Thread: Why doesn't this size 14 choreography fit me?!

So, as a spin off of a point that Nepenthe made on the choreography, plagerism, credits thread I started yesterday I'd like to ask the following question:

Why do you feel that choreographies taught on DVDs, in workshops or in classes don't typically fit all dancers?

Is it stylistic?

Is it technical?

Is it visual?

I'd be interested in hearing what people's thought is on this.

I personally think that one issue on the choreographer's part is related to lack of ability to distance their personal individual in-detail stylization of movements and not conform to more universal concepts.

On the dancer's part one issue related to lack of knowledge and awareness of these universal concepts to be able to dechiper the material and separate the universal concepts from the personal individual in-detail stylization.

I dont know if that made sense - this is still kind of formulating in my head.

I'm all immersed in these subjects these days, huh? :)

universal concepts to be able to dechiper the material and separate the universal concepts from the personal individual in-detail stylization.

Huh?

Originally Posted by anala

universal concepts to be able to dechiper the material and separate the universal concepts from the personal individual in-detail stylization.

Huh?

sorry, let me explain what I meant there.

Universal concepts:
- path of movement, placement of body, core relationship, dimentional relationships, emphasis, intent, flow, character, expression, musicality, transitions, posture, level changes, floor patterns, step combinations, movement vocabulary, effort, strength, impact, layering, etc

personal individual in-depth stylization
- individually adaptation of the universal concepts

We still don't have the theoretical training that choreographers and dancers in other dance forms do. Most of us learn via the follow the bouncing butt method.

And for those of us who have little to no training in other dance forms, it's difficult to access that training. Ballet & modern dance have very strict rules about who is allowed to dance.

Originally Posted by catwomyn

We still don't have the theoretical training that choreographers and dancers in other dance forms do. Most of us learn via the follow the bouncing butt method.

And for those of us who have little to no training in other dance forms, it's difficult to access that training. Ballet & modern dance have very strict rules about who is allowed to dance.

Great observations... how would you say this impacts how a choreography fits a dancer/how a choreography is produced to fit in our dances?

Originally Posted by david

So, as a spin off of a point that Nepenthe made on the choreography, plagerism, credits thread I started yesterday I'd like to ask the following question:

Why do you feel that choreographies taught on DVDs, in workshops or in classes don't typically fit all dancers?

Is it stylistic?

Is it technical?

Is it visual?

I'd be interested in hearing what people's thought is on this.

I personally think that one issue on the choreographer's part is related to lack of ability to distance their personal individual in-detail stylization of movements and not conform to more universal concepts.

On the dancer's part one issue related to lack of knowledge and awareness of these universal concepts to be able to dechiper the material and separate the universal concepts from the personal individual in-detail stylization.

I dont know if that made sense - this is still kind of formulating in my head.

I'm all immersed in these subjects these days, huh? :)

I think technique applies, but also, I can't do some choreographies simply because I don't "get" them emotionally...so, I guess I could dance them fine but that's all you'd get...an "okay" performance without a lot of personality.

Originally Posted by david

Why do you feel that choreographies taught on DVDs, in workshops or in classes don't typically fit all dancers?

I think it's simple: we each hear the music differently.

Originally Posted by david

Great observations... how would you say this impacts how a choreography fits a dancer/how a choreography is produced to fit in our dances?

We have fewer resources for changing a choreo to fit our bodies without changing the essential look of it. If I learned a choreo from you, I'd have to adapt it to fit my physical self and skill level. If I can "get" what you are doing with the dance, based on the larger concepts, I have more ability to make it look good on my body without completely changing the piece.

As to how we produce choreos, bellydancers usually start with a piece of music we like. We noodle around until we find something we like, then work on refining. Again, having the conceptual framework might give more resources to work through the process more quickly. Adding contrast and texture would become more automatic. We'd have more ways to talk about what we were trying to achieve.


When I was first interested in bellydance back in the 70s, it was all improvisation and learn by following the bouncing butt. More formal teaching of the dance creation process might allow us to achieve more with our dance at whatever skill level. It might allow more people to reach a higher skill level more quickly. Even if a dancer chose to work completely improv, having those concepts in the back of the mind would help to create more alternatives.

