Thread: male vs. female instructors?

Hi there!

In my spare time, I review YouTube & I am seeing more male dancers/instructors. I've taken classes with both genders & I was just talking about this topic with a dancer friend of mine.

Do you prefer female or male instructors? or both? I mean in another way, whose styles do you like & please specify.

For example. I am still partial to taking workshops with female instructors so I can see the curves, the moves, & gestures, etc. For male dancers, the hips moves are still a little restricted for my taste.

What do you say?

I've taken workshops with males in Egypt (Afifi, Reda, Sharif etc), Lebanon (shame on me...can't remember the guy's name) and Germany (Horacio Cifuentes) and I have to say I really enjoy male instructors.

Seeing the moves on a woman's body as opposed to a man's makes no difference to me....because, for me, just because a woman does a move and I copy doesn't mean that it will look the same on me - there is the factor of different body types and personality to factor into the move. You may say that personality doesn't really come into this but I've found it very much does so...even with ballerinas I can see them do one move and then another ballerina do the same but the move can look different.

I find it easier to bring out my dancing personality taught by a male...I don't know why that is, but that's what I've experienced.

I've taken several workshops with Yousry Sharif. I adore him, but I also adore his wife, Nourhan.

The only other man I've taken from is Tayyar Adkeniz, and he was wonderful.

I guess I haven't noticed a difference specific to being male or female. Except I can sense a difference in how some dancers respond to male instructors vs. female. I notice it more in conversations than in class, but it seems like male instructors are sometimes given more 'automatic respect' than females, who have to work harder to earn it. Maybe it's just because there's less competition to be a 'leading male instructor' than female, if that's a different category? But a woman has to have won some competitions, lived/worked in Egypt, or made herself an expert in some specific area, or epitomize a specific style to become an internationally recognized 'expert' on dance. Men just have to dance well.

*shrugs*

There are lots of men on my workshop wishlist, though. I'm looking forward to JimBoz, would LOVE to take a class with Tito, Amir Thaleb, or, of course, Mahmoud Reda.

Well I've taken workshops with both Tarik Sultan and now several this year with Jim Boz. I have to admit the only thing I find different with male instructors is that they tend to be a bit more playful/joking which I LOVE since I tend to retain more if I can laugh during a workshop. It probably has something to do with making a room full of women comfortable with a male teacher but I don't know the why of it for certain, just my own theory. All that having been said I don't have a particular preference for a male or female dance teacher, just so long as they know thier stuff and can put up with my flailing ..g.: I would happily bankrupt the hubby to follow Jim Boz around to take every workshop he teaches given half the chance. Amazing teacher and WAYYYYY too much fun! (Says the gal who is still processing everything from last weeknd's workshops with the Bozman ..g.: )

A woman's body is just different from a man's. Men tend to use different muscles for some movements (more leg and more muscles on the side of the body). This is especially visible on Egyptian Solo dancers - they keep the movements more "inside". Women who had mostly male teachers dance with a lot more leg work and bigger moves.

In general, however, I think it is quite interesting and inspiring to have sometimes a male teacher. However, since most of them come from dance groups it is not a 100 % beneficial for a Solo dancer.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I notice it more in conversations than in class, but it seems like male instructors are sometimes given more 'automatic respect' than females, who have to work harder to earn it.

That's so true.

In the last couple of weeks I have had workshops with a two fabulous male instructors (One of which was TITO OMG!!!) *cough* anyway... and this topic came up in conversation with my fellow dancers.

We thought that maybe the lack of a female to compare yourself to would enable a more individual feminine expression among students. Like if you had a goofy, outgoing male instructor you'd tend to loosen up a bit a not mind being a bit goofy and pushing your own boundaries.

What Nanda & Viv each said just came together in my head -- I wonder if a lot of us have an inner 12-year old who's still worried more about being judged by boys than by girls? If it's harder to push your boundaries and risk looking silly in front of males than females, on some primal level? If so, then some silliness/goofiness on the part of the instructor (pictures Magdy El Leisy) would surely help loosen you up.

Yousry is witty, but not silly. I would not enjoy feeling foolish in his class.

