Thread: Why doesn't this size 14 choreography fit me?!

Originally Posted by casbahdance

I agree with this statement, especially the bolded section.

And, you know, I really don't think group lessons are the place to get that type of mentoring.

Sure, advanced level students need to learn advanced technique and that's do-able in a class, but developing one's style or, as Tourbeau describes it, "develop[ing] fully as artists," is something that needs individual attention.

"Regular classes" could mean different things depending on what resources you have access to. If you live near a master teacher and can afford a private lesson twice a week, that could be a "regular class." If your budget is more modest, your mentor is very busy, or you know another dancer at your level, your "regular class" might be a semi-private lesson once a month. Unfortunately, "regular classes" to a lot of dancers is a mixed-level assortment of dancers, and taught by someone who isn't a master teacher. It's very difficult to get any individualized attention or mentoring in the latter.

Of course, there is still the issue that one can be a master dancer, but not the sort of teacher who understands how to mentor students and develop them as unique artists. I think we've all seen dancers who are very, very good, and they were trained by an excellent dancer, but they are clones of their teachers and not individuals with their own sense of artistic style.

Tying back into the original idea, very few people will be able to develop themselves only from watching DVDs, or for that matter, by attending workshops. Sometimes I find myself working on other dancers' choreographies where I can't do certain parts. I can't do long spins (inner ear problems), floorwork (bad knees), or a lot of work on demi-pointe (skeletal foot problems). LOL--this would be the part of the workshop where I get to "develop myself as a artist" while I try to figure out what to do to that fits the timing, transitions, and style/choreographer's vision without interfering with what the other workshop participants are doing....

I think the point is that many of us have physical limitations or personal preferences that make one-size-fits-all choreographies pretty, well, ill fitting. Just because you can't or don't choose to do certain moves, you can still have something valuable to contribute as an artist to the conversation. Where do you go to learn how to work with your personal abilities? Videos and other prepackaged learning experiences can only take you so far.

Originally Posted by elljay

David, to address your point about removing the personal in-detail stylization...I think this can be a bit dangerous. If you remove the choreographer's detailed nuances, aren't we just moving back to teaching movement instead of dance? Or are you saying that choreography, in a classroom (or DVD classroom) setting should simply be taught as basic movement, and its up to the student to insert their nuances and style?

Hey Elljay :) I think that the more the mainstream and non-specific target group - the more mainstream and non-specific the material needs to be as well. As a result; beginner choreographies are less "involved" than advanced choreographies. Open level workshop choreographies are less "involved" than specific level workshop choreographies. Class choreographies are less "involved" than choreographies taught in privates.

Now, before someone goes - but that takes away the essence of dance in it all! I will say that my definition of "less involved" seems to be "alot more involved" than some.

So, in a way - I am saying what you said in your post that I bolded out.

To me its kind of related to how much of a privilage I as an instructor have in the form of time to correct and guide and mentor and coach. This is also affected by the expected level of "difficulty" and expected level of ability of the dancer(s) in question. That's what determines how indepth and detail oriented I get.

I cant stand it when beginner level material is presented as intermediate, intermediate presented as beginner, advanced presented as intermediate, intermediate presented as advanced. Intermediate presented as master etc etc etc. I also do not want mainstream concepts that a dancer of such and such level is suppose to know (and in fact are already present) to be heavily weighted in a private lesson. Equally, I dont want private lessons material to be heavily weighted in a mainstream class. Also, I dont want specifically intricately individually tailored material pertient to a dance instructor's brand and preference to inhibit the ability of the dancer to be visually pleasing. There are also some habits I just DONT want to have/teach. We all have enough of our own bad habits to worry about.

I also think that some dancers some times work around individual limitations by making it an element of stylization that they spend a lot of effort on perfecting for themselves. That doesn't mean that the same individual limitations are a fact for others (and they therefore do not need to spend the same effort on working around the limitation). I am more than happy to admit and say "this is not within my expertise" or "this is not a strong point of mine" and either get the information necessary to enable the dancer to do whatever they requested or refer them to someone that is more capable in that area. That doesn't make me incompetent, it makes me specific and aware of what my field of expertise and strong points are.

