Thread: *spinoff* European and other non-US styles

In the America's Top Bellydancer thread, there was mention of the difference between US-style belly dance and European (and Australian) - with the idea that the US dancers are over-choreographed and don't understand the music (my synopsis).

I'd like to see some examples of what Europeans (UK included) and Australians (and anyone else) feel is representative of the style that they understand and prefer over what is generally perceived to be the flashier US style.

The European dancers I can name off the top of my head still have a "western-ness" to their dancing - Horacio and Beata, Djamila (heavily Jillina-influenced), Soraya Hilal (???), Khadejah (US-born)...

Who am I missing? What is representative of the style of dancing in the MED diaspora that is different from what the US is doing?

I think that there is definitely a difference in the way most US dancers interpret music. At times I do see a routine and a showcase of technique rather the flow of movement, even during an improvisation. Not to say that there is anything wrong with that, but I was just watching the latest videos from Ahlan wa Sahlan 2009 with mostly Europian dancers and noticed a certain lightness to their dance. It's as though they don't feel the pressure to show off just how well they know a particular song - shimmy here, hip drop here, accent here.

I think that the well known dancers from Europe happen to be the dancers who know how to market themselves and might have adapted a more marketable style then most european dancers.

What I've seen in dancers in the Netherlands and Germany is less focus on promoting yourself and more on deepening the understanding of dance.

We have a truckload of really good dancers who do not promote themselves well. Though recently, things are shifting towards BDSS dancers who promote themselves well, but have never heard of Oum Kolthoum.

Are there any clips at all out there?

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

In the America's Top Bellydancer thread, there was mention of the difference between US-style belly dance and European (and Australian) - with the idea that the US dancers are over-choreographed and don't understand the music (my synopsis).

That's interesting. I spent over 5 years in Germany, and they say we're over choreographed? I only really learned/performed choreography, virtually no improv or live music. Whereas in my US neck of the woods, we had a lot more live music and improv drills, etc.

There is certainly less of an emphasis on technique, which might explain some of the "softness" someone mentioned. My German BD classes all consisted of of a little warm-up maybe a drill or two, then it was right into a choreography. The only exception was a little bit of folkloric I took, where we did a little bit of improv. In the US (granted I studied with Severina and Rachel George) there was a huge emphasis on technique and strength, I rarely learned choreos.

I took here in Munich:

Zentrum für Orientalischen Tanz - Home

Literally every weekend, they have a workshop to teach students a choreography.

I think there's also an emphasis on having a wide repertoire, being able to dance sword, cane, wings, etc and having big, elaborate student showcases.

My teacher in the Nuremberg area:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLUKzDYvRR4]YouTube - Enussah - Basbousa and Drum Solo[/ame]

I don't have youtube clips of my teachers in Munich, but Said Al Amir was pretty popular, and he travels a teaches choreos pretty often in Germany:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_0ZCquqmsQ]YouTube - Bellydance • Hilwa Labaadi • Said el Amir • jomdance®[/ame]

Reyhan in Frankfurt is pretty well know and may have been Djamila's teacher:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhXYeifKejs]YouTube - Reyhan - oriental Dancer Frankfurt dancing Tamr-Henna[/ame]

Then there's always Leyla Jouvana:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiAHVoadmzo]YouTube - Leyla Jouvana & Roland Drum Solo[/ame]

I have a German student who is terrified of improv. She took classes for a while in Germany and the teacher always taught choreography. She will be going to back to live in a few months and I may have ruined her for her next teacher by insisting she dance some improv and technique drills.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLWNh4ra6TE&feature=related]YouTube - GoldenPharaohLorna1[/ame]


Scotland's Lorna Gow.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmlDvRGkxIs&feature=PlayList&p=719CFE283B4 241AF&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=9]YouTube - yasmina of cairo entrance[/ame]

Yasmina of Cairo

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQh0spfvDpw]YouTube - Tracey at JOY[/ame]

Bhuzzer Tracey Gibbs : Photo

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVCFcdt6lhg&feature=related]YouTube - The Uzumé 2007 - Tribal Fusion Bellydance[/ame]

The Uzume from the Netherlands: the best tribal fusion I have ever seen.

I have seen the 3 dancers I posted. All are obviously Egyptian style which is now the favoured style I would say.The Suraya Hilal movement does not hold the sway it one did.. Yasmina and Lorna live and dance in Cairo. Yasmina has been there for many years and Lorna has been employed there the last couple of years and her dancing at JoY this year was wonderful. Yasmina is grace itself . Tracey is another who has dedicated so much time learning from Egyptian experts both home and in Egypt.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBXlhR1Kly8]YouTube - Fereshteh Hosseini Modern Oriental[/ame]

Feresteh Hosseini of Scotland

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asdmoEBQ2hs]YouTube - Tanya-Belly Dancer[/ame]

Tanya Bamford-King of Tauranga.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGE4284fVN0]YouTube - Belly Hoo[/ame]

A compilation of clips of Tanya's student troupe, which I think is a fairly good representation of the better community-type dance in NZ. Notice how multi-style it is.

