Raqia Hassan) WAS credited on the video, but I've been working with that choreo for a month now and I NEVER would have recognized it as the same one, but for the music.

It wasn't that the dancer was BAD. She was a very fluid and lovely performer -- but she just missed all of what I considered the very Raqia points and accents in the dance. She made the choreography HERS, which is what you're supposed to do, but it looked completely different.

I've seen such poor renditions of the old Jillina drum solo that I didn't recognize it, except by the music. So No, I don't think I would recognize plagiarism of choreography unless I first recognized the music.

Originally Posted by aziyade

I was asking about a song on another thread, and someone posted a clip of a dancer performing to that song. The choreography (by Raqia Hassan) WAS credited on the video, but I've been working with that choreo for a month now and I NEVER would have recognized it as the same one, but for the music.

It wasn't that the dancer was BAD. She was a very fluid and lovely performer -- but she just missed all of what I considered the very Raqia points and accents in the dance. She made the choreography HERS, which is what you're supposed to do, but it looked completely different.

I've seen such poor renditions of the old Jillina drum solo that I didn't recognize it, except by the music. So No, I don't think I would recognize plagiarism of choreography unless I first recognized the music.

I've seen even wonderful dancers do someone else's choreography, and their style was so different that it took me a little bit to realize that they were, in fact, using someone else's choreography. Now I've used others' choreography but I gave full credit; this dancer did not. She got it off of an instructional video, which some would say, if you paid for it, it's yours, but I still think that if you are going to put it on a video and call it your own, give the proper credit. That's more professional courtesy and does avoid any possible litigation, even if their is no standing for any initiation of any lawsuits.

The best way around this, IMO, is to label the choreo as "inspired by Jillina," or "based on a Jillina choreography," rather than "choreography by Jillina."

I'm confused...if you go to a workshop and/or buy a DVD don't you get to use that choreo however you see fit? It wouldn't be plagiarism at all. I mean most people even post notes on their Web sites so you can work on the choreos from home.

I mean I know choreos are copyrighted, but I thought you could still use them if you "purchased it" through video or workshop...but you couldn't teach to others.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

The best way around this, IMO, is to label the choreo as "inspired by Jillina," or "based on a Jillina choreography," rather than "choreography by Jillina."

I like this language much better.

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

I'm confused...if you go to a workshop and/or buy a DVD don't you get to use that choreo however you see fit? It wouldn't be plagiarism at all. I mean most people even post notes on their Web sites so you can work on the choreos from home.

I mean I know choreos are copyrighted, but I thought you could still use them if you "purchased it" through video or workshop...but you couldn't teach to others.

Generally, you can use them with credit. I learned a baladi choreography from a Dr. Mo video and performed it on Saturday, and he was credited as I was announced - in fact, he got as much airtime in my announcement as I did. I like the fact that he leaves a lot of his choreography open for your own personality and interpretation - the nuances are all your own to add.

If I can email the choreographer to get permission, I do. I emailed Michelle Joyce to ask if I could use her drum solo choreography that I learned on her video, and she said it was fine. I gave her credit of course.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

Generally, you can use them with credit. I learned a baladi choreography from a Dr. Mo video and performed it on Saturday, and he was credited as I was announced - in fact, he got as much airtime in my announcement as I did. I like the fact that he leaves a lot of his choreography open for your own personality and interpretation - the nuances are all your own to add.

If I can email the choreographer to get permission, I do. I emailed Michelle Joyce to ask if I could use her drum solo choreography that I learned on her video, and she said it was fine. I gave her credit of course.

I've done this a couple of times with the originator too. I also add something of my own. I usually phrase it like, e.g., "original choreography by Jillina with an added contribution by Fotia" and then I feel like I gave them their due.

I learn choreos I like from youtube since my second year in bellydance. It's a challenge and it's so motivating to learn when you really love the music and think: that's it! They did it right it's so well matched and the spirit of it...
I don't go about performing those choreos for money. I perform only at haflas or student showcases and always credit the choreographer.

But learning choreos from other dancers totally makes sense to me. I am memorizing their choices and am challenging my body. It is how I make those dancers my teachers. It isn't the end of it all, I hope one day I will improvise and throw bits and pieces together, because I cannot remember one exact choreo forever...but why only depend on teachers around here?

