Thread: Vintage Oriental Dance by Suha Deeb

Hello,

I do have the official footage from Irab and permission to use some of it from the director of the organisation, however it needs to be converted from DV cassette before I can upload and edit any of it. I'm working on getting that done soon.


Meanwhile, here is a clip of me performing to 'Ya Helu Nadili' by Karem Mahmoud, filmed by a student of mine who was sitting in the audience. This is from my concerts at Masrah al Madina that opened the Musica 3 series, sponsored by Irab, a registered non-profit that is dedicated to preserving and promoting authentic Arabic arts.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-zLFbuNHsc]YouTube - Suha Deeb in Concert, Masrah al Madina[/ame]

Many thanks to Irina Barzinskiene who did a great job filming with a hand-held camera!

Beautiful classic style!!! Reminds me of a young Nadia Gamal

What a treat to see the living roots of American Vintage Oriental. Your's is a very powerful and beautiful dance. Thank you.

wow wow wow...thanks for sharing.

Wonderful! SHUKRAN - Thanks so much for sharing!!!

Girls, you are confusing me.
One post says Nadia Gamal and the other an example of American Vintage.
It's always good to see members dancing so Suha which vintage style do you favour?( I always define vintage by 40 years ago or more.)
I know you are dedicated to keeping the spirit of the traditions of the dance so which is your favoured style and era?

Hey Suha! Where have you been? Haven't seen you on bhuz lately! Thanks for posting.

Actually... I said the root of American Vintage.

Originally Posted by anala

Actually... I said the root of American Vintage.

Still puzzled...

I've always understood Suha's style is vintage Lebanese . . .

Originally Posted by kat

I've always understood Suha's style is vintage Lebanese . . .

That's what I was guessing it would be...

I believe that Anala is saying that because vintage Lebanese was an important influence in vintage American (along with Turkish), that the former gives insight into the development of the latter.

Originally Posted by ssipes

I believe that Anala is saying that because vintage Lebanese was an important influence in vintage American (along with Turkish), that the former gives insight into the development of the latter.

Yeah, that's what I thought she meant, too.

Originally Posted by ssipes

I believe that Anala is saying that because vintage Lebanese was an important influence in vintage American (along with Turkish), that the former gives insight into the development of the latter.

Thanks..... at last.
Vintage American is not something I am familar with so it's interesting to here of the Lebanese connection.

I don't know what Suha meant by "vintage oriental dance" you would have to ask her and have her define it.

I never heard of "vintage Lebanese". But I'm not familar with how Lebanese dancers danced before Nadia Gamal's time. I don't really consider Nadia Gamal to be "vintage" but rather a major influence to the current Lebanese style much the way we consider Tahia Karioka to be the mother of Egyptian style belly dance.

Her costume is certainly vintage with the 3 panel skirt and lots of legs showing. And her style isn't the same as what the current Lebanese dancers are dancing from the 1990's on. Even though she uses the veil I wouldn't classify her style as "American Vintage Oriental" which was more Turkish based and dancers played zills and did more elaborate veil work.

I can't wait for Suha to respond and clarify for us.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

Girls, you are confusing me.
One post says Nadia Gamal and the other an example of American Vintage.
It's always good to see members dancing so Suha which vintage style do you favour?( I always define vintage by 40 years ago or more.)
I know you are dedicated to keeping the spirit of the traditions of the dance so which is your favoured style and era?

The two are not at all unrelated. Nadia Gamal was one of the important early influences on American Vintage (Cabaret, whatever) -- Bobby Farrah was heavily influenced by her.. She was perhaps the first (? correct me if I'm wrong?) 'native' teacher to travel here and give workshops -- certainly one of the earliest, anyway.

Besides the clubs (largely Turkish, I think) Nadia was probably one of the strongest early influences on American style dance.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

The two are not at all unrelated. Nadia Gamal was one of the important early influences on American Vintage (Cabaret, whatever) -- Bobby Farrah was heavily influenced by her.. She was perhaps the first (? correct me if I'm wrong?) 'native' teacher to travel here and give workshops -- certainly one of the earliest, anyway.

