Thread: Dancing veil and not just flinging fabric - ?

I've never been overly in love with veil work, so I just tended to avoid it beyond the swish-swish-flick entrance and discard. But I'm trying to put together a nice American veil choreography for my intermediate students and I'm having trouble with the idea of actually DANCING and doing veil work, instead of just sort of standing in one place and swishing fabric around.

It seems like all the "dancey" bits get either covered up by the veil, or the veil draws attention away from them, so you don't notice them. I can't seem to find the right visual balance of hip work, footwork and fabric swishing.

In a typical AmCab veil dance (we're using "Varter") is the focus mostly on manipulating the veil? Should I just be worried about making a pretty picture with the fabric, and maybe keep the hipwork to a minimum, but travel a lot?

Suggestions? Got any clips to study? They prefer group pieces, so that kind of leaves out the opportunity for a lot of expressive improvisation. :/

cory zamora does some amazing amcab veil wraps, and really using the veil to frame the dance. i think there are some clips on youtube, but i'm at work and can't search them. will post later tonight if no one else beats me to it!

This clip might give you some ideas. It's Shabnam's Troupe Ooh la la, it's a combination of bigger spins and using the veil to frame your movements.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N8rqcqqh-0]YouTube - Bellydance Troupe Ooh La La[/ame]

This thread might be helpful, since it already has suggestions in it. http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...eil-clips.html

Okay, I'll admit it. I am an unrepentant veil hater--but it's because there are so very few dancers who ACTUALLY DANCE with their veils. If I wanted to see a piece of fabric flapping around to music, I could put on an iPod and watch a flag!

I don't know what your students want, though. For some reason that I personally can't seem to tap into, most people really like the American style of veil work that consists entirely of fabric semaphore, endless spinning, and peek-a-boo harem kitsch. Sometimes I think it is because you can create what an audience will accept as a halfway decent stage product without much actual dance talent. (Have you ever noticed that some of the most fanatical veil advocates are beginners and people who aren't good enough to dance without a 3-yard "partner"?) That's not to say that all veil dancing is bad. There are some examples of beautiful veil work in that thread I linked, but in general, if you have an inanimate object doing most of the moving for you, then YOU are not really dancing, AFAIC.

I'm very partial to Artemisia's veil dance
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9-xt3MSpS0]YouTube - Eilat festival 2009- Artemisia from Belgium[/ame]

or Aziza's piece to the same music -- I've been dancing this one and it just feels so goooood to do it.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KSbiYA_Xeg]YouTube - Aziza at Eilat festival 2009[/ame]

What both clips share (besides the music) is

- The dancer comes out wrapped so her arms are free, but her body/costume are still highly visible so she can really dance (and there's no suggestion of a striptease when she removes the veil -- I often think that's an unintended consequence of 'hide the costume' wraps and moves)

- When the music crescendos, the veil comes into play to highlight spins and turns

- When the music slows back down, the veil gets artfully set aside (or could be held, as a frame)

- there's not TOO much veil-flinging. It gets flung occasionally, to take an accent in the music, but there's plenty of dancing as well.

It seemed like an awful lot of what Aziza taught us was the art of how to get the heck rid of the veil for a while so you could just dance! How to tuck it away while spinning and *not looking* at what your hands are doing, for instance.

As a teacher, veil is a great opportunity to teach open posture, extended arms. Veilwork collapses with poor posture and arms. It's also a great opportunity to teach turns, spins, and body lines.

LOL--now here is the most important thing to teach students about veil: It can actually be done to songs other than "Yearning" from "Bellydance Superstars Vol. V." I know, it's kind of an obscure fact, but in the old days, apparently other music was used....

I've always thought that veil work should be kept for advanced students because I do believe the veil should just be an extension of the dance, and not a replacement for it. I can't watch any of the above clips as I'm at work but I can't wait to see them.

Veil of course is great when you are spinning or traveling but there are a lot of different veil holds you can use to form a tent or a frame to show off other dance movements.

Veda Sereem's book is an excellent resource. She shows numerous veil poses and suggests steps to go with them. - Belly Dancing Book

I love this clip of Sonya from Chicago dancing to old-skool George Abdo with veil. Not only does she handle the veil beautifully, there's still pleanty of dancing going on as far as I can see.

