Thread: choreography, plagerism, credits

So, lets discuss and try to at least get a feel of where the boundaries between;
individual adaptation of a pre-existing choreography by someone else
making your own choreography with elements from other choreographies

...in relation to plagerism (where does the line go?)
...in relation to requirement/need/appropriateness of disclosure/aknowledgement of original composer/choreographer

...whether it is in class, a workshop or stage work doesn't matter :)

Added: I'd just like to point out that I just started this thread out of curiousity and for the sake of discussion. I didn't start the thread in relation to any current issues I am experiencing :)

Originally Posted by david

...whether it is in class, a workshop or stage work doesn't matter :)

Ah, but DOES it matter? ..g.:

Attribution is pretty easy to do in class or in a workshop. But depending on the show, it may not be so easy if there's no program, there's no MC, etc. And depending on the context, attribution could make all the difference.

Originally Posted by GenevieveOfAtlanta

Attribution is pretty easy to do in class or in a workshop. But depending on the show, it may not be so easy if there's no program, there's no MC, etc. And depending on the context, attribution could make all the difference.

I agree it's easy to do in a class or workshop, and if it's at a show where I can have the MC give credit I certainly make mention of that fact in my short intro I hand to the MC.

But what do you do when it's not possible? For example at fair or some other event where there isn't a MC or any way to give credit? This is something I've laid awake thinking about many times.

Patricia

Also what do you do when you take private classes with a teacher so you can create a choreography to a piece of music you like and after weeks of working on it, the teacher gives a workshop using the same music and choreography you paid her to help you with before you have even had a chance to perform it?

This happened to me many years ago, and let me tell you it really stung when she said to me just before the workshop Oh, you don't mind if I teach the choreography we worked on do you? I was in too much shock to really say anything.

Originally Posted by ra-chell

Also what do you do when you take private classes with a teacher so you can create a choreography to a piece of music you like and after weeks of working on it, the teacher gives a workshop using the same music and choreography you paid her to help you with before you have even had a chance to perform it?

That's absolutely apalling. In response, I reckon I'd have said:

"Oh sure, no problem! So when am I getting my refund for all those private lessons?"

,m::

Actually, I'm sure I'd have been too shocked and angry to make more than a vague choking noise. That SUCKS.

I never perform other people's choreographies, so I guess it's not so much of an issue for me. In general, I'd consider that:

1. If I performed a combo that I'd picked up in X teacher's class but to different music, no credit due.
2. If I performed a combo that I'd picked up in X teacher's class to the same music in the same place as he/she taught me: credit due.
3. If I taught a combo in class that I'd learned from X teacher, I would always give credit to that teacher (helps my students to know who is teaching good stuff so they go along!)

If I knew I was going to be performing in a show that had no MC/programme, I'd perform something that didn't require me to give credit to someone - I'd rather come upwith something new than risk someone thinking I was plagiarising.

It's easy for me to have such hard 'n' fast rules on it, since I always do my own thing anyway!

Originally Posted by wigglewhiz

That's absolutely apalling. In response, I reckon I'd have said:

"Oh sure, no problem! So when am I getting my refund for all those private lessons?"

That's a great response and excatly what I should have said! I figured out later I spent something close to $300 in privates working on that piece. Hinder sight is always 20/20 sadly.

Originally Posted by ra-chell

I figured out later I spent something close to $300 in privates working on that piece.

I hope you're not giving that teacher any more of your hard-earned $$$. What a rip! ,m::

Originally Posted by david

So, lets discuss and try to at least get a feel of where the boundaries between;
individual adaptation of a pre-existing choreography by someone else
making your own choreography with elements from other choreographies

...in relation to plagerism (where does the line go?)
...in relation to requirement/need/appropriateness of disclosure/aknowledgement of original composer/choreographer

...whether it is in class, a workshop or stage work doesn't matter :)

Hmmm...what about a combo that you learned or figured out from a video/youtube/class/workshop and inserted into an original choreography? I studied videos of different male dancers, some performers, some just dudes on the street, doing Tahtib in order to to give a cane choreography I was working on a stronger "look." I took some of the moves, or elements of the moves to flavor my choreography, but I considered the choreography to be mine since it was to different music and I certainly wasn't imitating a full choreography, just placing some combos that I really liked in places that I hope fit the music. I often find inspiration or pick up new moves simply by watching other dancers, but I'm not sure if I would credit that person for an individual combo in a write up for a show or hafla although as dancers we may know who was the originator and could say so to a class or give the specific reference when asked (i.e. Soheir Zaki hips or this combo was from such and such) Now certainly if I was trying emulate a specific dancer's style or am performing a choreography that originated from somebody else I would certainly credit them when able, even if I modified it a bit.