Besides the clubs (largely Turkish, I think) Nadia was probably one of the strongest early influences on American style dance.

Thanks..this is interesting. Whoever said you can ever stop learning about this dance!!!!..g.:

I hope I'm correct in my information, but it is my understanding that Suha is from a dance family - she learned from her grandmother and mother who were dancers (although I think her mother retired from public performance early - I don't remember the whole story accurately). This is why Suha's style is so classic. It is very Lebanese and really nice to finally see in costume, on stage.

I wish I could have been there in person. Hopefully I will still get my opportunity to see Suha perform live.

I'm actually a little surprised at how wide your stance is Suha, through most of the dance. I don't think it detracts, it seems to suit what's happening, but it isn't what I'm used to.

I Pm'd Suha about her stance as I was also a bit suprised by it - as it gets hammered into us to keep our stance under the body. It fits the power and earthiness of what she is doing very well. I think a wider stance may give a dancer the power to move quickly in any direction with more intention and speed. Suha said her power for ab work comes from the strong base she provides with her legs. Hope she comes back to her own thread.

Originally Posted by anala

I Pm'd Suha about her stance as I was also a bit suprised by it - as it gets hammered into us to keep our stance under the body. It fits the power and earthiness of what she is doing very well. I think a wider stance may give a dancer the power to move quickly in any direction with more intention and speed. Suha said her power for ab work comes from the strong base she provides with her legs. Hope she comes back to her own thread.

I too was surprised by the wide stance all through out. I occassionally use a wide stance for a few specific moves but mostly I keep my legs pretty close together.

That was completely beautiful - thanks for posting.

OK, so I am not going to make myself popular here, but....

After Suha telling so many people (including me) for years that she was the greatest thing since sliced bread I had very high expectations of her dance performance.

Honestly, I am not impressed. I expected a dancer with a larger repertoire of movements. And the arms seem to have a life of their own going endlessly up and down.
Suha, before attacking me now, please watch the video again and tell me if I am right or wrong?
If you tell everybody how fabulous you are, we expect outstanding things of you.

It's totally possible that other people think that it's a nice performance, but in my eyes there is some room for improvement. And I know that other people are of the same opinion, they just don't want to risk telling it openly. (At least I can't be accused of "talking behind a dancer's back"....)

MEISSOUN

In Suha's defense, I believe what she is doing is very authentic.

I know she sees this classic style as being more true to her heritage than the more modern stuff you see (particularly in Lebanon) from most dancers these days. In her mind, this style is infinitely superior and she does talk big about it. I could see how this can really bother somebody, particularly when she directs criticism towards something that you've done or love because it isn't to her taste.

I guess it makes sense for you to lay your standard on her as she has laid hers on you.

For me, I look back at Samia Gamal for example, her arms were endlessly busy and Tahia Karioka would often use a very limited vocabulary for a whole song. I think what Suha draws from is more akin' to these dancers than to a more modern aesthetic. (Having taken a few workshops with Suha, I can attest personally to her having a much much wider dance vocabulary over all.)

I actually do like a lot of the more modern flair I see from a lot of dancers (Lebanese and otherwise). I loved a lot of what Nadia Gamal did, even though I know Suha wasn't a big fan of a lot of her innovations. The same with Amani and I know Suha's not remotely a fan of hers.

But I try to appreciate each dance I see for what it is, not what I think it should be. For my eyes, this dance of Suha's had skill, feeling, uniqueness and a classic-ness to it that I don't see very often. I really loved it.

Originally Posted by shems

In Suha's defense, I believe what she is doing is very authentic.

I know she sees this classic style as being more true to her heritage than the more modern stuff you see (particularly in Lebanon) from most dancers these days. In her mind, this style is infinitely superior and she does talk big about it. I could see how this can really bother somebody, particularly when she directs criticism towards something that you've done or love because it isn't to her taste.

I guess it makes sense for you to lay your standard on her as she has laid hers on you.