Sonya's Souk - Belly Dance - Video Clips

It's an odd visual but all my favorite veil pieces have reminded me of reunited lovers. A dancer who moves with her veil and against her veil does more for me then someone waving fabric in the air. I'm a big fan of taking up lots of space when using veil, moving across the floor and letting the air in the room do the veil work for you. I also like when dancers contrast between big movements (barrel turns, spins, tosses) and small movements (holding the veil to your face or body, twisting the fabric, allowing the veil to wrap around you and unwrap.)

I don't believe she has any dvds or you tube clips, you may have to purchase the old style vhs videos, but no one on this Earth DANCES with the veil, like Eva Cernik of Colorado (ok in my opinion :)

Dance classes by Eva Cernik: Turkish Oriental Cabaret, Gypsy and Egyptian (including Ghawazee) styles

I'm also deeply in love with Lulu Sabongi, and she has many you tube videos, here's one

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqqnUtCEOKM]YouTube - Lulu Sabongi 3[/ame]

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

It's an odd visual but all my favorite veil pieces have reminded me of reunited lovers. A dancer who moves with her veil and against her veil does more for me then someone waving fabric in the air. I'm a big fan of taking up lots of space when using veil, moving across the floor and letting the air in the room do the veil work for you. I also like when dancers contrast between big movements (barrel turns, spins, tosses) and small movements (holding the veil to your face or body, twisting the fabric, allowing the veil to wrap around you and unwrap.)

Mmmmhmmm! Here's my favorite clip of a veil-as-lover style, featuring our own Mariyah. And music OTHER than Yearning.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFHYJB7vWVk]YouTube - Oriental dancer Mariyah - New York - bellydance - veil[/ame]

Mariyah's veil obviously has it bad for her.

Okay, so in class, I try to teach concepts as well- here are the concepts we work on for veil (disclaimer- yes, I know I'm opinionated, but at least I enjoy watching my student's veil dances!):

The veil needs to be an extension of your arm. It takes a lot of practice, but you really need to extend your 'body awareness' to encompass the veil. Many of the framing/accent arm movements you should already be drilling can be slightly modified for veil, the trick is weeding out those contrasting arm movements that cause the veil to hide anything.

If you are going to use veil, or any prop, it needs to become your partner in the dance- treat it like a living dance partner- there are times when you need to give it your attention and focus and times when it will be framing you, but you can't just ignore it.

You are allowed to simply let the veil rest- framing you, trailing behind you, allowing it to float down while you do something else.

You should be able to dance the entire routine with only slight modification without your veil. It might not look as good without the veil, but this ensures that actual *dancing* is taking place & also gives you a fall back on those days that the veil simply won't cooperate and you really do have to ditch it (as in, it's too late to yell at the stage hand who just opened the door & turned on the fan!!!)

I wish I had clips to post- & I am definitely coming back when I have more time to look over those already posted!

What is the name of this song (the one where Lauren posted the two videos of Aziza and Artemisa)? These are both beautiful choreo and they dance with the veil the whole time, I love it!

Shazadi (my former troupe) balances, dancing with a veil in a group quite nicely. They have movements that frame, beautiful spinning and traveling moves, a few veil tricks and some nice hip work all interlaced in their choreographies. I think they are worth a look for what you are trying to do:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7RoZXMxK2o]YouTube - Shazadi Belly Dance Troupe![/ame]

go about a minute in to skip the intro:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VJZ5OCf9aQ]YouTube - Shazadi Belly Dance[/ame]

I do like to see a dancer dance with her veil but I also appreciate that for that one song in a dancer's set, when a veil is manipulated skillfully, it adds variety to the performance. If it is only used to frame what might be typical belly dance movement I think I'd be slightly disappointed. I like the prop to really be worked if it is done well. On that note, I'm adding a clip of Shahravar who I think creates something really hypnotic with her veil dancing.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7n-m3Iu8Ho]YouTube - Utah Belly Dance artist. Shahravar with Double Veils[/ame]

several others of my favorite veil dancing clips have already been shared here.

Originally Posted by shems

I do like to see a dancer dance with her veil but I also appreciate that for that one song in a dancer's set, when a veil is manipulated skillfully, it adds variety to the performance. If it is only used to frame what might be typical belly dance movement I think I'd be slightly disappointed. I like the prop to really be worked if it is done well.

That's part of the reason I put *all* my 'concepts' down- they don't work in isolation. I have seen just veil swishing with no dancing, and dancing while ignoring the veil. I want to see you dancing with the veil- I really like the idea of treating a veil like a dance partner.