The dancers I learn from, like Orit, Randa and others, they are famous pros and need not worry I'd steal their style, I'm far from it ..l;,

although there was that Brazilian fan that wrote on a dancers performance of Saida's "Little Baladi" on youtube: she's better than Saida!

Ok Randa, watch out, I'm cominggggggggggggggg......l;,

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

I'm confused...if you go to a workshop and/or buy a DVD don't you get to use that choreo however you see fit? It wouldn't be plagiarism at all. I mean most people even post notes on their Web sites so you can work on the choreos from home.

I mean I know choreos are copyrighted, but I thought you could still use them if you "purchased it" through video or workshop...but you couldn't teach to others.

I think you can perform it. But I guess once you're a professional, you must add your own stuff. If you go on stage and are paid money, you ought to be able to come up with something of your own.
After all, it's a reverence to a famous dancer if you dance their stuff for reason that it pleases you what they invented, not because you couldn't get along yourself.

But on a hafla, I think it's totally ok to stick to someone else's choreography.

In classical music, does every pianist or violinist invent the music he or she plays, though? Is this a valid comparison? I often thought about that!

Originally Posted by andalee-oriental

I'm confused...if you go to a workshop and/or buy a DVD don't you get to use that choreo however you see fit? It wouldn't be plagiarism at all. I mean most people even post notes on their Web sites so you can work on the choreos from home.

I mean I know choreos are copyrighted, but I thought you could still use them if you "purchased it" through video or workshop...but you couldn't teach to others.

All you have to do is give credits in that case. Its not plagerism if you say where you got it from (and have permission to use it by way of DVD/workshop/purchase), see what I mean? :)

Originally Posted by Nouria

I think you can perform it. But I guess once you're a professional, you must add your own stuff. If you go on stage and are paid money, you ought to be able to come up with something of your own.
After all, it's a reverence to a famous dancer if you dance their stuff for reason that it pleases you what they invented, not because you couldn't get along yourself.

But on a hafla, I think it's totally ok to stick to someone else's choreography.

In classical music, does every pianist or violinist invent the music he or she plays, though? Is this a valid comparison? I often thought about that!

No, even professionals dance choreographies by others quite often. What makes it OK is the disclosure of the source/given credits with the pre-requisite that permission is obtained through workshop payment/DVD purchase/by email or in writing/purchase of rights/material.

The classical music comparison is very valid. Not every pianist or violinist invents the music they play, but they do disclose who and what they are playing.

Originally Posted by david

The classical music comparison is very valid. Not every pianist or violinist invents the music they play, but they do disclose who and what they are playing.

disclose, you're funny...the classical music repertoire is not a secret!
It's all about the interpretation. Interpretes are not even supposed to be compositors.

But look at this: I must say this looks like really inspired by Randa! I went to a workshop with Saida where she taught this, now I am learning the Randa choreo and to me it's many similarities, so it's like a "taken" song, and Saida maybe didn't manage to get away from the Randa-stuff when choreographing el Toba?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muxKcGJ9gws&feature=related]YouTube - Bellywood -Saida[/ame]

but only the beginning...

Originally Posted by Nouria

disclose, you're funny...the classical music repertoire is not a secret!
It's all about the interpretation. Interpretes are not even supposed to be compositors.

But look at this: I must say this looks like really inspired by Randa! I went to a workshop with Saida where she taught this, now I am learning the Randa choreo and to me it's many similarities, so it's like a "taken" song, and Saida maybe didn't manage to get away from the Randa-stuff when choreographing el Toba?

YouTube - Bellywood -Saida

WELL, I would - put on edge - argue that our audiences would be familiar with the classical dance reportoire as well if we dancers got our act together on disclosing where we get our choreographies and inspirations from ..g.:..g.:.p:: We would have the same impact and continuum in our art form as classical dance too, potentially, if we had such "habits" in place.

I am not accusing anyone of anything - I dig Saida - but as a viewer that has seen Randa dance this song it looks like Saida is dancing the same identical sequence as Randa does in her choreography in the beginning of this clip. NOW, whether Saida has bought the DVD, taken private lessons or called Randa for a permission - we will never know....

This is where (speaking generally) think we dancers have a responsibility to disclose and inform our students and audiences of WHERE we got our information/knowledge from. It doesn't discredit our effort or ability - I'd rather say that it adds integrity to what we do.