Some Gypsy Caravan-style tribal from Clessidra:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6bwIuKMlPQ]YouTube - The Huntress[/ame]

So I was thinking more about it and the reason I think some dancers may look more choreographed is because they tend to go for more modern, pop music pieces to apeal to the audience. Also music with many accents that could help show off the skill, like drum solos. I wanted to find something that would help to put US and non-US styles side by side without the props or any other distractions. So I chose 2 clips of US style dancers and 2 non-US dancers dancing to Baed Anak, because in my opinion this best represents differences in musicality and dancing styles. They are all good but so different.

Sahra

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcjoFMphzeU]YouTube - Sahra Saeeda[/ame]

Ava

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pcBTD9ywDY]YouTube - Ava Fleming[/ame]

Mercedes Nieto

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5V8Q8jFfwY&feature=related]YouTube - Mercedes Nieto - raqs sharki to Oum Kalthoum's song[/ame]

Antonella

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93iydekCTAo&feature=related]YouTube - Antonella en Colette - Baid anak[/ame]

I will admit that I haven't watched all the clips yet nor have I read the other post that lead to this spin-off, but this US vs. non-US comparisons seems very narrow. I have my experience with Germany, where just about everything was choreographed, and the emphasis in classes was on choreography over technique and musicality. And granted, that could be limited to Bavaria, where I was living.

But it seems to be me that there are lots of local/regional differences in belly dancing which typically has a lot of that has to do with audience expectations and preferences. Don't lots of Russian and Argentinian dancers get flack for over dancing, over choreographing and doing too much acrobatic work and lack of musical understanding? I seem to recall such discussions on tribe and youtube about Maria Shaskova and Saida among others. I totally have this memory of seeing I think it was Maria Shaskova running around stage doing multiple Turkish drops on a big stage and a lot of people really disliking her interpretation of Oum Kalthoum songs. So I guess my long-winded point is I don't we can simply say it's just US dancers who obsess over technique and fancy accents.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

In the America's Top Bellydancer thread, there was mention of the difference between US-style belly dance and European (and Australian) - with the idea that the US dancers are over-choreographed and don't understand the music (my synopsis).

I'd like to see some examples of what Europeans (UK included) and Australians (and anyone else) feel is representative of the style that they understand and prefer over what is generally perceived to be the flashier US style.

The European dancers I can name off the top of my head still have a "western-ness" to their dancing - Horacio and Beata, Djamila (heavily Jillina-influenced), Soraya Hilal (???), Khadejah (US-born)...

Who am I missing? What is representative of the style of dancing in the MED diaspora that is different from what the US is doing?

Hey TXhenna!
Well, IMHO, I think it is reflected in the following areas:
- grounding
- center (high high / high / low / low low)
- timing and pacing
- music interpretation
- cultural adaptation
- market adaptation

The influence in Europe has been heavy on the Egyptian side due to the close proximity to Egypt and the frequency of Egyptian instructors being hosted all over Europe.

I dont think people are necessarily reacting to US VS Euro VS Egyptian... but more to westernized VS Egyptian... high high/high center in dance is more western (recalls being told to stand up straight all the time in boarding school).

As for references to Euro dancers... well... I'm one. and here are some more:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_6ybJT9kZw]YouTube - www.magedans.no-- Balady (Balady & Drumsolo)[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mAk6BiZs8A]YouTube - Helene - Shaaby[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gokk1BBG3mI]YouTube - Norwegian bellydancer[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J54UNU0UpgM]YouTube - Divas of Bellydance - So You Think You Can Dance Norway[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDpLt-iT4o8]YouTube - Farida - raqs sharqi[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0h2Jz_YQPQ]YouTube - Lena Helt - Shaabi[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SivF-yeWPM]YouTube - Lena Helt - Faddah[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMV_19MaE6k]YouTube - bellydance by annamay[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaXzRNu3aII]YouTube - Ahmed Refaat and Nefertari dancing saiidi[/ame] (the whole troupe behind Ahmed Refaat)
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV7rAhPNmg0]YouTube - Raks el Hawanem[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cfAjBn7J3E]YouTube - SAMASEM at Pullman Cairo-99 ."Baen aleya hobbo"[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzMHkS1bxlA]YouTube - Bellydance by Shereen[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LySh-fpWywU]YouTube - bellydance by Shereen[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgaJMCvZDU4]YouTube - SHAMS EL AMAR WITH TWO STICKS[/ame]

So what I'm seeing really doesn't look much different from a lot of dancers I've seen here in the US.