Interesting thread! I wtore an article abotu this a few years ago! not necissarily WHY a choreography doesn't fit individuals but more as to why its important to find your personal individual in-detail sylization. I think that might be part of it since that takes a lot of time!

Here are a few more thoughts:

** When a dancer decides to make a choreography video, it is usually out of the motivation that she or he has something unique to offer as an artist to the larger dance community in terms of musical interpretation and/or movement vocabulary. By developing a choreography to show off the dancer's individual talents, it gives students who may not have otherwise had the opportunity to work with them a window into their creative process. Unfortunately, the statement, "This is who I am as a dancer" only fits the dancer saying it. A student who takes that video and attempts to master the routine in it is merely mimicking the teacher on the video during the learning process. Of course, a more sophisticated student will be able to take the material and adapt it to her or his own artistic sentiments, using it more as a template or a tool to develop a deeper understanding, and not using it as a canned piece. Lesser students memorize the material and never take it past the superficial level.

** Disregarding the fact that any yahoo with a video recorder and a DVD burner can be a star, most of these videos are being created by master teachers--many of whom may not dance to full choreographies in the real world. More advanced dancers often do partial or even full improv when they perform, so a DVD of a nailed-down choreography by them may have a bit of an inherent flatness to it in places. OTOH, truly great performers can take a rigid, over-rehearsed piece and perform it with great freshness a thousand times, but most students who are dancing at haflas and Renn Faires don't possess this level of talent and stagecraft. Advanced dancers may also "hold back" on video, knowing that the average student won't be able to master (or even possibly appreciate) more challenging content.

** DVDs are a static, one-way medium. If the student is learning the material incorrectly, the teacher cannot stick her/his head out of the TV screen and correct the student. If you're doing it wrong, who's going to tell you otherwise?

[continued]

[sorry, one more thought]

** When a student opts to study from DVDs, it may be indicative of a lack of something in that individual's overall educational experience. The student isn't getting sufficiently challenged in classes, or maybe the desired master teacher isn't near enough to study with, or perhaps there just isn't enough money to keep up with the student's appetite for learning. Sometimes videos are the only option. (You can't take lessons from someone who's dead....) At any rate, the student is somehow feeling that she or he isn't learning and growing as an artist as fast as she or he would like from regular classes, and supplemental information becomes necessary. DVDs are a patch for students who can't get the knowledge they want any other way. That doesn't automatically mean that the end product must be ill-fitting, one-size-fits-all choreographies, but in light of what may be motivating the problem, it isn't surprising that this is often the result. I suspect that the majority of serious students aren't getting the mentoring they need to develop fully as artists in their regular classes, and it's pretty difficult to get there on your own, no matter how many DVDs you buy.

Originally Posted by catwomyn

And for those of us who have little to no training in other dance forms, it's difficult to access that training. Ballet & modern dance have very strict rules about who is allowed to dance.

Huh? Is this really true where you live? Up here in Seattle, there are all kinds of studios that have open classes. Are you talking about taking class or performing?

Tina - What I am talking about are unwritten rules, lol. I'm 51 and fat. If I wanted to take a ballet class, I'd get all sorts of nasty comments and looks. Now at my age, that would just make me laugh but when I was younger it definitely made me feel out of place.

Just a little illustration. In college, I took a modern dance class. At the time I was about what would be a size 8 now. There was one other girl of about the same size. Every one else was skinny to very skinny. The teacher made a public announcement about how anyone who was overweight would not be allowed to take the next level up. Now this was not a dance majors class, it was a general class , mostly for dance majors to get teaching experience.

We chubby girls didn't suck any more than anyone else. We wern't looking for jobs as dancers, we just wanted to fill a requirement for an exercise class.

I did manage to cause quite a bit of trouble for him but I think the dance department was more concerned about a lawsuit than felt that he had done anything wrong. This is the kind of attitude I am talking about.