[QUOTE=Lara L;467447]

You should be able to dance the entire routine with only slight modification without your veil. It might not look as good without the veil, but this ensures that actual *dancing* is taking place & also gives you a fall back on those days that the veil simply won't cooperate and you really do have to ditch it (as in, it's too late to yell at the stage hand who just opened the door & turned on the fan!!!)
QUOTE]

EXACTLY!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Mmmmhmmm! Here's my favorite clip of a veil-as-lover style, featuring our own Mariyah. And music OTHER than Yearning.

If that veil is her lover, he's too clingy! Speaking of my veil hating, I really find it distracting when a dancer wears her veil completely over her face. It isn't mysterious looking. It's making me wonder if she can see where she's going, and the fact that her veil is practically suffocating her face at the beginning of this clip is distressing. If you're sitting there in the restaurant, can you see the fabric flaring at her nostrils as she breathes? Eww...and her veil technique is very nice otherwise.

Originally Posted by Shaharazad

What is the name of this song (the one where Lauren posted the two videos of Aziza and Artemisa)? These are both beautiful choreo and they dance with the veil the whole time, I love it!

It's "Yearning" by Raul Ferrando, the first track on the fifth BDSS compilation, and in less than two years, it has vaulted into the esteemed Pantheon of Overused Songs. It's right up there with "Tahtil Shibbak" in the Beledi category, "Ayeela Tayeha" for Cane, and "Tablat Bassem" for Drum Solos--although, "Yearning" deserves special recognition for securing "Most Likely to Be Used" in BOTH Warm Up/Cool Down AND Veil Categories. It's a beautiful, haunting song, I like it, but I'm so sick of it. There are so many other great songs out there not getting used because everybody keeps picking this one.

If it is useful here is a veil dance play-list with a lot of the clips mentioned here and a few others - Click on the title to get the playlist:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=1DE6DC53C0650601]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

I just wanted to say *thank you* to everyone for this thread... as a newbie just wandering YouTube, I was noticing how often the veils just seemed like some sort of obligatory "props" that were draped, flicked, and quickly discarded.... or often had a strip tease sort of feeling. The videos you've all dug up and posted here really show how the veil can be a mesmerizing partner in a dance.

this is one of my all time favorites

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRc751UVu88]YouTube - Shems veil belly dance to Istanbul Istanbul Olali by Sezen Aksu[/ame]

Shoshana of California is exquisite

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI6dS4eOOEg]YouTube - Shoshanna - By Dancers For Dancers Volume 2[/ame]

she dance with her veil, as does Shems, but I've never seen one who treats her veil as much of a partner as she does. She is also Lora's daughter, of Lrose Designs

This one is new to me, but I'm sure I'll love it, Georges Lammam and Shoshanna together

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIoVTzcS_9Y]YouTube - Shoshanna Dances Sand in Flames with the Sunday Night Band[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sF4OMMusfXI]YouTube - Fabulous Four Yard Veil with Shoshanna - DVD preview[/ame]

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

It's "Yearning" by Raul Ferrando, the first track on the fifth BDSS compilation, and in less than two years, it has vaulted into the esteemed Pantheon of Overused Songs. It's right up there with "Tahtil Shibbak" in the Beledi category, "Ayeela Tayeha" for Cane, and "Tablat Bassem" for Drum Solos--although, "Yearning" deserves special recognition for securing "Most Likely to Be Used" in BOTH Warm Up/Cool Down AND Veil Categories. It's a beautiful, haunting song, I like it, but I'm so sick of it. There are so many other great songs out there not getting used because everybody keeps picking this one.

It's funny how regional these things are. I've literally seen only TWO performance to this song, ever, in my area, and I go to almost every hafla there is. And those two performances were over a year apart.

However, Aziza was here this spring and taught her veil choreo. I've been performing it here and there and one of my students and I are doing it as a duet. So we'll be adding to the problem I'm afraid. ..l;,

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I'm very partial to Artemisia's veil dance
YouTube - Eilat festival 2009- Artemisia from Belgium

or Aziza's piece to the same music -- I've been dancing this one and it just feels so goooood to do it.
YouTube - Aziza at Eilat festival 2009

What both clips share (besides the music) is

- The dancer comes out wrapped so her arms are free, but her body/costume are still highly visible so she can really dance (and there's no suggestion of a striptease when she removes the veil -- I often think that's an unintended consequence of 'hide the costume' wraps and moves)

- When the music crescendos, the veil comes into play to highlight spins and turns

- When the music slows back down, the veil gets artfully set aside (or could be held, as a frame)

- there's not TOO much veil-flinging. It gets flung occasionally, to take an accent in the music, but there's plenty of dancing as well.