I suppose though, it can be a double edged sword if you are a choreographer and somebody changes your work so much that you don't recognize it or it is performed rather badly--would you want to be credited?? I'm not a big enough bean to have people dying to do my choreographies so I'm not sure if I'll ever have this dilemma!!

I

f I performed a combo that I'd picked up in X teacher's class but to different music, no credit due.
If I performed a combo that I'd picked up in X teacher's class to the same music in the same place as he/she taught me: credit due.
If I taught a combo in class that I'd learned from X teacher, I would always give credit to that teacher (helps my students to know who is teaching good stuff so they go along!)

yes, that is what I was thinking, should have read more closely 1st!

Ah, Ra-Chell... that is indeed a case of bad communication skills in the situation you describe in regard to what you are paying for and what you are getting for your money.

I rarely have requests for exclusive choreographies. However, our academy service prices reflect specifically that exclusive choreographies have an exclusivity fee added to the choreography package fee. So - I would assume that our dancers know that none of the choreographies they work on with us are exclusive unless specifically paid for. Thus, any choreography that happens within the academy are the domain of the academy whether it is in a private or a public relation.

The fact that I rarely teach choreographies I work on with individual students to others and that I produce new choreographies/different sets of choreographies for classes and workshops is a habitual way of working of mine - not a rule.

Whereas I can understand where you are coming from and that the sum spent indeed is a substancial sum - $300 is not a large sum to spend on private lessons to learn a choreography without paying for exclusive rights to the material.

Now you may ask - well, what was I paying for then? and that is indeed a valid question. You pay for the individually customized instruction, the exposure to the material and the luxury of spending time on the points in the choreography that you individually require extra attention on.

I do think that the teacher's method of communicating that he/she was going to use the same choreography in a workshop was rather untactful, however.

Just for reference in case anyone is interested - here is the link to the EDA choreography service prices

I always think it's sad that people are so guarded about choreographies. I always think credit if possible, but don't look like a fool doing it. But if you don't credit and afterwards someone says "loved your choreo" say - "thanks it was Randas!"

I can 'see' other dancers through their choreographies. Ah that ones Aida, that ones Randa, ooh look there's Khaled. To me, it's as obvious as if someone came on doing "Thriller". How wonderful if all our choreographies live on after we've gone. How sad if there's no record and everything is lost, and we go to our graves clutching a copyright.

Isn't it great that everyones dancing around to Thriller doing the Zombie routine after all these years. They were practicing it last night in the studio next door to mine last night. I'm sure that all these people who dance to Thriller don't get permission from the choreographer, or credit the choreographer. It brings continued joy to so many people.

When I teach I tell everyone the source of the moves, i think it means that they will get to know what style they like and perhaps, seek out the 'master teachers' for lessons one day.

I was "raised" that you don't just copy a choreo from a performance video. But obviously you can be inspired by something you see on a video. I must admit I was disappointed in some local dancers who, having seen that Rachel Brice/Mardi Love duet to Tijuana Taxi, decided they wanted to do something similar (cool) but chose the same track, the same schtick, and enough of the same movements in the same places for me to recognise them. I don't know if they ever credited it - I do hope so - but to me, it was lame. Sure, audiences who'd never watched the original lapped it up and thought it was funny, but I just found it so utterly derivative that I couldn't enjoy it.

