Thread: Dancing veil and not just flinging fabric - ?

I have always fancied forming the SPCV (the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to veils).
The number of people I have seen trying to beat a beautiful piece of fabric to death is legion.
Everything from the lightest silk to that which resembles linoleum is in fear of its' very being.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

LOL--now here is the most important thing to teach students about veil: It can actually be done to songs other than "Yearning" from "Bellydance Superstars Vol. V." I know, it's kind of an obscure fact, but in the old days, apparently other music was used....

See also: Ice Queen/Isis wings.

I am really no better than workmanlike with a veil at best, but one thing I can tell you that is helpful: you do not and cannot fling a veil. You have to pull it. Pull the veil through the air instead of shoving it and use your arms to carry it, and it will look a lot better

okay, these next clips will probably not be helpful with your project because they are of the expressive soloist variety, but I'm guessing a lot of people haven't seen them and Aszmara is so unique in her approach to using a veil, she is really worth seeing:

[ame=http://www.vimeo.com/2169794]folk Tours US camp event 2007 on Vimeo[/ame]

[ame=http://www.vimeo.com/2262568]Folk Tours us camp event 2008 on Vimeo[/ame]

Originally Posted by Khalida

I have a clip on youtube here with a veil dance inspired by Aziza's beautiful veil work and framing:

YouTube - Khalida performing in Duisburg - December 2008

Khalida, that was lovely! Well-done.

----

I'm also a fan of Shoshanna's veil dancing, but I don't think her current youtube clips really do her justice.

Thank you Shems! Your veil clip is in my favorites list btw ;-)

Originally Posted by zumarrad

LOL--now here is the most important thing to teach students about veil: It can actually be done to songs other than "Yearning" from "Bellydance Superstars Vol. V." I know, it's kind of an obscure fact, but in the old days, apparently other music was used....

See also: Ice Queen/Isis wings.

Yes, definitely! I don't deny that I live in an Arab-Culture-Impoverished part of the US, but this goes beyond a problem with the local yokels overusing the BDSS CDs. I can start listing workshops with national teachers who've indulged in the "Big Y": Ava Fleming, Aziza, Virginia, Leila Gamal,.... Actually, I can't remember the last time I went to a workshop or a show and didn't hear it! "Yearning" is a very lovely tune, and I can imagine MC strongly encourages his BDSS girls to use BDSS music as much as they can, but seriously! When I go to a dance event, I'm hoping to hear something new, get an insight into some different music from someone who is higher up in the food chain than I am, or at least hear something that's coming out of mothballs for a second time around. I feel very strongly about teachers using music that students can actually purchase, but there's a whole Internet full of it!

Sorry, but I'm at the point where when I hear somebody is performing a veil routine to "Yearning," I think, "Honey, better dancers than you have already worked this song within an inch of its life. PICK ANOTHER SONG!"

Eddie "the Sheik" Kochak had some beautiful rhumbas for veil work. One of my favorites was Dance Rami from the Silver Anniversary album. It used to bring tears to my eyes.

omg. I'd forgotten about Shems' clip. I remember just holding my breath the first time I watched it. That is one gorgeous bit of veil dancing.

And Shoshanna is amazing with her four-yard veils.

WONDERFUL!! Thank you all!! So many great clips and so many good comments.

I think my major issue is that I don't like choreographing for groups because I don't usually like watching groups. (Except group finger cymbal dances, which I just adore. go figure.) I think what I was trying to do was worry too much about choreographing a VEIL dance, and not worrying enough about making a dance that happens to also use veil.

I'm also surprised at all the musical choices -- I never would have heard some of these pieces and imagined them with veil. VERY cool. That opens up a lot more territory for me.

It seems like individual dancers doing individual bits of veilwork is a little different from groups doing veilwork. What I figured with groups (and what stood out about Shabnam's group) is that you would work with the visual picture that all the different veils seen together would make. I think this is actually quite a bit harder to visualize than focusing on one dancer at a time.

(This is one of my greatest weakness as a teacher: making group choreographies beyond a beginning level. I really mostly improvise inside a "skeleton" choreography, and I seem to encourage my students to do the same -- which makes creating and deciding on one FINAL version for the group to do rather difficult for me. But they're making me work through it because they really want a more lyrical dance to perform together, so hopefully I'll get as much out of it as they will!)

Originally Posted by aziyade

I think my major issue is that I don't like choreographing for groups because I don't usually like watching groups.

I hear ya on that one- mostly because a lot of groups don't make use of the *advantages* of having a group (staging, layering, creating visual interest) and just have everyone doing the same thing.

Originally Posted by aziyade

It seems like individual dancers doing individual bits of veilwork is a little different from groups doing veilwork. What I figured with groups (and what stood out about Shabnam's group) is that you would work with the visual picture that all the different veils seen together would make. I think this is actually quite a bit harder to visualize than focusing on one dancer at a time.