Originally Posted by mmouse1534

Interesting thread! I wtore an article abotu this a few years ago! not necissarily WHY a choreography doesn't fit individuals but more as to why its important to find your personal individual in-detail sylization. I think that might be part of it since that takes a lot of time!

Would you care to share the article with us maybe? :) no pressure :P lol

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

[sorry, one more thought]

** When a student opts to study from DVDs, it may be indicative of a lack of something in that individual's overall educational experience. The student isn't getting sufficiently challenged in classes, or maybe the desired master teacher isn't near enough to study with, or perhaps there just isn't enough money to keep up with the student's appetite for learning. Sometimes videos are the only option. (You can't take lessons from someone who's dead....) At any rate, the student is somehow feeling that she or he isn't learning and growing as an artist as fast as she or he would like from regular classes, and supplemental information becomes necessary. DVDs are a patch for students who can't get the knowledge they want any other way.

Gonna respectfully disagree with that. I study DVD's all the time because of desire for contrast or a particular style of a particular dancer and I study with 6 different teachers regularly, and a few others besides. 3 of whom are considered Master teachers as are most of the few besides.

I suspect that the majority of serious students aren't getting the mentoring they need to develop fully as artists in their regular classes, and it's pretty difficult to get there on your own, no matter how many DVDs you buy.

Now this I will agree with you. Even with the level and number of classes which I am taking, I don't get enough direct feed back. I think much of this is due to the on going nature of most of our teaching structure. Classes have no real goal, per se. The only time I receive real feedback is when I take a private of semi private lesson.

As for choreos not fitting, for me, personally, it is about body and style. Zahra does some really great choreography. She and I have very different bodies. While a lot of the belly accents she does are yummy on her, on me, they just look like Jaba the Hut has come to town! Also, most percussive things don't read well on my body - short waist, round hips here! - so I either have to really work them or change them up.

But I KNOW this. And am willing and able to work around these issues. dancers with less experience and less feed back from their teachers, don't. Many know that *something* is missing, but they don't know *what*.

{{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by catwomyn

Tina - What I am talking about are unwritten rules, lol. I'm 51 and fat. If I wanted to take a ballet class, I'd get all sorts of nasty comments and looks.

Hmmm.. our schools here have always had the "Adult Beginning Ballet" classes for parents, enthusiasts, or people who just want a different form of exercise. Young or old, fat or thin, taking a ballet class -- PROPERLY MODIFIED FOR YOUR FITNESS LEVEL -- should be for anyone who wants it.

Performing is an entirely different matter. I have never in my life seen an adult ballet class doing recitals or any kind of performances. It's usually understood that people who opt to study ballet as adults forego performing, and just focus on the fitness and musical aspects.

Originally Posted by catwomyn

Tina - What I am talking about are unwritten rules, lol.

On the other extreme, I think we suffer from a lack of standards. This is due to a toxic combination of factors: too many half-trained teachers, not enough serious students to make if financially viable, so much sisterhood blather that it obscures reality, etc. We basically have three kinds of belly dance students: serious professional-minded students, serious hobbyists, and "I'm just here for the fun/exercise/dressing up." There's nothing inherently wrong with any of those groups by themselves, but when they're all in the same class, somebody's not going to get what they're paying for.

I think, for the most part, the first two groups can usually coexist. In a lot of cases, the serious hobbyists are dancers who would have been the professional-minded students under a different set of circumstances (more time, more money, more youth, better body...), and they've basically self-selected themselves out of the first group and into the second. The third group is the one that would have been shunted onto a different track if we subscribed to the ballet model. Formal dance training simply doesn't make allowances for students who don't practice, don't care, and want to goof around. If you're the wrong body type to be professionally viable, that's too bad--thanks for stopping by. (I know that last thought is unreasonably harsh, especially considering that a lot of people end up in MED because the other dance disciplines didn't work out for them.) OTOH, how fast would you get shown the door if you announced three weeks into a ballet class that you bought your tutu because you were ready to perform? Maybe it's not all bad....

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

When a student opts to study from DVDs, it may be indicative of a lack of something in that individual's overall educational experience....