Maybe it's a generational thing. In My Day, you'd chew off your own arm rather than wear/do/copy anything someone else did. Sure, we all wore broadly the same things, but if you saw someone in a particular kind of dress your instinct would be "damn! Why didn't I think of that? Now I can't wear one!", and you'd try to come up with your own take on it that was not a direct copy.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

Isn't it great that everyones dancing around to Thriller doing the Zombie routine after all these years. They were practicing it last night in the studio next door to mine last night. I'm sure that all these people who dance to Thriller don't get permission from the choreographer, or credit the choreographer. It brings continued joy to so many people.

When I teach I tell everyone the source of the moves, i think it means that they will get to know what style they like and perhaps, seek out the 'master teachers' for lessons one day.

I think the biggest differences here are that they aren't being paid for the performance and the number is well-known enough that they aren't perceived as passing it off as their own work.

Our dance form is interesting to me in its relationship to choreography. The early forms prized improvisation above choreography, then through its development choreography became more common - *but* we are still one of the only dance forms where a professional dancer is expected to write their own choreographies. In most other dance forms, a dancer who can also choreograph for themselves is a rare find!

For myself, I would tend to follow much the same rules as wigglewhiz listed earlier in giving credit and when I am teaching I always credit specific combinations or signature moves.

True story - at a show I was dancing with a band and they played a song I had never heard, so I just danced it how I felt it. Afterwards, another dancer was upset that I had performed her choreography without permission....but I hadn't!! I had never seen her choreography. What could I do? I explained to her that I had been improv'ing to a song I didn't know, asked her for the name of the song, and complimented her on her musical interpretation. Definitely one of the weirdest aftershow conversations I have had with another dancer LOL

Yeah, and we also have broad conventions, so it's incredibly stupid to say, for instance "OMGZ she shimmies in that bit TOO, she totally STOLE my IDEA". There are going to be broad similarities between a lot of BDers when dancing to the same piece of music.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I was "raised" that you don't just copy a choreo from a performance video.

I have had a great deal of personal satisfaction and enlightenment from learning and copying choreos from the old movies, "Legends" videos, and Reda movies, as well as Raqia's technique videos and Dina's performance videos.

Personally, since I can't get private lessons with Dina every week, studying and analyzing her performance vids helps me to understand (I think) how she hears the music and how she expresses the music through her movements.

I buy all the Little Egypt videos for the same reason -- learn the choreography taught and hopefully learn something about how Aida, Magdy, Dina, Randa, etc. hears the music.

As far as PERFORMING those choreographies, most of the time I don't. I HAVE done so at student haflas, mostly just to extend the length of the party! I feel weird enough doing choreographies I learned at a workshop at workshop shows -- but I still have that plaguing self-doubt that makes me feel like I don't have any business choreographing because I don't know EVERYTHING just yet.

Anyway, for the most part I agree with you -- although LEARNING choreos from videos can be very educational, PERFORMING them is usually not the best idea.

I think the problem with other people's choreos is that it's very rare that they fit your body and dance style exactly. for the most part I'm unsatisfied with how I look doing someone else's choreography. Love to learn a Yousry choreography - look TERRIBLE doing them. It's been very rare to find a video or workshop that taught a choreography where I felt comfortable with every single section.

But I've stumbled upon a genius choreographer (Dr. Mo) whose work I love and I'm very thrilled to learn and perform his choreographies and credit him, so perhaps more people will know of him. [Before Ahlan Cairo Nights in Montreal, I had heard of him but didn't realize how much I would love his work - I went up thinking I was mainly there for Randa.] And I think I look good doing his choreographies - they seem to suit my body and leave enough room for my own personality to shine through. So, what can I say? I'm going to keep learning them and performing them if I like them enough - and crediting him of course.

I would think that if you were primarily a choreographer rather than a dancer, you would want to see that dancers were performing your choreographies - in that way, you can almost achieve eternity/live on past your own dancing and even life.

Originally Posted by david

Ah, Ra-Chell... that is indeed a case of bad communication skills in the situation you describe in regard to what you are paying for and what you are getting for your money.

I rarely have requests for exclusive choreographies. However, our academy service prices reflect specifically that exclusive choreographies have an exclusivity fee added to the choreography package fee. So - I would assume that our dancers know that none of the choreographies they work on with us are exclusive unless specifically paid for. Thus, any choreography that happens within the academy are the domain of the academy whether it is in a private or a public relation.

