Thread: Legends of Belly Dance

I was just re-watching this and as always I'm stunned at how scantily clad the dancers were in that era compared to Fifi and Souheir Zaki who were always covered up. Then it occurred to me, were Egyptians banned from watching these films of half-naked women?

Which dancers in particular? I know that Nagwa Fouad often dressed a bit skimpily (I really do love her performance in the white costume on this DVD), but I think it's a sign of the times. It might also have been that the directors were looking to be a little edgier.

I'm talking about the earlier dancers from the 1940's-50's. Before they had to cover the stomach. Skirts are completely sheer. I can't remember which dancer, Samia? The girls dancing around the huge drum are wearing short skirts.

I love Nagwa in the white costume but even in that her midriff is covered. Nawga, Fifi and Soheir Zaki are very modestly dressed compared to some of the earlier dancers.

Originally Posted by norma

I'm talking about the earlier dancers from the 1940's-50's. Before they had to cover the stomach. Skirts are completely sheer. I can't remember which dancer, Samia? The girls dancing around the huge drum are wearing short skirts.

I love Nagwa in the white costume but even in that her midriff is covered. Nawga, Fifi and Soheir Zaki are very modestly dressed compared to some of the earlier dancers.

Perhaps Egypt was less conservative at this point than later on. I know they were also emulating Hollywood-style dance productions as well, which would account for the use of short skirts and western-style dance productions along with the belly dancing. Egyptians couldn't have been banned from seeing the movies, otherwise they wouldn't have made enough money to keep producing them.

I think it's just a sign of the times. I'm sometimes surprised by how skimpy the costumes are in American films from pre-1950 or so.. like these Busby Berkely dancers or Joan Blondell from the 1920's & 30's:



Showing lots of leg was clearly in style during that era.

If you contrast them with what you might have seen in movie musicals of the 1960s -- Julie Andrews, Doris Day, Ginger Rogers -- things had obviously swung around to being much more conservative.

So, I think it's a question of era, fashion styles, current social climate, and the persona the individual actress/dancer is looking to portray. (might also be a question of how great her body is.. .Fifi definitely showed plenty of leg when she was very young but not so much later on).

American movies under the Hayes Code were forbidden to show navel and lots of other silly rules. I thought the Egyptian films were following the Hollywood trends, regarding what American audiences were allowed to see, moreso than protecting the Egyptian public from seeing too much skin?

I'm surprised at this. My knowledge is somewhat cursory, but here goes:

In the early part of the 20th century Egypt's educated elite was working very hard in different ways to prove itself fit for freedom. One facet of the Egyptian nationalism/independence movement at that time, if I'm correct, was the adoption of lots of "western" values as gold standard stuff. Remember Egypt was colonised by the Ottoman Empire for centuries, occupied by the British for most of the 19th century (I believe), and when the Ottomans finally fell they were still effectively ruled by the Brits. The key rationale for Britain ruling these countries was that the Egyptians/Indians/etc etc were not fit to look after themselves and their resources properly. White man's burden and all that. Really just a convenient excuse, but anyway, colonised Egyptians were very keen on sophisticated European ways in the first part of the 20th century, probably up to the 70s I think.

The reason that the costumes become less scanty in the latter 50s-60s is that in, I think, 1952, Egypt became fully independent and one of the things that the new government decided to get rid of was that nasty dirty belly dancing. This failed, so two years later they got rid of that rule and replaced it with a requirement that the belly be covered, certain particularly lewd movements not be allowed and a ban on floorwork. Obviously dancers have been working around these rules ever since.

There was a huge change after the Revolution in 1952. Society became far more conservative, policing of belly dancers became a big deal, and the image of who Egyptians wanted to portray as the real Egyptians changed.

Pre-52, the elite was Europhile. Many spoke French at home. They adopted many European customs and disports. The corruption and venality of Faruk was legendary. At the start of the Revolution thousands of people rioted and fired many European landmarks. Afterwards the Europhiles were hounded out. The society then returned to its roots. Half naked women dancing in Nightclubs was not part of the image they wanted for themselves. (This was also part of the background for the rise of the santatised fakelore from Reda et al)

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I'm surprised at this. My knowledge is somewhat cursory, but here goes:

In the early part of the 20th century Egypt's educated elite was working very hard in different ways to prove itself fit for freedom. One facet of the Egyptian nationalism/independence movement at that time, if I'm correct, was the adoption of lots of "western" values as gold standard stuff. Remember Egypt was colonised by the Ottoman Empire for centuries, occupied by the British for most of the 19th century (I believe), and when the Ottomans finally fell they were still effectively ruled by the Brits. The key rationale for Britain ruling these countries was that the Egyptians/Indians/etc etc were not fit to look after themselves and their resources properly. White man's burden and all that. Really just a convenient excuse, but anyway, colonised Egyptians were very keen on sophisticated European ways in the first part of the 20th century, probably up to the 70s I think.

The reason that the costumes become less scanty in the latter 50s-60s is that in, I think, 1952, Egypt became fully independent and one of the things that the new government decided to get rid of was that nasty dirty belly dancing. This failed, so two years later they got rid of that rule and replaced it with a requirement that the belly be covered, certain particularly lewd movements not be allowed and a ban on floorwork. Obviously dancers have been working around these rules ever since.