Gonna respectfully disagree with that. I study DVD's all the time because of desire for contrast or a particular style of a particular dancer and I study with 6 different teachers regularly, and a few others besides. 3 of whom are considered Master teachers as are most of the few besides.

I don't think you're disagreeing with me. It sounds like you are in the "there just isn't enough money to keep up with the student's appetite for learning" category. I'm assuming that if you had an infinite amount of cash, you'd be flying in all these teachers on your private jet to give you individualized lessons instead of working off their videos if you could! You are very fortunate that you can study like that, though. Lots of people can barely find an intermediate-level teacher in their area, much less choose from three master teachers on a regular basis.

Some styles of choreographies will just fit your own style better than others.
Can't speak of DVDs but:
- after a workshop with Raqia Hassan I left the room and the same moment couldn't remember a single thing about the choreo. (But had learned a lot about the Egyptian feeling)
- after every workshop with Mo Gedawwi I remembered the choreography the next day without having to write it down.

So Mo's style is apparently closer to my own...

MEISSOUN

I have always thought that there is a unique mix of emotional, intellectual, deep-muscular, conceptual and extremely individual elements in every dancer. These elements (or sometimes lack of) constitute the student's personal style. These are not things that can be taught or untaught by a teacher. A student may choose to work on these elements outside of dance class but to a certain extent it is just the way they are. It is the teacher's duty to address each dancer's learning style in order to lay down the basic movements, but this deep individual mix is beyond the teacher's grasp.

Choreography that resonates with the student's inner workings will obviously suit them better than choreo that doesn't. Teaching choreography in a video doesn't allow the teacher to address a personal learning style or to see when a movement/concept needs further explanation, so it can be a double whammy of not-getting-it for the dancers.

Originally Posted by david

I personally think that one issue on the choreographer's part is related to lack of ability to distance their personal individual in-detail stylization of movements and not conform to more universal concepts.

On the dancer's part one issue related to lack of knowledge and awareness of these universal concepts to be able to dechiper the material and separate the universal concepts from the personal individual in-detail stylization.

Hmm, both could be true.

A good teacher of choreography should be able to remove the individual stylization and teach it "plain", as well as teach stylization. If a choreographer can only choreograph for her/himself, then they probably shouldn't be choreographing for others.

On one hand, one can learn a lot by watching someone else's stylization, and I think that's why so many of us want to take workshops with the Egyptian stars, to absorb how they stylize and respond to music, more than the choreography themselves. But then we don't want to be clones, so it's all our own responsibility to come up with our own stylizations, unless we're deliberately paying homage to Dina or Souhair or whathaveyou.

On the other hand, what I was saying was so great about Dr. Mo is that he leaves the stylization up to the dancer - even says that you have to add yourself to it. In fact, if you didn't add your own stylization, it would all be rather plain.

The interesting thing about Yousry's workshop, was that he stylized the movements differently each time, and for some people, this confused them as it seemed like he "changed" the choreography. But for him, it was probably just stylization within the general movement. Of course, it made it difficult when several of us got together to remember the choreography, as each of us has gotten attached to different stylizations. I really liked watching the difference between the way he taught it originally and then how he would demonstrate it on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th time through, seeing how he ornamented it. Certainly the ornamentation/stylization can sometimes be too much for a student to grasp, and they may only get the broad strokes.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

[sorry, one more thought]

** When a student opts to study from DVDs, it may be indicative of a lack of something in that individual's overall educational experience. The student isn't getting sufficiently challenged in classes, or maybe the desired master teacher isn't near enough to study with, or perhaps there just isn't enough money to keep up with the student's appetite for learning. Sometimes videos are the only option. (You can't take lessons from someone who's dead....) At any rate, the student is somehow feeling that she or he isn't learning and growing as an artist as fast as she or he would like from regular classes, and supplemental information becomes necessary. DVDs are a patch for students who can't get the knowledge they want any other way. That doesn't automatically mean that the end product must be ill-fitting, one-size-fits-all choreographies, but in light of what may be motivating the problem, it isn't surprising that this is often the result. I suspect that the majority of serious students aren't getting the mentoring they need to develop fully as artists in their regular classes, and it's pretty difficult to get there on your own, no matter how many DVDs you buy.

going a bit off the topic now but..