The fact that I rarely teach choreographies I work on with individual students to others and that I produce new choreographies/different sets of choreographies for classes and workshops is a habitual way of working of mine - not a rule.

Whereas I can understand where you are coming from and that the sum spent indeed is a substancial sum - $300 is not a large sum to spend on private lessons to learn a choreography without paying for exclusive rights to the material.

Now you may ask - well, what was I paying for then? and that is indeed a valid question. You pay for the individually customized instruction, the exposure to the material and the luxury of spending time on the points in the choreography that you individually require extra attention on.

I do think that the teacher's method of communicating that he/she was going to use the same choreography in a workshop was rather untactful, however.

Just for reference in case anyone is interested - here is the link to the EDA choreography service prices

Thanks David, I will keep that in mind should I ever ask someone for help again. I did not know that teachers charge a exclusivity fee. Now that you've explained it, yes it was indeed a case of bad communication. No mention was made about "exclusive choreographies have an exclusivity fee added to the choreography package fee."
I simply had a piece of music I want to perform to and tailor it to something that would be 'me' not someone else. I do know what my strong points are and wanted to show case them but needed help. In the '90s $300 was a lot of money for me to spend on something like that and then to have her teach it in a workshop which I was taking did sting. To add insult to injury I had planned to perform the number the next day in front of the same people who had taken the workshop. It always left a bitter taste in my mouth. On the bright side, I looked for another teacher which changed my dance style for the better.

Originally Posted by mahsati

I think the biggest differences here are that they aren't being paid for the performance and the number is well-known enough that they aren't perceived as passing it off as their own work.

I think the teacher who was teaching them was being paid, and sometimes professional groups rehearse at my studio, so i can't say for sure if they were going to be, or were not going to be paid (it's a really big studio with about 12 large rooms, a green room, and a theatre etc.). One of the studios has a glass roof where you can see Edinburgh castle as you are practicing. I digress :-)

I believe in dance Karma. If someone passes something off as their own, it will come back around. Either the dance won't suit their frame, or they'll be ask "hey can you make something similar and teach it to us?" or whatever.

Plus, its pretty obvious to any professional dancer to spot when someone is 'channelling' another dancer either with moves or with choreo, and therefore kind of embarrassing for the dancer concerned unless they have credited.

Originally Posted by ra-chell

Thanks David, I will keep that in mind should I ever ask someone for help again. I did not know that teachers charge a exclusivity fee. Now that you've explained it, yes it was indeed a case of bad communication. No mention was made about "exclusive choreographies have an exclusivity fee added to the choreography package fee."
I simply had a piece of music I want to perform to and tailor it to something that would be 'me' not someone else. I do know what my strong points are and wanted to show case them but needed help. In the '90s $300 was a lot of money for me to spend on something like that and then to have her teach it in a workshop which I was taking did sting. To add insult to injury I had planned to perform the number the next day in front of the same people who had taken the workshop. It always left a bitter taste in my mouth. On the bright side, I looked for another teacher which changed my dance style for the better.

I can totally feel your pain on this - and I'm sure that many people are not aware of the right to exclusivity and the terms involved. I just wanted to put it out there so people will know.
At least you knew the choreography BETTER than everyone else when you did perform it, yes?

HUGS

Originally Posted by ra-chell

This happened to me many years ago, and let me tell you it really stung when she said to me just before the workshop Oh, you don't mind if I teach the choreography we worked on do you? I was in too much shock to really say anything.

That's absolutely disgusting! ,m::

She should have informed you about exclusivity before the fact. If it was not made clear and she decided later that she had just made up a great choreography and wanted to reuse it, she should have actually asked you, not "informed-asked" you.

Originally Posted by ra-chell

Also what do you do when you take private classes with a teacher so you can create a choreography to a piece of music you like and after weeks of working on it, the teacher gives a workshop using the same music and choreography you paid her to help you with before you have even had a chance to perform it?

This happened to me many years ago, and let me tell you it really stung when she said to me just before the workshop Oh, you don't mind if I teach the choreography we worked on do you? I was in too much shock to really say anything.