Also, does anyone know where I can get that version of Ya Wad Ya Teel from the clip of AnnaMay?

Okay, I hate to flagrantly flaunt my ignorance, but in the Shaabi vid by Lena Helt, what is that "screwing in a lightbulb" gesture? I've seen it many times, but have never inquired or been told before what it means...

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

So what I'm seeing really doesn't look much different from a lot of dancers I've seen here in the US.

Also, does anyone know where I can get that version of Ya Wad Ya Teel from the clip of AnnaMay?

In the UK and I am sure other European nations, you will get dancers who are inspired by BDSS and Jillina and you will get those to whom the shows we saw were an anathema. There will be those like Yasmina and Lorna who live and work in Cairo and those who wish to be taught what they learnt.
I bet it's the same in the USA but maybe in different proportions and certainly in different numbers.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

So what I'm seeing really doesn't look much different from a lot of dancers I've seen here in the US.

What is done in Europe honestly ISN'T always that different from what's done in the US in some areas or by some dancers. You being in Texas are kind of "spoiled" because to me some of the non-ME Raqs Sharki dancers that best grasp the Egyptian linguid movement and timing come from there.

You really have to get into the nitty gritty of the body alignment, centering, movement anatomy, movement initiation, timing, grounding and a dancer's initial reaction pattern to music (talking of experienced dancers of course).

But you have to realize that a lot of the exposure to American dancers for Europeans is not the dancers you refer to. Being in the US going on 4 years now I have found these jewels of discoveries in dance hidden behind what I had a prior understanding of what was "how Americans dance". Europe is largely dominated by Egyptian dance, training and exposure. European dancers take the template of Egyptian dance as they have learned it and apply it on the TV or computer screen before they watch a dancer...any minor "discrepency" is easily noticed - merely because they mostly dont see anything else.

I cant speak for what the BDSS and youtube have done for the European scene as I haven't actually lived there for 4 years, but I would imagine that the established dancers continue to read movements, techique and combinations with Egyptian goggles on, just like mainstream educated American dancers will read movements, technique and combinations with goggles from whatever style they are more exposed to.

As for the over-choreographed grievance; Most dancers frame out their performances. Most artists will frame out how to get their vision across. This is same both in Europe and the US and Egypt. I think dancers with a more or less consistent high center execution look "westernized" and tend to look like they are doing a choreography demonstration. That goes for dancers from any continent. To me, it looks like the dancer is not "digging into it"...causing me to percieve an arrogant, insincere effort and lack of commitment to the material.

With the continued globalization of our dances and the younger generation's more international exposure, I would imagine that the typical dancer in the future would be a "bellydancer" and not a "middle eastern arts representative". I would imagine that it would require a deliberate definition and concious choice to focus purely on Egyptian or Turkish or ACB or Lebanese style - making it a constant "struggle" to filter the information that comes in.

...and I of course include myself in both the European and the American dance contingencies. I am a part of a long lineage of dancers from both continents - and I am proud to aknowledge that.

DaVid

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Okay, I hate to flagrantly flaunt my ignorance, but in the Shaabi vid by Lena Helt, what is that "screwing in a lightbulb" gesture? I've seen it many times, but have never inquired or been told before what it means...

Done like Lena did it it is a reference to "you crazy" (majnoun)

And then there's DaVid from Scandinavia. . .a fabulous example of a European bellydancer.

deleted

tamrahennatx...you got me thinking...I am wondering if maybe it isn't so much a difference in regional styling, but the original training of some of the dancers you've mentioned, Beata and Horatio in particular. They come from a strong Ballet background, which I consider to be Western dance, so thus they would have a more "American" or Western flavor to their dance. We haven't seen any Russian clips here, but the Russian style has always had a quality that I can't put my finger on that attracts me...and am now wondering if a Ballet influence has anything to do with that? Dancers like Jillina and Aziza, whom IMHO sort of straddle Egytptian and American style also have strong background in Western dance, whereas Sahra Saida I don't believe has a Western dance background but I would put closer to Egyptian flavor than any other North American dancer off the top of my head.

So there must be dancers from every region of the world who either have never studied anything other than ME dance, and dancers who came to ME dance after exposure to other Western forms of dance. I think it would be difficult to remove these stylistic differences from one's expression, so maybe it itsn't so much regional differences as it is dance training and "lineage" that has more to do with it?