I think these assertions do a disservice to DVDs. DVDs as part of a whole educational process have an important place. Neither can one get there taking classes with 2-3 teachers per week alone, let alone the 1x per week that most of my fellow students do. It's a combination of individual practice, improvisation/noodling, listening to music critically and non-critically, attending classes, workshops, and DVDs...just as for my graduate school, I have to participate in class discussions, do the reading, complete assignments and listen to lectures.

If I want to study dance every single day, and classes are only taught Mondays-Thursdays (say, theoretically - in reality in my town, I could take a class every single day - perhaps several per day if the times didn't conflict - but I would run out of money and never be in my own home)....then DVDs are a supplement to that.

Also DVDs are useful for reviewing what one learned in a workshop, somewhat like re-reading your notes. I am not good at taking notes in workshops (they make no sense to me later) - so if the workshop instructor has videos available, I often buy them because they will often have the same sorts of insights on their video presence as they did in real life.

So Mo's style is apparently closer to my own.

Nah, Mo's *brain* is closer to your own. And his choreos are differently challenging than Raqia's - I've not studied with her but I've *seen them* - and the emphasis that I noted was footwork. Also, having done Winter Warmup with Dr Mo some years back, I can't say enough good things about him as a teacher. He drills a lot also.

I will hopefully go to WW next year, when he is teaching again, my only reservation being that I would really like now to work with an Egyptian *belly dancer* rather than someone so exclusively folkloric and feety. I believe he himself encourages doing some classes with women to get the *feeling*. He's more about the steps.

But he's still very much worth the trouble to go to!

As for choreos: I think learning other people's choreos is a very good way of extending one's range and skill base. You learn different ways of hearing, different combinations of movements, things you hadn't thought of before. But because oriental dance is so individualistic, you eventually choose what flatters your body and personality best. For instance, something that involves a lot of bouncing about is not going to be particularly suited to my strengths or my body type. Say I learned a dance by Eva Cernik. It would be a good learning exercise but it would look *ridiculous* on me, since I am the polar opposite, physically, to Eva Cernik. Every body is slightly different, so you can find that one arm position that looks great on you looks ugly on someone else, and vice versa. It's good to try on all these different outfits but eventually, hopefully, little bits here and there will be transformed into your own unique look. Although you'll know that certain 'designers' will generally look better on you.

Originally Posted by tinasargent

Huh? Is this really true where you live? Up here in Seattle, there are all kinds of studios that have open classes. Are you talking about taking class or performing?

getting in a program for choreographers is near impossible though, i've researched quite a few programs and schools around europe and summer programs in the us. they are usually geared towards professionals in one specific dance form, or usually even sub form/style of ballet/modern/contemporary

the few more open programs i found were very geared towards dance for children/dance as therapy and community work (social work).. not for pro dancers...

edited to say: i agree that entry to those kind of programs is like based on previous dance training, and for certain styles, but trying to find something that suits my needs so far... has been frustrating..;

so i'm reading a lot about choreographing and improvising in other dance forms, and trying out what works for oriental dance teaching and performing

Originally Posted by catwomyn

Tina - What I am talking about are unwritten rules, lol. I'm 51 and fat. If I wanted to take a ballet class, I'd get all sorts of nasty comments and looks. Now at my age, that would just make me laugh but when I was younger it definitely made me feel out of place.

Just a little illustration. In college, I took a modern dance class. At the time I was about what would be a size 8 now. There was one other girl of about the same size. Every one else was skinny to very skinny. The teacher made a public announcement about how anyone who was overweight would not be allowed to take the next level up. Now this was not a dance majors class, it was a general class , mostly for dance majors to get teaching experience.

We chubby girls didn't suck any more than anyone else. We wern't looking for jobs as dancers, we just wanted to fill a requirement for an exercise class.

I did manage to cause quite a bit of trouble for him but I think the dance department was more concerned about a lawsuit than felt that he had done anything wrong. This is the kind of attitude I am talking about.