Oh I only read this NOW! That's like taking someone elses baby of its mother's arms and selling it in front of her! Awesomely appalling! Would she not offer you the workshop fees?

Originally Posted by david

Thus, any choreography that happens within the academy are the domain of the academy whether it is in a private or a public relation.

Yes, that makes sense in a situation where the instructor is either teaching a choreography they've previously written or has been commissioned to create a new choreography for the student, whereas, in ra-chell's case, she seems to have collaborated with her teacher on the choreography.

I once learned an instructor's choreography in private lessons, and, yes, in that case I was paying for her personal attention and had no expectation of exclusivity. I also, however, brought a solo I was working on to that instructor to have her help me flesh it out and fill in the blanks. The resulting choreography was thus a collaborative effort, and the teacher could not have retaught it without violating my partial ownership of the material. If this is the situation ra-chell was in, her instructor was definitely in the wrong, probably legally as well as ethically.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

... When I teach I tell everyone the source of the moves, i think it means that they will get to know what style they like and perhaps, seek out the 'master teachers' for lessons one day.

My teacher would tell us were she learned a particular move or combination. She has demonstrated a few moves that she had learned from Raqia Hassan. I really enjoyed those moves and as a result, I've bought one or Raqia's technique videos. I would love to take a class with her if she came to my area.

I adapt combinations all the time from other instructors to my own choreographies & music. Good heavens, there are only so many movements the human body can make. Look at ballet and figure skating. It would be insane for them to credit every single combination back to the original creator, that would take then entire length of the song. I thought the purpose of learning a combination from a teacher/workshop was to be able to apply it in your own dances later.

Second to that, chances are, when you DO go to do the combination later, you've probably changed it as you've practiced it so that it only resembles the original anyway, because hopefully you've inserted your own personality and "story" into the choreography, and hopefully it is fitted to the particular song you've chosen to use.

If I go to do a choreo and I feel that I've used quite a bit of someone else's combinations, then I might feel inclined to say I was inspired by that artist. However, unless I'm using basically the same choreography they taught, to the same music, I'm not going to say "choreography by xyz" because I'm assuming that a well-known choreographer does not want to be falsely credited with a product he/she may not like.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

I think the problem with other people's choreos is that it's very rare that they fit your body and dance style exactly. for the most part I'm unsatisfied with how I look doing someone else's choreography. Love to learn a Yousry choreography - look TERRIBLE doing them. It's been very rare to find a video or workshop that taught a choreography where I felt comfortable with every single section.

Ditto! I have to dance how I feel not how someone else does. So I never do other people's choreographies unless I am in their troupe. But I always create my own and of course I get ideas for moves and combos but I don't use them to such an extent that I feel I have to give credit. We all do similar moves and combos, so unless it is someone's signature move or combo then why mention it? However, when I teach I will mention where I got a move or idea from, I also want my students to know who teaches what and where my education comes from.

Originally Posted by Nepenthe

I would think that if you were primarily a choreographer rather than a dancer, you would want to see that dancers were performing your choreographies - in that way, you can almost achieve eternity/live on past your own dancing and even life.

Absolutely!! I saw this a lot at the Nile Group where so many people are performing choreographies they learned from the teachers there. In fact, even in their rules for the competition they state that "The choreographers name will not be mentioned in the contest." They don't bother to give credit because it would probably just take too long since so many people are dancing to other people's choreogrpahies. But I do think it makes the teacher's feel good that people learn and remember and are performing their choreographies, I imagine it boost their egos.

Originally Posted by ra-chell

Also what do you do when you take private classes with a teacher so you can create a choreography to a piece of music you like and after weeks of working on it, the teacher gives a workshop using the same music and choreography you paid her to help you with before you have even had a chance to perform it?

This happened to me many years ago, and let me tell you it really stung when she said to me just before the workshop Oh, you don't mind if I teach the choreography we worked on do you? I was in too much shock to really say anything.

I think I can top this. After coming up with my first very own full choreography (while studying with three teachers at one time) one teacher wanted to use it for herself, another one wanted to teach it to the class! So I was paying them to use my choreography! Needless to say, I too was speechless, although to the one who wanted to use it for herself, I did manage to squeak out, "can I use it first?" To the other teachers, the other students were so mad, that they told her off about it before they quit!