Yes, but when those rules were put in place where the people allowed to watch the old films when the belly wasn't covered? That is really my question.

...

They must have been because they can and do still watch them today, from everything I've been told. I've never met a person from the Arab world who doesn't know who Samia Gamal and Tahia Carioca are, including young ones.

It could be that the movies were perceived to contain their own protection, much like violence in the Hays code days. Aren't the dancers all bad wicked characters as a rule? And Egypt didn't leap from being Wannabe Paris to lock up your daughters sharia law in the 50s. It was still quite sophisticated.

But I don't know. I'm just supposing.

Originally Posted by norma

Yes, but when those rules were put in place where the people allowed to watch the old films when the belly wasn't covered? That is really my question.

Ah, I understand the question now!

I wonder.. when the Hayes code came along, I think people in the US were still *allowed* to watch the old movies. Technically. It wasn't an issue in those days because no one had a VCR or DVD player. Movies on TV were a rare and special treat back then, and I suppose they had to get past the censors. But it wasn't popular to show older movies on TV until after cable came along. When there were only about 3 channels, it was all about programming and recent films.

So if I had to guess (which I do, if I'm going to answer) I'd guess that it was the same there. No point forbidding it if no one had the technology to play the films anyway and there was no demand for old movies on TV.

Nowadays they show whatever they want on TV (seen some of their music videos? Holy cow.) in spite of laws that still dictate live costuming. The Wahabis are trying to take control of the media, I'm told, but by buying the stations rather than through political channels or censorship.

I wonder.. when the Hayes code came along, I think people in the US were still *allowed* to watch the old movies. Technically. It wasn't an issue in those days because no one had a VCR or DVD player. Movies on TV were a rare and special treat back then, and I suppose they had to get past the censors. But it wasn't popular to show older movies on TV until after cable came along. When there were only about 3 channels, it was all about programming and recent films.

When did TV start broadcasting in the US? I'm pretty sure that in the code days, TV had not yet kicked in and so the cinema industry was pretty much held to ransom by the private owners of movie theatres. In fact I suspect the competition that television provided during the 50s would have contributed in part to the relinquishing of the code by the, hmm, 60s I think. The code came into effect in 1934.

Back then it was easy to censor pre-code movies, or indeed any movie you didn't like, simply by refusing to show them or making cuts locally. I *think* you could censor yourself, pretty much; movie theatres even when I was growing up had rolls of film and if you wanted to cut a scene, you would have just gotten out the scissors. I know they used to cut songs out of movies in parts of the South so that people didn't have to - gasp - look upon a Negro Entertainer.

As for Egypt, I could be wrong but I get the impression that the dancers you saw in movies were not the same as the bad evil belly dancers the government wanted to stamp out. None of the dancing in those movies that *I've* seen is all that shock-horror, whereas I get the impression the real concern was the more overtly sexually provocative stuff you might get in a seedier club.

I recently saw a snip of Afrita Hanem, the bit *before* the dance sequence everyone knows, and it was quite saucy, Samia being all up in Farid's face and lolling about provocatively on his bed. But the dancing is quite chaste really.

Well that's kind of what I've been wondering. I mean Egypt has become so conservative that belly dancing is practically being edged out. It just seems to me that it seems rather ironic to allow the people to watch scantily clad dancers in some of these older films but then don't allow their own women to appear in public unless they are covered. I remember reading a few months ago about how the young males were practically chasing women down in the streets because they weren't allowed to have relations unless they were married. How on earth would they react watching a steamy love scene from some of these older movies?

Maybe it was just the dancers in the seedier clubs and not the movies, but I've seen some clips lately that I thought were pretty darn provocative for the day, even by US standards.

Culture isn't static, linear or simple, that's why.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

When did TV start broadcasting in the US?

1927 was the very first, but regluar nationwide television broadcasts didn't start until 1939.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

As for Egypt, I could be wrong but I get the impression that the dancers you saw in movies were not the same as the bad evil belly dancers the government wanted to stamp out. None of the dancing in those movies that *I've* seen is all that shock-horror, whereas I get the impression the real concern was the more overtly sexually provocative stuff you might get in a seedier club.

I recently saw a snip of Afrita Hanem, the bit *before* the dance sequence everyone knows, and it was quite saucy, Samia being all up in Farid's face and lolling about provocatively on his bed. But the dancing is quite chaste really.

The dancing itself is not all that provocative, but in the old flicks I've seen the characters that play the dancers (or in Afrita Hanem, the use of dancing as part of her "evil genie" character) clearly make a moral statement about dancers in general.

I think you're getting a very one-sided view of Arabic culture from somewhere (US media & anti-Arab propoganda?). We only hear about the fundamentalist aspect -- there's a whole range of culture and personalities and lifestyles there, just like here.