I think this is the right approach any time you are doing groups, but especially with veil. group staging is definitely a skill in & of itself, so be patient with yourself while you are learning! I watch some of the vids of my early classes, & even my very very beginning level dancers look so much better now because my staging has improved!

I don't have it in front of and am at work so I can't look it up for you, but (i'm blanking on the first name) Varese has a lovely veil routine with her troupe to Zeina on an IAMED DVD which makes really nice use of floor patterns, color etc.

Originally Posted by laura 2

I love this clip of Sonya from Chicago dancing to old-skool George Abdo with veil. Not only does she handle the veil beautifully, there's still pleanty of dancing going on as far as I can see.

Sonya's Souk - Belly Dance - Video Clips

Sonya is one of the few who actually dances with the veil, as does Abrevaya from Chicago too. So many times you see dancers who use the veil as a substitute for dancing and it is one of my minor irritations. I am one of those who do the "Egyptian veil dance" (throws it away pretty quickly) so I am not an expert but I do think a veil should be a support to the dance, not a substitute.

Originally Posted by aziyade

WONDERFUL!! Thank you all!! So many great clips and so many good comments.

I think my major issue is that I don't like choreographing for groups because I don't usually like watching groups. (Except group finger cymbal dances, which I just adore. go figure.) I think what I was trying to do was worry too much about choreographing a VEIL dance, and not worrying enough about making a dance that happens to also use veil.

I'm also surprised at all the musical choices -- I never would have heard some of these pieces and imagined them with veil. VERY cool. That opens up a lot more territory for me.

It seems like individual dancers doing individual bits of veilwork is a little different from groups doing veilwork. What I figured with groups (and what stood out about Shabnam's group) is that you would work with the visual picture that all the different veils seen together would make. I think this is actually quite a bit harder to visualize than focusing on one dancer at a time.

(This is one of my greatest weakness as a teacher: making group choreographies beyond a beginning level. I really mostly improvise inside a "skeleton" choreography, and I seem to encourage my students to do the same -- which makes creating and deciding on one FINAL version for the group to do rather difficult for me. But they're making me work through it because they really want a more lyrical dance to perform together, so hopefully I'll get as much out of it as they will!)

Have you ever seen Samara of NY's group veil pieces? She has managed to incorporate this difficult prop into dynamic group work that highlights each dancers strengths while at the same time remaining cohesive. I can't youtube at the office but I'll see if I can dig up a video later.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

LOL--now here is the most important thing to teach students about veil: It can actually be done to songs other than "Yearning" from "Bellydance Superstars Vol. V." I know, it's kind of an obscure fact, but in the old days, apparently other music was used....

Ha!

Good one!

Here's a for you.

Deborah

Originally Posted by kina

I don't have it in front of and am at work so I can't look it up for you, but (i'm blanking on the first name) Varese has a lovely veil routine with her troupe to Zeina on an IAMED DVD which makes really nice use of floor patterns, color etc.

That's our own Lilla Varese!

Deborah

Originally Posted by Lara L

I hear ya on that one- mostly because a lot of groups don't make use of the *advantages* of having a group (staging, layering, creating visual interest) and just have everyone doing the same thing.

Group staging is definitely a skill in & of itself, so be patient with yourself while you are learning! I watch some of the vids of my early classes, & even my very very beginning level dancers look so much better now because my staging has improved!

Yes, yes and yes!

You really have to let your imagination fly in order to make the most of group veil dances. Well, that and rehearsing until your arms fall out of their sockets!

Listen to the music for broad, sweeping sections. During these sections, you could have everyone in the group doing broad, sweeping veil patterns (nothing complicated, as broad and sweeping movements are by their nature incompatible with minutia; big floor patterns while executing the big and sweeping veil patterns are great, too) that end in a pose with the veils out to their fullest extent; back row maintains pose while front row continues into the next section with more complicated veil patterns and body movement. Continue.

One of the most difficult parts of group veil work is getting everybody to do the same thing at the same time. Another is to feel the "pulse" of the music the same and work with it the same. And don't forget about simply maintaining consistent arm positions/angles.

I will often listen to music and start seeing in my mind's eye how it would work with a group -- and I'm a soloist! There is a lot of stuff in a lot of ME music that lends itself to group work, even if it's not immediately apparent.

Let your creative spirit go and enjoy the process!

Deborah

Originally Posted by shems

okay, these next clips will probably not be helpful with your project because they are of the expressive soloist variety, but I'm guessing a lot of people haven't seen them and Aszmara is so unique in her approach to using a veil, she is really worth seeing:

folk Tours US camp event 2007 on Vimeo

Folk Tours us camp event 2008 on Vimeo

I'

I"m sorry but I found that physically painful to watch. I couldn't even complete both clips. Not my cup of tea at all.