I know that I and many others both as dancers and instructors make an effort to mention "such and such combination is from such and such dancer" or "do this movement like so and so dancer or even "this is a choreography by so and so". (which is nothing to brag about as it should be a given in all dancers and instructors)

Additionally, there are the universal concepts of movement such as direction, intent, flow, emphasis, effort, shape, relation to space... which don't necessarily need a further "disclaimer of ownership" unless the teaching method or philosophy of movement comes from a certain source such as Balanchine, Laban or such. We usually refer to these concepts by stylistic school of thought (style) rather...

You can definitely use choreo's from workshops and such, that's why we teach them, I always ask that you give credit if possible, if you change at least 1/3 of the dance, I ask that you just say "Choreography inspired by Aradia" since I don't know what you are going to put in the parts you change, I don't want my name on it as "my idea"

If you dance to a song I've choreographed and just pull out a 3 or 4 of my accent steps to use in the same place, but the rest of it is your own, then no, I don't need credit, that's getting too picky!!

Originally Posted by david

I am not accusing anyone of anything - I dig Saida - but as a viewer that has seen Randa dance this song it looks like Saida is dancing the same identical sequence as Randa does in her choreography in the beginning of this clip. NOW, whether Saida has bought the DVD, taken private lessons or called Randa for a permission - we will never know....

No I don't want to accuse Saida. But I think it's notable that she drew inspiration from Randa, for maybe she wants to break her own habits of what is her signature style. She's the role model for almost all Latin America, everybody looking at her, so she might want to deliver something new she can't get from her surroundings. Also the style of her band is very linked to her dancing style. Maybe she wants some Egyptian-ness? I think this is legitimate and it's great if you seek to evolve. It can only be taken as a compliment to Randa.

I think El Toba is very owned by Randa at this moment for she taught workshops all around the world and it's even her choreo on her first instructional dvd.

Originally Posted by david

WELL, I would - put on edge - argue that our audiences would be familiar with the classical dance reportoire as well if we dancers got our act together on disclosing where we get our choreographies and inspirations from ..g.:..g.:.p::

In classical European music and dance - of course, everything is written down.
And I guess of course the erudite bellydancer knows famous interpretations of this and that song, but bellydance isn't supposed to be totally choreographed so you go along habits. Original moves are taken and integrated into the repertoire for future generations.
Maybe we also worry too much. It takes time to get over your teachers and influences. Once you have a recognizable style of your own, I believe you must not worry about plagiarists. It's great to be a source of inspiration, and as long as people don't own a style for themselves, it's noticeable. There are cases where some are just happy by copying others overall, and I think it's problematic to surf entirely on someone elses wave - but rather risky for the copy than for the original.

Originally Posted by Nouria

In classical European music and dance - of course, everything is written down.
And I guess of course the erudite bellydancer knows famous interpretations of this and that song, but bellydance isn't supposed to be totally choreographed so you go along habits. Original moves are taken and integrated into the repertoire for future generations.
Maybe we also worry too much. It takes time to get over your teachers and influences. Once you have a recognizable style of your own, I believe you must not worry about plagiarists. It's great to be a source of inspiration, and as long as people don't own a style for themselves, it's noticeable. There are cases where some are just happy by copying others overall, and I think it's problematic to surf entirely on someone elses wave - but rather risky for the copy than for the original.

Oh, I totally see your point about bellydance isn't (necessarily) suppose to be totally choreographed - at all times. I was more referring to choreographies that do/have existed. Ballet has "the choreographies" and then it has choreographies. Ballet also has "the music compositions" and then it has music compositions. There are definitely some choreographies and/or music compositions that are "set in stone" if abided by. That doesn't stop choreographers from making totally new choreographies to "classic" pieces. It is indeed an identity of the style that there are the "classics" and that there are "newer material" [ref: choreographies] or "choreographic interpretations" of music in addition. We already have "interpretations" in Bellydance, do we have classics? I guess in Egyptian style Reda's work can to some extent be considered "must have" choreographic and stylistic reportoire. What else? Are there similar "classics" in other dance styles?

I am by all means not trying to whine about plagiarism on behalf of either the famous dancers, or the plagiarists, or semi-famous dancers or non-famous dancers. I hope it didn't come across as such. I'm just trying to get a feel of people's thoughts on the subject as it's a subject that tickles my fancy.

I like the "based on" "adapted" and "inspired by" solutions. I would use the latter if most was my own and I used up to 30% of the choreography, adapted if most of it was (an attempt at) dancing the choreo, say 80% and based on in all other cases.