Conversely, are we also more likely to give our very best in their classes, reach a little further, be a little more 'on' during class than we would be with a woman in front? Is there some primal need to 'catch his eye,' get a nod, impress him, that might make us a slightly better student? Err, as long as it doens't get out of hand.

Just thinkin' out loud here. *ponder, ponder*

Interesting - there was a post on the political blog I visit about the fact that in college, women professors are treated more disrespectfully and/or less attentively by students than are male professors. And the biggest offenders are - you guess it - female students!

I didn't notice this when I was back this year - what I noticed was lack of attention overall - iPods in the ears, laptops blazing during lecture, and so on. However, I also noticed that some of the same kids exhibiting such distraction were extremely bright when they did contribute in class. Most of the younger women in my classes seemed very preoccupied with texting and chatting on the phone, horrifying language skills. "Like" every other word and so on....stupid conversations really (not that I was eavesdropping )

go figure, I chalked it up to being an old student in a young crowd with a low tolerance level for kids.

I will gladly take workshops from the "right" male instructor - this said I'm *VERY* careful about taking from males.

Rule 1: Does he masculinize or expect me to? If he does, he's out!

Rule 2: He may be a great dancer; but if the type/style of dancing he does is totally opposite of mine, I may not learn much that I can really use. Yes, its possible to learn from ANY dancer, regardless of style - but given limited time and a limited workshop budget, I'll usually pass. This applies, of course, to female dancers too...

I do have a strong preference for female instructors - its easier to see the movements on most female bodies. As a male, I'm painfully aware of my narrow hips and take costuming measures to make them show up better - male instructors need to take note! I'm especially fond of heavy built women instructors with very wide hips - a joy to follow! Tall, willowy ones work well for me also as I'm quite tall myself, even if I'm not exactly willowy!

I was doing a bit of stand-in teaching when my regular instructor was out of town - myself and another (female) student were co-instructors. I was demonstrating camels - the (beginner level) students got that just fine, but it wasn't so good when it came to Maias - I ended up telling them to "watch her" (my female co-teacher) as they couldn't see my Maias very well and I had neglected to bring any hip enhancements! ..cr.:

As for male teachers I've taken from, DaVid is tops as is John Compton. Kamaal was wonderful too once he figured out I wasn't into masculinzations - he and I became good friends.

Tarik I think would be tops too from what little of his dancing I've seen and the multitude of debates and conversations I've had with him online. Tito, Amir, etc.? I have no idea, they strike me as more folkloric in their styling (see rule #2).

Zorba, I don't know Tito's teaching, but he is not dancing folkloric at all. Every time I have seen him he does "Tito's style". He uses only a few movements. He uses very presice hip work and acsents, some deep bending and fast turnings/piruets - most of the time he includes shimmy, too. He doesn't have any folkloric part in his show. Mostly he works in Sharm El Sheik, which is a tourist place, so his dancing has a big "show-feeling".

The only issue with taking classes from a guy who looked like Tito? Unclean thoughts.

I took two Tito workshops at the IBDC, and he didn't strike me as folkloric in either of them. He taught a white-hot sassy shabbi, then a beautifully elegant and textured orientale. He's got this combination of playful, sensual and elegant that I think a lot of female dancers would give their left zill to have.

Originally Posted by mish_mish

The only issue with taking classes from a guy who looked like Tito? Unclean thoughts.

I have to admit, there were a couple points in the workshop where I blanked on what he had just taught, 'cause I was having a "personal" moment.

Cool about Tito then! ,r:; I just don't know that much about him.

Originally Posted by zorba

Cool about Tito then! ,r:; I just don't know that much about him.

That's why we are here in Bhuz. Just to let people know things, they didn't even want to know in the first place.

For me, it's not a question of what the instructor's gender is. It's a question of what they teach, how well it suits my current continuing education goals, and what the instructor's credentials are.

I've taken classes with Dr Mo Geddawi and Yousry Sharif - and I'd do so again and again. Not because they are male but because they have a wide understanding of the dance and can teach. And that is the issue to me rather than their sex.

As far as body shape goes - I remember a class with Shamira of Adelaide - she was doing something lovely with her arms. It took a while to realize my "bumps" meant I could never perfrom the same move on my body. Then on the other side Shareen el Safy was teaching a triple contraction in the belly. This time it was the ultra-thin dancers who could not make it look anywhere like as yummy.