Originally Posted by norma

I'

I"m sorry but I found that physically painful to watch. I couldn't even complete both clips. Not my cup of tea at all.

My reaction wasn't THAT strong, but not really my cup of tea either... I watched the first clip and spent the first four minutes (the whole veil part) wondering why she was wearing a bellydance costume to do a completely diifferent style (as Shems said, it was more modern/interpretive). I couldn't see what it had to do with bellydance.

I've often wondered that about some of the veil dancers I've seen in IAMED shows, too. After she got rid of the fabric, she did some nice bellydancing.

I didn't watch the second clip so I can't comment on that one.

only had time to see the first one.

there's some very beautifull ideas in those, but it looks very improvised and i couldnt imagine veil to that music myself.
at times she's a little too hectic and fast for me, but i love some of the ideas and freedom in it.

this is how i practice with a veil, i improvise, try out, to all kinds of music, and through these kind of improvisations, i come up with ideas, and then i recreate them, see how they work, and polish and semi-choreograph those ideas when i have use for them. I make sure i can smooth it out, hide the tricks, create the magic ;-)

the impro exercises also help practice to keep going when it does go wrong, as with more complicated veil stuff (its allllivve) it surely will. that's the hardest part in putting it together for a troupe i think, there's only so much risk you can take in a group piece, and some moves have a tendency to not always come out exactly the same, definitely with wrapping and unwrapping

oh, and i love shems clip.

The thing about Aszmara is that she might be one of the most musical dancers I know. She was an accomplished bellydancer (one of Bobby's girls) who has taken her dance into her own style and interpretations.

Video does her no justice, there is something special about watching her perform. Yes it's not "bellydance" but to watch this tiny little thing stand 10 feet tall is quite impressive.

I liken Aszmara's dancing to watching her come on stage, explode, run around picking up all her little pieces, and then exploding again.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

The thing about Aszmara is that she might be one of the most musical dancers I know. She was an accomplished bellydancer (one of Bobby's girls) who has taken her dance into her own style and interpretations.

Video does her no justice, there is something special about watching her perform. Yes it's not "bellydance" but to watch this tiny little thing stand 10 feet tall is quite impressive.

I liken Aszmara's dancing to watching her come on stage, explode, run around picking up all her little pieces, and then exploding again.

Oh, absolutely. Not being bellydance doesn't make a dance bad! It's not a judgement, just an observation.

I enjoy lots and lots of dancing that isn't bellydance, including modern, interpretive, ballet, tap, ballroom, etc. And I don't mind when a bellydancer wants to experiment with another form, even if it's at a hafla or bellydance event. I love a little variety.

I've enjoyed seeing flamenco and martial arts demonstrations at haflas, for instance. But they were appropriately costumed and were clearly identified. If flamenco or martial arts had been presented in bedlah to middle eastern music and not properly identified, I'd find it odd and confusing. (wouldn't mean it wasn't well-performed, just confusing)

Wow..I've been looking for inspiration veil dance clips for awhile now and haven't really found all that much to go with. Thanks for posting all of these.

I'm terrible with veil. Just terrible. I need to focus more on it other than entrance, swirl, and discard thing..

thank you for your kind effort emtink

I saw Mercedes Nieto at the Nile group performing this dance. It was jawdropping. I think most of the room was hypnotized.
The way she holds the veil makes it look quite different.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4y1pYhOj_k]YouTube - Mercedes Nieto - Modern Egyptian Raqs Sharki, part 1. - oriental dance, hastánc[/ame]
It was a long number so it's in two parts on youtube.

Wow, just wow! I'm gonna watch that clip over and over again;)

Originally Posted by gisela

I saw Mercedes Nieto at the Nile group performing this dance. It was jawdropping. I think most of the room was hypnotized.
The way she holds the veil makes it look quite different.
YouTube - Mercedes Nieto - Modern Egyptian Raqs Sharki, part 1. - oriental dance, hastánc
It was a long number so it's in two parts on youtube.

That's one of my favorite clips of Mercedes. I just found it not too long ago.
But the veil is cut differently, it's not how she holds it. It's wider, and at the end there are two extra pieces. The veil is probably about 4 yards long (maybe more?) and I think 50-60 inches wide. It looks like the veil is cut out of 1 piece.

I guess you are right about the cut. I never saw it until you said it :)
It looks great.

In the beginning it looks like she holds it all in her hands, but then at about 1 minute she lets go and only holds it at the edges, that when you can see it.
You have to watch part 2, it's just as good!

slightly too fast for my taste, but i LLLOVE how she holds it and some of the stuff she does with it. so creative, love it

I found this clip of Eva when posting on a different thread.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQiY97MX7KA]YouTube - Eva Cernik veil[/ame]