I guess if someone is an extremely bad dancer it is not that flattering to the creator of the piece to be credited anyway, so he or she may not object to it not happening. Especially if members of the GP only see the bad version.

I'd rather see beginners performing something their own teacher made to suit their skills. Even if it consist of just a few moves. I'm not sure why so many beginner videos include choreography that would only look good on an intermediate.

Originally Posted by david

I am by all means not trying to whine about plagiarism on behalf of either the famous dancers, or the plagiarists, or semi-famous dancers or non-famous dancers.

No you don't seem to

Originally Posted by Nouria

No you don't seem to

TG for that :) Sometimes things can get so conscrewed when you write them and someone else then reads them. Had to make sure :0

Heyyyy David, no don't worry!

I just don't know how the initial post of mine went so into direction of that plagiarism-topic.
My idea of taken songs went more into the direction that you found THE PERFECT interpretation of it and then you look at other dancers dancing to the same song and you always feel disappointed because you have this idea that other dancer embodies and it's sort of THE THING for you. I felt sort of stupid to be so fixated on certain interpretations, but as I wrote, those songs for me are owned in a way.

Originally Posted by Nouria

Heyyyy David, no don't worry!

I just don't know how the initial post of mine went so into direction of that plagiarism-topic.
My idea of taken songs went more into the direction that you found THE PERFECT interpretation of it and then you look at other dancers dancing to the same song and you always feel disappointed because you have this idea that other dancer embodies and it's sort of THE THING for you. I felt sort of stupid to be so fixated on certain interpretations, but as I wrote, those songs for me are owned in a way.

Well, I didnt want it to - that's why I started the spin off threads :) I felt the intention of the thread you posted to be as you describe and didnt want to pollute it with all this other stuff :) lol

LOL, I think we ALL feel kind of stuck and fixated on certain interpretations at times. (sometimes those "times" are more like like years!)

Originally Posted by david

Would you catch plagiarism of choreography or sequences of movement if they are so badly executed that you no longer recognize them?

Is it still plagiarism?

ADDING THIS: is it OK to plagerise a choreography because it is so badly executed that you no longer recognize it as the original work? Not talking about adapted choreographies - that's a different discussion.

Interesting question! Well if it is so badly executed you don't recognize it then who would ever know? Although ethically I do think you should give credit whenever you perform someone else's choreography. I have seen this many times when someone is using a piece of music and then it takes me awhile to realize they are doing so and so's choreogrpahy, but with bad technique. Fine, but often times no credit is given and that is not right in my opinion.

Well this happened to me! I never dance to someone else's choreo as I'm mostly an improv dancer and I have my own style. However, several years ago a club where I was a house dancer at decided to hire a second dancer. She was to dance the first show, I danced the second. She came by for about 2 months to watch my show. Well lo and behold, her first night she tried to imitate everything I did! It was so obvious, the band just looked at me as I sat at my table by the stage. I was freaked out because now I had to scramble and change my show with about 20 minutes notice but at the same time I was dying laughing. It was clearly an imitation but without the technique behind it. She did some things very well (the tricks like splits) but the things that were unique to me, were totally botched.

It's always been my motto if you can copy me go ahead, that means I'm not doing anything special. That night I changed from doing sword and floorwork to cane and ayoub and the club went crazy and loved it. I never did sword again. Thank-you miss copy cat!

What about paying someone for a class and them teaching you someone elses work?
I went to a random class and the girl teaching lead us through a choro of a famous dancers video that she gave credit for having used but... I felt shafted! If I wanted to copy her I'd buy her video now teach me something new! I told the teacher so and she was mordified. Hope she comes up with her own stuff now! HA!

I actually had dug into this issue for someone because a dancer had asked my opinion a couple years ago I guess because of me having run ins with copyright law in photography.

But most everyone here has covered the basics in that if you go to a class or workshop, then you are allowed to perform what you are taught as well as the using someone else's material and giving credit.

The only thing I wanted to add is having the ability to do anything about it: If you want to truly copyright your routine you have to have performed it in public and preferably record the performance so you have proof. And if you ever wanted to go after someone for damages; you should register your copyright.

(This applies to photos as well. You can sue someone for takedown and basic financial loss with a copyright that is automatic; but you cannot sue for any sort of grander damages unless that copyright is actually registered).