:)

Has no one mentioned that someone else's choreography isn't necessarily supposed to "fit" you? If a choreography is easily executed by all the students, where is the growth? One can learn simple, basic choreographies within one's comfort zone (or one's "size") until the cows come home. Once you have a basic sense of musicality, though, does that really make you a better dancer? Isn't it the challenge of learning choreographies that don't fit you that help you grow as a dancer?? To try new moves and adapt them to suit you, to learn the music and try on someone else's musicality, to absorb some of the essence of the master teacher, to take what works and discard what doesn't, isn't that the point of learning another's choreography in the first place?

oops, we were typing at the same time, David.

Another important aspect of dance aside from movement is also concepts of dance that we also teach. These also add to the amount of information expected to be taken in by a dancer and the expected content of the packages of information expected to be provided by an instructor, choreographer, coach or mentor.

Originally Posted by nasila

Has no one mentioned that someone else's choreography isn't necessarily supposed to "fit" you? If a choreography is easily executed by all the students, where is the growth? One can learn simple, basic choreographies within one's comfort zone (or one's "size") until the cows come home. Once you have a basic sense of musicality, though, does that really make you a better dancer? Isn't it the challenge of learning choreographies that don't fit you that help you grow as a dancer?? To try new moves and adapt them to suit you, to learn the music and try on someone else's musicality, to absorb some of the essence of the master teacher, to take what works and discard what doesn't, isn't that the point of learning another's choreography in the first place?

oops, we were typing at the same time, David.

But of course! :) Absolutely :)

Yes, we were :) theeeehee :)

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Nah, Mo's *brain* is closer to your own. And his choreos are differently challenging than Raqia's - I've not studied with her but I've *seen them* - and the emphasis that I noted was footwork. Also, having done Winter Warmup with Dr Mo some years back, I can't say enough good things about him as a teacher. He drills a lot also.

I will hopefully go to WW next year, when he is teaching again, my only reservation being that I would really like now to work with an Egyptian *belly dancer* rather than someone so exclusively folkloric and feety. I believe he himself encourages doing some classes with women to get the *feeling*. He's more about the steps.

But he's still very much worth the trouble to go to!

I have a number of Dr. Mo's workshop videos from Little Egypt. What I like about them is that he stresses clarity of movement which is something I need to work on. It is helpful to see the first few rows of workshop participants in the video frame so that one can not only follow his movements and instructions, but see those movements translated on several different female body types.

I am spending much of this holiday weekend with Dr. Mo's Baladi You'kal workshop dvd. It is a bigger, more theatrical and over the top baladi style than I normally do, but I find that I like it a lot because it has some sassy humor to it. Intricate footwork has always been a problem for me and Dr. Mo's teaching style has allowed me understand what he is doing and why. And, of course, being on dvd I can watch the explanations over and over again.

Getting back to the original question of topic regarding "fit", one of the most valuable lessons I learned was from Jim Boz who encourages dancers to modulate textures. He suggests that if a movement or step or combo doesn't look good on your body or doesn't feel right to you, change to movement that you can do and that does look right on your body that has the same texture and mood.

Example, I don't spin well--especially multiple fast spins. When learning a choreo at a workshop I might substitute one slower spin for two fast ones or one spin and one hip circle for two spins so that I keep the weight changes and prep for the next combo and not fight one combo and then lose half of what is coming with the next one. Does that make sense. Same thing with camels. They don't look that great on my body. Doesn't mean I don't practice them, but I may substitute a Cairo style 8 for two camels or do some other gooey movement instead.

Personally, I don't have the option to take class from several different instructors. If I want to learn more about a particular style that my instructor is not teaching, my only recourse is traveling to workshops, traveling to take private lessons, and dvds. Workshops and privates mean a 4-5 hour drive each way at a minimum, so dvds become very valuable tools.

Souzan

First, to Nasila...

I think you're right that there is something to be gained by learning choreographies that are challenging for us. That's why I keep doing Hadia choreography videos - the footwork really challenges me and I need to get better at footwork.