Originally Posted by elljay

tamrahennatx...you got me thinking...I am wondering if maybe it isn't so much a difference in regional styling, but the original training of some of the dancers you've mentioned, Beata and Horatio in particular. They come from a strong Ballet background, which I consider to be Western dance, so thus they would have a more "American" or Western flavor to their dance. We haven't seen any Russian clips here, but the Russian style has always had a quality that I can't put my finger on that attracts me...and am now wondering if a Ballet influence has anything to do with that? Dancers like Jillina and Aziza, whom IMHO sort of straddle Egytptian and American style also have strong background in Western dance, whereas Sahra Saida I don't believe has a Western dance background but I would put closer to Egyptian flavor than any other North American dancer off the top of my head.

So there must be dancers from every region of the world who either have never studied anything other than ME dance, and dancers who came to ME dance after exposure to other Western forms of dance. I think it would be difficult to remove these stylistic differences from one's expression, so maybe it itsn't so much regional differences as it is dance training and "lineage" that has more to do with it?

Ya Elljay, as always - great points. I would add learned cultural perception of posture and movement as well to the equation alongside dance training and lineage. I think we as dancers all have to fight with these 3 things in one way or another in order to get a better understanding for dance. I tell you, the first ballroom class I ever took was an "adventure" as I had never ever actually thought about how low we sit in Bhangra (read: grounded). Even after a year of classes I couldnt find a heart in it at all. Today, I love it. I love watching it. But it took a while to "unlearn" my default perception of what posture and movement is and add the different categories of posture to my understanding.

In the west we are taught to stand up straight, keep our legs together, keep our knees together. In dance language that can be read as high center, equal weight and narrow stance. For Egyptian dance where the movement more or less happens by or during a weight change it becomes hard to define a change of weight if one's perception of proper weight distribution is "equal".

Just sharing some thoughts,

DaVid

Originally Posted by elljay

We haven't seen any Russian clips here, but the Russian style has always had a quality that I can't put my finger on that attracts me...and am now wondering if a Ballet influence has anything to do with that?

Yes, a lot of the big name Russian dancers have had ballet training, I think Evegina Kopteva is a good example:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8XOodMfEC4]YouTube - Evgenia Kopteva (final)[/ame]

I've also seen that balletic influence in a lot of Latin American dancers like Saida and Kahina:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hyDw-7G-8k]YouTube - Saida - Bellydance[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfzqszgOfQQ]YouTube - Kahina - Clássico - Noite de Gala[/ame]

Originally Posted by elljay

tamrahennatx...you got me thinking...I am wondering if maybe it isn't so much a difference in regional styling, but the original training of some of the dancers you've mentioned, Beata and Horatio in particular. They come from a strong Ballet background, which I consider to be Western dance, so thus they would have a more "American" or Western flavor to their dance.

Didn't Horacio start belly dancing in the US? I thought I read that somewhere...

okay, here's his bio from their website, Oriental Fantasy - Biography :

HORACIO CIFUENTES was born in Colombia and grew up there and in Spain, Poland and the US. He began to dance at the age 5. As a soloist he danced 8 years in San Francisco Ballet in more than 40 classical and modern ballets. He discovered oriental dance and quickly became very successful .

Beata & Horacio met and got married in San Francisco. As they joined their private and professional lifes they created the concept of the Oriental-Fantasy-Shows, a unique full evening theatre show. This concept of taking the oriental dance from the night club to a theatrical level with backdrops, especially commissioned music productions (made in Egypt), splendid luxurious costumes and tours all over the world is a novelty and the two play a trendsetting role for many dancers.
--

So it sounds like the both of them probably had at least a portion of their belly dance training in the US. Oh, actually, Horacio says so here:

Horacio tells about Magana for the Gilded Serpent

It makes a lot of sense to me, whose first belly dance teacher was German and whose style was very similar to the traditional American style, a lot of fantasy with some Reda stuff thrown in.

(ain't globalism grand? ,r:;)

I do wish people would stop equating "western" with "American". They are not exactly the same and the US is not the only developed country in the world, nor the only one to have an influence on countries other than itself.

there are MANY MANY differences within europe too. i've been taking classes and teaching, seeing shows and performing in them all over europe, and well, germany isnt belgium isnt france isnt italy isnt england isnt iceland isnt the netherlands...
i'm assuming it's not the same all over in the us either...

personally i dont think there is one "european" style, nor one "american" style and no specific differences at all between the two either. there are many many different styles allll over with many many specific characteristics...

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I do wish people would stop equating "western" with "American". They are not exactly the same and the US is not the only developed country in the world, nor the only one to have an influence on countries other than itself.

I just wish people would quit assuming that "American Belly Dancer" = overchoreographed and overwesternized. There are many of us here who do, if not strictly Egyptian, a much more Arab version of dance than, say, BDSS. We're not all Jillina, Aziza, Sadie, etc. There are many dancers here who get it, even if they don't do strict Egyptian style.

And there are many of us here who do a mean Egyptian style, too.