For me, I look back at Samia Gamal for example, her arms were endlessly busy and Tahia Karioka would often use a very limited vocabulary for a whole song. I think what Suha draws from is more akin' to these dancers than to a more modern aesthetic. (Having taken a few workshops with Suha, I can attest personally to her having a much much wider dance vocabulary over all.)

I actually do like a lot of the more modern flair I see from a lot of dancers (Lebanese and otherwise). I loved a lot of what Nadia Gamal did, even though I know Suha wasn't a big fan of a lot of her innovations. The same with Amani and I know Suha's not remotely a fan of hers.

But I try to appreciate each dance I see for what it is, not what I think it should be. For my eyes, this dance of Suha's had skill, feeling, uniqueness and a classic-ness to it that I don't see very often. I really loved it.

I second all of this 100%. How many legends of the dance - Fifi Abdo, for example - have a repertoire of like 5 movements? And yet we acknowledge that they are legends not because of how many whiz-bang tricks that they pull out of their hat, but because of how they utilize their repertoire of movement to convey what's happening in the music.

I saw a lot of Taheya Carioca in the clip (the front-oriented hip circles with arms over head, for example). No, I'm not a fan of Suha's wide stance. But I can appreciate the overall elegance of the routine and the old-style grace and simplicity of it.

And RE: the confusion on the title "Vintage Oriental"...I am quite sure that Suha is referencing the fact that her style is PRE Nadia Gamal, therefore "vintage".

Nisaa

FWIW, my entirely subjective opinion - I too was not used to seeing such a wide stance in belly dance, although I believe Morocco also uses it.

Apart from that, I thought the dance beautifully captured the "vintage" feel that she was going for. Having the band and the live audience gave it that extra ambiance that you just can't get in a studio film of a dance.

She looked powerful, graceful, fluid, sinuous. She brought back the feelings I had when watching my first belly dance performances so many years ago (33 years ago!).

Thanks for everybody's inputs. I guess I just "don't get" this style of dancing.

I also find it interesting how different persons are sensitive to different things. The wide stance, though not very elegant, didn't bother me.
But I have been working a lot on arm styling, so this is the thing that really caught my eyes.

MEISSON

Hi Everyone,

Regarding the wide stance: the video is stretched a little! Also a lot of movements done by Tahia Carioca and Samia Jamal involved a wide stance (especially the signature movement of Tahia's, the forward hip circle).

Meissoun, maybe the reason you don't get this style is because you may not be use to seeing this classical style done by anyone nowadays? There is almost no one doing this style except Suha. This clip of her concert is very classic, vintage, and yet all her own.

Also if you look carefully, Suha does have a large repertoire of steps and moves. She tends to use certain ones more than others but I can probably point out at least 10 without even looking at the clip again.

Concerning her arms, they are very reminiscent of the 1940s Egyptian Cinema. I don't think they are at all busy. They "work" with the music. I think a lot of modern belly dance involves framing movements with the arms versus using the arms musically.

Hope that helps!

Mark B.

Originally Posted by Mark Balahadia

Hi Everyone,

Regarding the wide stance: the video is stretched a little! Also a lot of movements done by Tahia Carioca and Samia Jamal involved a wide stance (especially the signature movement of Tahia's, the forward hip circle).

Meissoun, maybe the reason you don't get this style is because you may not be use to seeing this classical style done by anyone nowadays? There is almost no one doing this style except Suha. This clip of her concert is very classic, vintage, and yet all her own.

Also if you look carefully, Suha does have a large repertoire of steps and moves. She tends to use certain ones more than others but I can probably point out at least 10 without even looking at the clip again.

Concerning her arms, they are very reminiscent of the 1940s Egyptian Cinema. I don't think they are at all busy. They "work" with the music. I think a lot of modern belly dance involves framing movements with the arms versus using the arms musically.

Hope that helps!

Mark B.

We were discussing this on the "rawness" thread. Dancers today or so posed and choreographed and that comes off across so much better on youtube than raw dancers who tend to come across so much better live.

Originally Posted by norma

We were discussing this on the "rawness" thread. Dancers today or so posed and choreographed and that comes off across so much better on youtube than raw dancers who tend to come across so much better live.

I totally agree with this!