Well, I think times may have changed. I own a dance supply store, and most of my customers are in ballet, modern, tap, jazz. Basically other dance forms besides bellydance, so I get to see the wide range of people who are taking dance classes in these parts. I have ladies in their 50s and beyond coming in for pointe shoes, and there are people of all sizes.
I do think there are attitudes about weight when it comes to dancing professionally, but I also think there are plenty of opportunities to learn dance as an adult in non-judgmental settings.
It's too bad that you had such a negative experience.

It is interesting that so many people are reacting to my statement, "When a student opts to study from DVDs, it may be indicative of a lack of something in that individual's overall educational experience." It wasn't necessarily a negative remark. I merely intended it to mean that--for whatever reason--the student isn't getting enough of what she/he wants out of the current educational offerings, no matter how good those offerings might be. Most of the dancers I know use videos because it's simply not feasible for them to work with master teachers in person as often as they'd like, either because of cost or location or convenience, and they want to learn in addition to what they can get out of regular local classes.

There is some information that simply cannot be obtained in a live setting. No matter how much you want to and how much money you might be able to spend, you cannot take a private lesson with Tahia Carioca. If you want to learn about her style, your possibilities are watching old film footage and hunting down people who knew her and could tell you about working with her--you don't have any other options. For most people, studying with DVDs is a logistic thing. It's what you do when you can't get that instruction in person. I really find it hard to believe that if most dancers could afford it and it was convenient to have live lessons whenever you wanted with the teachers on those videos, they would choose DVDs over working with those teachers in person.

Nepenthe raises a valid point about using DVDs as review tools after workshops, although from my personal experience, the workshops I've been to don't tend to overlap all that much with the teacher's DVDs. The general technique and warm ups may be the same, but it seems like the choreographies aren't usually on DVD. Perhaps in the old days this was more common when fewer dancers could afford to make videos, but I think now that teachers realize a lot of people won't bother to go to the workshop if they can buy a DVD of what's being taught for less money. It just makes more marketing sense to offer products with different content, because then you can make two sales (workshops and DVDs).

Originally Posted by tinasargent

Well, I think times may have changed. I own a dance supply store, and most of my customers are in ballet, modern, tap, jazz. Basically other dance forms besides bellydance, so I get to see the wide range of people who are taking dance classes in these parts. I have ladies in their 50s and beyond coming in for pointe shoes, and there are people of all sizes. I do think there are attitudes about weight when it comes to dancing professionally, but I also think there are plenty of opportunities to learn dance as an adult in non-judgmental settings.
It's too bad that you had such a negative experience.

OT: Thanks, Tina, for posting this. It's encouraging to hear that there are women still dancing later in life. I knew one fifty-something attorney who used to take ballet three times a week, and I don't believe she learned in her youth. She simply enjoyed it later in life. Throughout the day, you could spot her humming classical music in the corridors.

As far as why choreography 14 doesn't fit, it's because it's ten sizes too large. I believe there are dancers who were meant to be choreographers. They have a special talent for it, a vision, if you will. They leave enough room for personal interpretation and don't choreograph every little detail to death. Also, I think most choreographies are done with someone specific in mind, even if it's the instructor's own body and strengths (he/she will play up what looks best on her, I'd expect), which means that, in a group setting, most participants will be learning a choreography that wasn't created for them. Some people will be able to use it just fine, of course, with some changes. But it won't look the same. As a dancer, you acknowledge what looks best on you and throw out the rest (or you store it in your notes for later investigation).

Originally Posted by ouroboros

Choreography that resonates with the student's inner workings will obviously suit them better than choreo that doesn't. Teaching choreography in a video doesn't allow the teacher to address a personal learning style or to see when a movement/concept needs further explanation, so it can be a double whammy of not-getting-it for the dancers.

I totally agree. Choreography is kind of like shoes...some are SO comfy as soon as you step into them, and some you have to break in before you feel comfortable in them. And some just never fit properly at all. Its up to the dancer to decide how "pretty" the shoes are and if they're worth the blisters to break them in! ..l;,

Although the up side of learning a choreo from a DVD is the rewind function. You have all the time in the world to review and analyze the piece, which is a luxury one doesn't have in a live workshop.