It seemed like an awful lot of what Aziza taught us was the art of how to get the heck rid of the veil for a while so you could just dance! How to tuck it away while spinning and *not looking* at what your hands are doing, for instance.

As a teacher, veil is a great opportunity to teach open posture, extended arms. Veilwork collapses with poor posture and arms. It's also a great opportunity to teach turns, spins, and body lines.

That clip of Aziza is a beautiful example of a dancer using a veil to frame her movements and not BE the movement.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

It's funny how regional these things are. I've literally seen only TWO performance to this song, ever, in my area, and I go to almost every hafla there is. And those two performances were over a year apart.

However, Aziza was here this spring and taught her veil choreo. I've been performing it here and there and one of my students and I are doing it as a duet. So we'll be adding to the problem I'm afraid. ..l;,

Same here. Never heard it before. Hardly anyone does veil in my area anymore. In my day it was a bolero or rhumba or a nice juicy chiftitelli which I personally preferred as it gave me a great range of movements to work with.

Originally Posted by shems

If it is useful here is a veil dance play-list with a lot of the clips mentioned here and a few others - Click on the title to get the playlist:

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

That was lovely veil work. That reminded me of when I used to work in the Greek clubs and out of a 30 minute show TEN minutes were alloted for veil work. TEN minutes! I have a show on a cassette tape and I timed it. You had to love your veil!

Originally Posted by jesennia

I don't believe she has any dvds or you tube clips, you may have to purchase the old style vhs videos, but no one on this Earth DANCES with the veil, like Eva Cernik of Colorado (ok in my opinion :)

Dance classes by Eva Cernik: Turkish Oriental Cabaret, Gypsy and Egyptian (including Ghawazee) styles

I'm also deeply in love with Lulu Sabongi, and she has many you tube videos, here's one

YouTube - Lulu Sabongi 3

That was beautiful but it reminded me more of how we used to come out with an entrance vs. real veil work which was done with a rhumba, bolero or chifti and was slower and sensual. This to me seemed to be more like a dramatic opener vs a sensual interlude. We used to make grand entrances with yards and yards of fabric whether it be veil, cape, robes with full skirts, wings. I haven't seen someone do that in a while. It's been a dying art as costumes have become so minimal.

cory zamora

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fndHx9LCXPU]YouTube - Cory Zamora Famous Belly Dancer Teacher[/ame]

I just finished watching all the clips. Some lovely examples. I had no idea so many people were still doing veil. Like I said in my area it's almost a dying art. Most of the veil work I've seen has been the beginner class variety, wave left arm, the right arm then bring the two together......GRRRRRR!

I may have overlooked this info but what is the name of the song that Aziza and Artemisia are dancing to? I have that song, LOVE it, but don't know the name.

I was always taught - and also hold the same philisophy - that dancing with the veil should be either: "working' the veil, or dancing, and using the veil as a frame. Yes, it also works if you, here and there are doing a dance movement + doing things with the veil, (this is the exception to the rule, if it is done right) but it can look too hectic.
Some of the songs in my opinion, like the one above is ok to dance to mostly focusing on the veil, big dramatic movements, traveling, spins, etc. I feel that if there is an upbeat song before and after it with lots of actual dancing, a veil song like that can add a very nice variety.

And I also agree that every song that is learned / thought of dancing with the veil (I often feel: this song must be a veil song for me) should be able to be danced without it. Yes, it will be different, you can't just delete the veil, and do the same thing, but that is the challenge and the beauty of it.

The song Aziza and Artemisia were dancing to is called Yearning. It's on the Angelika Dances CD, and apparently it's also on a BDSS compilation (Torbeau said which one upthread, I don't remember).

I bought the Angelika Dances CD to get this song and I like it. The music is all very dramatic, some of it rather fusiony, spiffy drum solo -- it's a fun CD.

I have a clip on youtube here with a veil dance inspired by Aziza's beautiful veil work and framing:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H943DcyeqB0]YouTube - Khalida performing in Duisburg - December 2008[/ame]