However, when we're performing a choreography, we might as well pick one that suits us - or change the parts of a challenging one to suit us. After all, performance is an opportunity to show our best selves, not to show that we're working hard.

Originally Posted by Souzan

I am spending much of this holiday weekend with Dr. Mo's Baladi You'kal workshop dvd. It is a bigger, more theatrical and over the top baladi style than I normally do, but I find that I like it a lot because it has some sassy humor to it. Intricate footwork has always been a problem for me and Dr. Mo's teaching style has allowed me understand what he is doing and why. And, of course, being on dvd I can watch the explanations over and over again.

That's the video that I've spent the last month working - and performed the choreography at a recent hafli. It's the one where I said it left so much room for personal interpretation and nuances, that I admire that about it. I felt like I was able to inhabit it with my own personality, layering myself on top of it. I also felt free to make little changes, like he always seems to do the same sort of figure 8s (back to front, horizontal) - I changed some of mine to another kind that I don't have a name for - the back to front but with almost an upside U shape coming over and in. (My teacher that teaches these doesn't use terminology for moves so I don't have a name for it - I'm sure it has a name.) I changed some of the hand/arm positions to make it more interesting - and when I performed it, I was performing in a semi-circular room, so I added a lot of directional changes, changes in my gaze to one side or the other, etc. I think because that choreography is so simple, it allows the dancer to shine through it and make the adjustments as needed.

I never expected to perform someone else's choreography as the whole of my performance, but this one just felt so right - I loved the song, and didn't want to do anything different to the music than what he wrote.

Isn't that a wonderful video? I liked that he said many of the same things in it that he said in the baladi workshop I took with him in the spring, so it was like reviewing my workshop notes in terms of concepts and theories. I'm going to work on his 2007 Melaya Leff video next.

What I love about him is that he tosses in little nuggets that are easy to remember--things you knew but need to remind yourself of and interesting observations about the dance and dancers. I forget which workshop it was, but he talked about in Egypt every woman is beautiful when she dances. And I love that he always reminds dancers to have something to say while dancing and to speak with clear language in your movements and intention. He clearly love the dance and enjoys teaching.

I like his little touches of drama in the musical interpretation.

I just ordered the CD with the music for Baladi You'kal. Having so much fun with it and can't wait to perform it somewhere. Like you, with my own little variations--particularly want to add some shoulder accents and shoulder shimmies in some spots. I was a little confused by one thing near the end of the choreo where he does a variation on the step-hip walk forward where it looks like he is flexing his pecs. Hard to tell since you aren't seeing it from the front.

Souzan

What's the sound like on those Dr. Mo dvds? Can you actually hear what he's saying? I ask because some of the LE vids suffer from bad audio.

Thanks :)

Originally Posted by aziyade

What's the sound like on those Dr. Mo dvds? Can you actually hear what he's saying? I ask because some of the LE vids suffer from bad audio.

Thanks :)

The 2008 one is pretty good - it's a dual-CD set and is better quality than previous years. He has a pretty clear voice too, which helps. He also doesn't compete with the music - he talks when the music isn't playing.

I just watched the 2007 melaya leff DVD and it's much harder to hear.

I'm looking forward to the 2009 DVD - I was at the workshop in Montreal and had so much fun. I only wish they had filmed it in Montreal (they filmed it in Miami) because it would be a nice souvenir to see pregnant lil' me dancing around in the front row. Besides I was having so much fun.

My favourite Dr Mo observation thus far was when he was explaining where to put hands and arms, and stressing that you shouldn't wave them about in front of your body. "God gave you all this beautiful *gesticulates at torso*, why do you want to cover it up?"

I love his little reminders to dancers where he imitates what he is seeing--he sees the mistakes and corrects them without calling attention to any one dancer. Most of his LE workshop dvds are pretty easy to hear what he is saying. I have a Dandash LE workshop video where it is hard to hear because music from the adjacent room is being picked up.

Dr. Mo speaks clearly with a strong voice so it is easy to undersand him.

Souzan