David, to address your point about removing the personal in-detail stylization...I think this can be a bit dangerous. If you remove the choreographer's detailed nuances, aren't we just moving back to teaching movement instead of dance? Or are you saying that choreography, in a classroom (or DVD classroom) setting should simply be taught as basic movement, and its up to the student to insert their nuances and style?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

[sorry, one more thought]
I suspect that the majority of serious students aren't getting the mentoring they need to develop fully as artists in their regular classes, and it's pretty difficult to get there on your own, no matter how many DVDs you buy.

Slightly off topic, perhaps, but here goes anyway!

I agree with this statement, especially the bolded section.

And, you know, I really don't think group lessons are the place to get that type of mentoring.

Sure, advanced level students need to learn advanced technique and that's do-able in a class, but developing one's style or, as Tourbeau describes it, "develop[ing] fully as artists," is something that needs individual attention.

I've only taken one or two series of class lessons in my entire 30-year career, and that was in the last couple of years. So what did I do instead? As many of you already know, I was mentored into this dance form, both in performing and teaching, by my mom. I received from her a richness of insight and experience at a very early stage in my development as a dancer. At about 15 years into my "career," I joined a professional BD troupe and stayed with them for nearly 10 years; another fantastic experience from which I learned tons of stuff, including more about my style and the styles of others. Teaching has been a tremendous asset to my development, too. Not that folks should take up teaching to further their development -- folks need to have a really good handle on their dance to begin teaching -- but teaching required me to analyze both technique and style in new, better and more profound ways.

I realize that few dancers have the opportunity to experience mentorship in this way; the only substitute for it, really, comes in private lessons. Classes are the place to learn technique and workshops are great for inspiration, but private lessons with a teacher willing to work with a dancer looking for his/her own style? Priceless.

(Hmmmm . . . have I been watching too many MasterCard commercials???)

And DVDs and other peoples' choreographies? Great tools! To quote Zum, "I think learning other people's choreos is a very good way of extending one's range and skill base. You learn different ways of hearing, different combinations of movements, things you hadn't thought of before. But because oriental dance is so individualistic, you eventually choose what flatters your body and personality best."

So . . . did this post come anywhere near David's topic? ..c::

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Slightly off topic, perhaps, but here goes anyway!

I agree with this statement, especially the bolded section.

And, you know, I really don't think group lessons are the place to get that type of mentoring.

Sure, advanced level students need to learn advanced technique and that's do-able in a class, but developing one's style or, as Tourbeau describes it, "develop[ing] fully as artists," is something that needs individual attention.

I've only taken one or two series of class lessons in my entire 30-year career, and that was in the last couple of years. So what did I do instead? As many of you already know, I was mentored into this dance form, both in performing and teaching, by my mom. I received from her a richness of insight and experience at a very early stage in my development as a dancer. At about 15 years into my "career," I joined a professional BD troupe and stayed with them for nearly 10 years; another fantastic experience from which I learned tons of stuff, including more about my style and the styles of others. Teaching has been a tremendous asset to my development, too. Not that folks should take up teaching to further their development -- folks need to have a really good handle on their dance to begin teaching -- but teaching required me to analyze both technique and style in new, better and more profound ways.

I realize that few dancers have the opportunity to experience mentorship in this way; the only substitute for it, really, comes in private lessons. Classes are the place to learn technique and workshops are great for inspiration, but private lessons with a teacher willing to work with a dancer looking for his/her own style? Priceless.

(Hmmmm . . . have I been watching too many MasterCard commercials???)

And DVDs and other peoples' choreographies? Great tools! To quote Zum, "I think learning other people's choreos is a very good way of extending one's range and skill base. You learn different ways of hearing, different combinations of movements, things you hadn't thought of before. But because oriental dance is so individualistic, you eventually choose what flatters your body and personality best."

So . . . did this post come anywhere near David's topic? ..c::

Deborah

Absolutely :)))