Does that mean that curvaceous women shouldn't go to Shamira or thin women shouldn't go to Shareen? Of course not.

I have taken from many different (mostly Egyptian) male teachers. And my conclusion is that I have met practically no female diva teacher but quite a few male "diva" teachers.
What I especially don't like with some of them is this "Me big guru - you stupid little European student" thing.
Kiss the floor he's walking on! Don't ever dare to question him! He is EGYPTIAN! He KNOWS how it's done!
Then they go on any say how we can't really learn Raqs Sharqi anyway because we're Western - but of course they'll gladly take our money. ,m::

Oh, and to be very mean and generalizing, there are two kind of male teachers: Either they are gay or they are there to pick up women... Yeah, I HOPE you know an exception to this rule, but I have made my experiences!
A little touch here a special "private lesson" there....

So frankly, the only male teacher I will 100% recommend is Mo Geddawi. I like his choreos and can even remember them ..g.: He doesn't put on an attitude and doesn't prefer one student over the other. Nice man.

MEISSOUN

In the couple of videos I've seen of him, Tito reminds me a little bit of Dina, actually. Is that insane?

It really depends on the teacher. I've enjoyed workshops with a number of male instructors (Yousry, Khaled, DaVid, Kazafy, and most definitely Mahmoud Reda) but I agree that some of the Egyptian men do seem to look down on us as westerners and a number have a major ego thing going on.

I also get the feeling that some of them get rather erm over excited teaching a room-full of women. I have a bit of an issue with the way some of them go overboard on the 'oh you women are so sexy the way you make these moves' and although I'm no prude, the classes can get a bit too sexualised for my taste. At a workshop a couple of years ago, the instructor (an Egyptian, can't remember his name) got us doing wide legged pelvic thrusts for a little too long in my book and got us pretending to pull our tops off our shoulders over and over again .p::

I also don't like being told by men how women behave when they're being sexy. Yes, it's interesting hearing how Egyptian men perceive women's behaviour but it seems to be based on such silly stereotypes. Finally, I get profoundly irritated by the way some women behave in classes with male instructors - they become like silly geese ,m::

Sorry, i really am sounding like an old woman

Having said that, I have really enjoyed some classes with male instructors, and, even though he's got major ego issues, I'm really looking forward to Yousry's class when he comes back to Fantasia in December

I've taken workshops with both Tarik, Amir Thaleb and Jim Boz and love them all. But in particular Jim has helped me immensely. I'll tell you why.

The first time I saw Jim Boz the light bulb went off in my head. For the first time I saw a dancer who was shaped like me--broad shoulders, larger upper body and smaller lower body, a belly and not much butt. The typical T apple shape. Jim very graciously spent some one-on-one time with me helping me understand how to get more range of motion from my smaller hips while keeping balance on a narrower base. And he suggested some female dancers with same shape that I could watch. And for this I am forever grateful because it was a great A-ha moment for me.

Since then I have taken more workshops with Jim Boz and come to admire sharp, compact hip moves and musicality. And I always remember his comment about why he does so much ab work--to remind him to suck his gut in. I have the same problem and it really resonated with me.

Souzan

Originally Posted by sunshine

Finally, I get profoundly irritated by the way some women behave in classes with male instructors - they become like silly geese

Yes, at large dance events I've seen women shriek and madly applaud male performers who were still at the level of beginning students simply because of their maleness. (And I'm not referring to friends/classmates cheering on one of their own.)

I don't blame the men for the stupid behavior of the women in the audience, though I do have an issue with those who conclude from such audience behavior that they don't have to bother making the effort to BECOME good.

I have had male instructors for other forms of dance and it honestly doesn't matter except when hips are involved. I take a hip hop class from a man with tiny hips (who also happens to wear baggy pants) and I'll be durned if I know what he is doing with his hips even when he says we're doing a hip accent.

But it does annoy me when women fall all over a male instructor. I like women but I do not fall all over female instructors! It should be a professional relationship between students and teacher anyway.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

In the couple of videos I've seen of him, Tito reminds me a little bit of Dina, actually. Is that insane?

No, I agree. He definitely has that quality and dances his own way.