BTW, neither one of these teachers is on Bhuz.

Originally Posted by Fotia

I think I can top this. After coming up with my first very own full choreography (while studying with three teachers at one time) one teacher wanted to use it for herself, another one wanted to teach it to the class! So I was paying them to use my choreography! Needless to say, I too was speechless, although to the one who wanted to use it for herself, I did manage to squeak out, "can I use it first?" To the other teachers, the other students were so mad, that they told her off about it before they quit!

BTW, neither one of these teachers is on Bhuz.

oh that is tacky!!
just super tacky!
taking your students choreo?

I think there are a couple issues to consider- what is legal & what is ethical- legally, I believe a work needs to be changed by 10% to be considered a new, different work. But if you want your work to be protected, you had better have it recorded & registered, or you don't have a legal leg to stand on.

but there are community standards & ethics to consider too-
Thank you David for pointing out the exclusivity issue- I think it is frustrating as a teacher when students are upset that I teach the same choreo I taught them to another class. I don't do it often because I like creating new things but taking a class, or even private lessons does not entitle anyone to exclusive rights to my work, even if I develop a choreo during that class or with that class in mind. For an individualized, exclusive choreo which I develop for someone, I have a separate fee which includes 2 hours of instruction- further instruction requires further payment.

But, I think it is another matter, not to mention just plain silly, to teach a choreography class, which purpose is to learn how to create a choreo, and not grant full rights to a choreo they are helping to create. That is the whole purpose when I teach a choreography class- I give suggestions & tweak things & harp on technique, but it's kind of like a writing class, i wouldn't claim credit for my student's work under my tutelage. Now, if I liked a choreo enough that I wanted to use it for something, I might ask if I could use it, BUT never before they had a chance to debut there work AND with full credit given to the student as co-creator. I might ask if she wanted to teach it to the class for an upcoming performance, for example, or I might even take elements of the choreo and rework it for a class piece later on- but again, only with permission, proper credit, etc. Back to the writing comparison, I see this as akin to asking if a student would like her work included in the school's annual publication, or using their paper as a writing sample in future classes.

On another note, I think there is a lot more opportunity that you can *create* for sharing all kinds of information. I have been asked to compile & edit programs, and so I can insist that dancers give credit to musicians & choreographers in the program, even for a small show.

Having done the programs for our local shows for the past few years, here are some words that can be used if you have the luxury a program for your performance:
*choreography by: okay, that's pretty self explanitory
*adapted from a choreography by: when you stick pretty closely to someone else's choreo but have changed a few parts to give it your own flavor or interpret it at your technical level
*inspired by: for example you loved the music & performance by another dancer, might throw in a couple of the same movements that seemed particularly apt, but it really is your own interpretation, tho it may be in their style
I see entries like 'choreography by Melissa, inspired by Dr. Mo Geddawi' usually when someone has been particularly moved by instruction in a particular style- like when someone has just come back from an intensive round of lessons & privates & wants to share with the community what they have been learning

From what I have seen here, most dancers are have been more than happy for the opportunity to share more information about what they are doing and where they draw their inspiration from. For shorter shows, like at the fair, you can sometimes preface or wrap up your act with a quick summary of the style(s) you will be presenting- including if you are presenting a special choreo by xxx. For restaurant shows, most people don't even care & I don't think it would necessarily be an appropriate venue to say anything at all about style/inspiration/choreo credit unless asked. Now, if you are asked, it is good form to be honest & say something like "I know, I just love that choreography. I learned it from (dancer y), she is so inspiring!"

in my solo shows I dont use other people's choreographies, but in group we do because we asked the artists to perform these since they are thaught in public workshops...
if I am in the competition I do make sure I get permission from the artist.
I believe in individual creativity and talent...not all choregraphies made for us...but some dancers learn chroegraphies obviously to perform them, then the creator should mention to the students not to perform them in public so what is the point of learning them if they are not going to be performed. Most workshops I have been to artists encourages them to be performed.