Look at these current music videos that get play on Egyptian TV.
(these are Roubi, I'm sure Haifa has some real knock-outs too)
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTRYT7_HTDY]YouTube - Roubi[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98pf9oKhgIw]YouTube - Rouby - Awel Marra[/ame]

Showing these in class usually knocks the wind out of my students who have mistaken ideas about Arabic culture. It's just not what you think.

By the way, Egyptian women are NOT required to cover. Many Muslim Egyptian women choose to, and when the do the pressure on the others. But of course none of the Christians do.

In the 70's when I was in school, we ALL wore tiny short shorts Remember the ones with the white piping that went up the side, and our butt cheeks pretty much hung out? Men wore them too. My kids won't wear shorts that come much above their knees. Our society cycles through fashions that are more or less conservative, and of course so does Egyptian society. Right now it's more conservative, but that's not a government mandate.

Egyptian rules and regulations have fluctuated throughout the times (Just as they have everywhere else). At one point, there was an extreme westernization where it was cool to be as western as possible. then came the right wing with restrictions on what a belly dancer could wear. nowadays, i believe Middle Eastern culture is in a sort of clash - extreme fundamentalism in politics with another wave of westernization in the arts - as seen by some of the more risque music videos that are now popular. Every society fluctuates in its moral police, be it government enforced or otherwise.

As for the original question in the post, the movies were not banned just like most of the risque movies were not banned in america either. However, instead of being viewed as often as newer broadcasts, the movies and the featured dancers passed into legend, making the "risque" acceptable simply because it was legendary.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

By the way, Egyptian women are NOT required to cover. Many Muslim Egyptian women choose to, and when the do the pressure on the others. But of course none of the Christians do.

Actually I suspect many of the Christian women do as well. They certainly do/did in rural Palestine.

The Egyptian Copts I met here made a point of wearing western-style clothing in Egypt, even thougn the women got harassed for it sometimes, as a marker of their difference. Some young men would carry syringes of acid and squirt it at your clothes so they fell apart. It was the freedom not to bend to pressure to cover that made them come here, among other things.

The dancing itself is not all that provocative, but in the old flicks I've seen the characters that play the dancers (or in Afrita Hanem, the use of dancing as part of her "evil genie" character) clearly make a moral statement about dancers in general.

Yes, that's definitely another element, because those dancer characters are bad wicked women who get their comeuppance in the end. Of course, as has been written of the US golden age of "women's pictures", going to jail/dying horribly and/or deciding to get married and have babies like a Real Woman in the last five minutes doesn't take away the impact of a character who spent the first 90 minutes in fabulous clothes being in control and doing whatever she wanted. And I would say it's the same with the Egyptian movies. Tahia may be a trashy marriage wrecker but she looks *coooool*.

Well here's a interesting story I heard from someone who was in Egypt in the 60's-70's. No notion if it's true but it sure is interesting.

Apparently, near the end of her career Tahia Carioca was extremely self conscious about her fading looks. She began wearing cover ups to hide the extra weight that she had gained. One evening, Her, and some high ranking Egyptian officials were at a show, watching Nagwa Foad (who at the time was this Pretty Young Thang, vibrant and full of life, skinny, etc etc)

Well needless to say it set off Tahia's jealousy alarm, and she began to tell the Egyptian officials how disrespectful it was that she was dancing with her stomach out. She went on to say that because this dance was a part of Egyptian heritage and tradition that it should be kept clean and how the girls shouldn't be on the stage looking like common hookers. The officials agreed with her argument not realizing that there was another motive behind it, and the next week, passed it into law that all dancer would need to cover their stomachs, and more modest clothing would have to be worn.

Tahia figured that if ALL the dancers had to cover up, it would level the playing field so to speak and she could still dance, without having to be compared to the new fresh tiny dancers that were letting it all hang out on stage.

Wow sounds like a tall tale to me! First from all accounts I have seen it was in the 1950s when laws were passed about belly dancers and covering their stomachs. And second I find it hard to believe that a woman in Egypt from such a profession as 'belly dancer' would have such a strong influence on government officials.

Originally Posted by kashmir

Actually I suspect many of the Christian women do as well. They certainly do/did in rural Palestine.

I actually don't know any Christian women in Egypt that do cover their hair. Someone has to keep those hairdressers in business. Also many Muslim woman that work at the hotels and other tourist offices and such don't cover their hair at work. The idea is to have a Western appearance in their dress I guess.

Dear Norma,

The simple answer is belly dancers have always been scandally clad, but where the skin is showing tends to be different depending on the particular time period.

Costumes during the heyday of Classical Egyptian Cinema before 1952 tended to be influenced by world fashion at the time. The belts on costumes were high waisted, skirts were sheer, bra cups covered the whole breast and fringe was incorporated differently in the costume as more of an accent versus a way to emphasis movement.

By the 70s, the typical belly dance costume changed dramatically. Due to the belly cover, it seems that dancers compensated by showing ever more amounts of leg and lowering the belt closer to the crotch. The bra cups are also cut lower and a LOT of fringe is used.

By the 1990s, dancers are now wearing mini-skirts and no fringe.

Ah I think you guys are missing the point. I'm not talking about changes in fashion. I've been around long enough to experience changes in fashion first hand. But no matter. On to other topics.