Sunshine,

I had a conversation recently with someone about men who are attracted to belly dance as photographers, musicians, teachers, etc. Naturally one can't generalize, but more often than not there are tell-tale signs of what the motivation is.

I think about a band I saw blatantly enjoying the costume malfunction of a dancer recently and exacerbating the situation; or a photographer who people tend to think very highly of who takes okay photos and is definitely more on the pervy side, IMO - (he shoots dancers for free, come on, d'oh); or the male observers of belly dance shows who leave the show to chat with friends over a cigarette or drink and mimic undulations with a few hip thrusts while saying, "dude, you need to go watch you some of that it will rock your world, know what I'm sayin'."

So is some of all that natural? Yeah, no one says there aren't hangers on or that belly dance isn't sexy. I just think it's good to be honest and aware of it cuz it ain't goin' away.

Originally Posted by sunshine

Sorry, i really am sounding like an old woman

Noooo, thank you for saying all of that, I've felt most of it at some time. I haven't yet had the pervy instructor, but I would feel skeevy, too, if I'd been in the class you described.

Originally Posted by meissoun

I have taken from many different (mostly Egyptian) male teachers. And my conclusion is that I have met practically no female diva teacher but quite a few male "diva" teachers.
What I especially don't like with some of them is this "Me big guru - you stupid little European student" thing.
Kiss the floor he's walking on! Don't ever dare to question him! He is EGYPTIAN! He KNOWS how it's done!

They don't even have to be Egyptian - there is at least one very well known AMERICAN male dancer who, let's just say, overestimates his importance to the dance form.

Oh, and to be very mean and generalizing, there are two kind of male teachers: Either they are gay or they are there to pick up women... Yeah, I HOPE you know an exception to this rule, but I have made my experiences!
A little touch here a special "private lesson" there....

Ahem..... .p::

I'm not exactly an instructor - having just filled in a couple of times for my teacher's beginner's class - but I'm neither gay nor there to pick up women, ogle them, or otherwise make them uncomfortable! My wife and I will be celebrating our 23rd anniversary next Saturday....

But I'm really only "pulling your leg" Meissoun - I'm sure you've encountered this and it angers me. Male dancers have it hard enough without this kind of nonsense going on! A well timed slap to the face could be in order....

Nepenthe - I hear you about hips - tell your hip-hop instructor to add some enhancements or at least wear tighter pants!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Yes, at large dance events I've seen women shriek and madly applaud male performers who were still at the level of beginning students simply because of their maleness. (And I'm not referring to friends/classmates cheering on one of their own.)

I know exactly what you mean - and this really does the male no good at the end of the day. He may never improve as he thinks he's the Goddess's gift to BD from such reactions. I've seen way too many male dancers with a diva complex who really can't - or won't, dance - but rather rely on "stupid male tricks" which don't really have anything to do with dancing.

Originally Posted by zorba

Yes, at large dance events I've seen women shriek and madly applaud male performers who were still at the level of beginning students simply because of their maleness. (And I'm not referring to friends/classmates cheering on one of their own.)

I know exactly what you mean - and this really does the male no good at the end of the day. He may never improve as he thinks he's the Goddess's gift to BD from such reactions. I've seen way too many male dancers with a diva complex who really can't - or won't, dance - but rather rely on "stupid male tricks" which don't really have anything to do with dancing.

Zorba, you are sooooooo right. male dancers and very young dancers often get stuck and don't advance. they get so much attention and praise because of their sex or age, and they don't realize their training isn't done. a young dancer in our scene was quite the darling at 14 or 15 - very talented and in a very short time was garnering a lot of praise because she was dancing years ahead of her age and experience. i saw her years later and her dancing had not improved so her performance was excruciating: dancing that was worthy of praise when done by a 15 year old was sloppy and pointless when done by a 25 year old.
think of that little girl on that English singing competition: her voice is amazing for a 7 year old, but if she still singing like that in 10 years, people will be throwing rotten produce.


i don't care what the instructor's sex is, if she/he can dance and teach. two of my most fav teachers are Momo Kadous and Mo Geddawi. i'll study with them any time i can.

My favorite male teachers other than Jim Boz & Tarik is Momo Kadus. I love his style.. I take his workshops everytime he came to the states.(April this yearin NYC)
Alrana