Thread: What is missing in belly dance

This dance is very much about music and interpretation of music , yet most are never even taught basic music theory . In most professional dance forms you will be lead by a choreographer as to what steps fit what music and will rarely choreograph your own dance . However in belly dance this is the most important part of the dance the ability to understand more than steps and counts taught by a choreographer and just hear the music and know music time signatures and understand how and why your dance moves relates to the music . So why don't we have someone teach Basic arabic music theory in workshops ?

What exactly do you mean about teaching this? Because I hear about this theory a lot in workshops and dance classes. Or are you referring to something else? Interpreting the music and feeling the music when you dance is what I hear almost all of the time.

Some instructors know more than others, so that affects what is offered.

I would have loved to attend this:
"Jalilah: Yes, for instance, I taught a class on how to interpret the music of Om Kalthoom using the song “Lesa Fakir” and the music professor, Michael Frishkopf, taught a music theory class using the same music. Opportunities such as these that allowed dancers to deepen their knowledge were not easily accessible to us when we first started." (from this article on Gilded Serpent)

Because none of us are trained Arab musicians.

It's hugely difficult to become an expert on a foreign music theory, particularly when your native style of music is so different to that which you later gravitate to. I think it takes YEARS to get to that kind of level in the music theory, whereas your dancing can be strong well before you've grasped every nuance of the musical theory.

Which is not to say you can be a great dancer without understanding the music! But you can have something of a rudimentary understanding of the music, be familiar with the classics, have an understanding of the rhythm structures... and not be in a position to teach "music theory" to students while you're teaching them to dance.

Also: this is a reaaaaally difficult dance form to learn when you're new. Can you imagine trying to learn to essentially BE a musician (without playing anything) while you're trying to get your head round those seemingly impossibly physics of the Egyptian Walk/Haggalah/3/4 down shimmy?! My god, we'd have no students left after the first day! ..l;,

As such, I think you should be getting a basic grounding in the music (genres, noteworthy "classics", folk styles, instrumentation, rhythms) and it's relation to your dancing from your dance teacher. But further music theory (maqamat, etc) really ends up coming down to your own study, and to seeking out musicians rather than dancers to learn from.

My current teacher does tell us also what the song is about that she is teaching choreography to so that we have an even better understanding of what we are dancing to. These are the times when my lack of knowledge about Arab/Turkish/Greek language bothers me.

Originally Posted by wigglewhiz

Because none of us are trained Arab musicians.

It's hugely difficult to become an expert on a foreign music theory, particularly when your native style of music is so different to that which you later gravitate to. I think it takes YEARS to get to that kind of level in the music theory, whereas your dancing can be strong well before you've grasped every nuance of the musical theory.

Which is not to say you can be a great dancer without understanding the music! But you can have something of a rudimentary understanding of the music, be familiar with the classics, have an understanding of the rhythm structures... and not be in a position to teach "music theory" to students while you're teaching them to dance.

Also: this is a reaaaaally difficult dance form to learn when you're new. Can you imagine trying to learn to essentially BE a musician (without playing anything) while you're trying to get your head round those seemingly impossibly physics of the Egyptian Walk/Haggalah/3/4 down shimmy?! My god, we'd have no students left after the first day! ..l;,

As such, I think you should be getting a basic grounding in the music (genres, noteworthy "classics", folk styles, instrumentation, rhythms) and it's relation to your dancing from your dance teacher. But further music theory (maqamat, etc) really ends up coming down to your own study, and to seeking out musicians rather than dancers to learn from.

First I am talking about dancers who want to call themselves Professionals , not beginners . And a 3/4 is what I am talking about and how to count music and understand music phrasing . How can you expect to be a dancer if you do not understand how to count the music you are dancing to. I think this why so many dancers like arabic pop basic 4/4 and sounds like American music very easy to dance to and stay on time with the beat .

...

i've tried this and its hard to get people to sign up. people think music theory sound booring and they'd rather learn how to shake their booties :/

that's why sohail kaspar and others have made their programs. for those of us who give a %^&* about those things.

sorry in a mood right now...dealing with insurance adjuster.
i do try to pepper my classes with information so to avoid shakiradancer syndrome

Originally Posted by kiyaana

Some instructors know more than others, so that affects what is offered.

I would have loved to attend this:
"Jalilah: Yes, for instance, I taught a class on how to interpret the music of Om Kalthoom using the song “Lesa Fakir” and the music professor, Michael Frishkopf, taught a music theory class using the same music. Opportunities such as these that allowed dancers to deepen their knowledge were not easily accessible to us when we first started." (from this article on Gilded Serpent)

This is great i would love to have a class like this . all i see is dancers looking for the newest moves out of egypt and trying to learn dance steps , yet most do not care to understand how the steps or moves relate to a particular part of the music or why.

Originally Posted by sabrinabellydancer

i've tried this and its hard to get people to sign up. people think music theory sound booring and they'd rather learn how to shake their booties :/

that's why sohail kaspar and others have made their programs. for those of us who give a %^&* about those things.

sorry in a mood right now...dealing with insurance adjuster.
i do try to pepper my classes with information so to avoid shakiradancer syndrome

are you talking about professional seminars or dance classes that do not find it interesting .

I took 3 days of workshops with Karim Nagi that were really great. Workshop titles included, (sorry for the ALL CAPS - that's how they were listed)

"SURVEY OF ARAB MUSIC FOR DANCE" (lecture)

"MAQAM FOR DANCERS" (workshop)

"MUSICALITY FOR DANCERS" (workshop)

"FROM THE VILLAGE TO THE STAGE ARAB MUSIC & DANCE, THEN & NOW" (lecture)

"SAGAT & ZILLS FINGER CYMBALS" (workshop)

"RHYTHM FOR DANCERS" (workshop)

You can read descriptions here - TURBO TABLA / Workshops with Karim Nagi / Rhythm & Music for Dancers / Percussion.

Looking at Karim's calendar, it seems he's here this week - Official Website of Simon Shaheen. I'm sure that retreat would be waaaaay beyond me, but I would love to be there just the same.

Originally Posted by Fotia

What exactly do you mean about teaching this? Because I hear about this theory a lot in workshops and dance classes. Or are you referring to something else? Interpreting the music and feeling the music when you dance is what I hear almost all of the time.

No that is not what i mean at all . That is very important also . What I am talking about is the ability to count music and understand music phrasing . To know what call and response is and so many other things that make up arabic music .

Originally Posted by MelanieLA

I have always worked with musicians to get this sort of training.

Well yes so have I , but my point is this is what i think all dancers should be learning as well as dance steps . As far as i know we have not had anything in texas like what i am asking about unless you are a drummer .

TURBO TABLA / Workshops with Karim Nagi / Rhythm & Music for Dancers / Percussion.

MAQAM FOR DANCERS: Maqam is the Arabic system of scales and melody creation. All songs, weather classical, pop or dance, are created in a Maqam, which dictates whether the song is happy, somber, uplifting, spiritual or sensual. Dancers will learn how to recognize, sing and move to maqams by learning famous song examples. Special attention will be given to Taksim, the art of instrumental solo improvisation. The dancer will practice interpreting the instrumental music into movement and personifying the mood of the music. This workshop is vital for dancers who wish to better interpret melody into movement.
this is what i am talking about.

MUSICALITY FOR DANCERS: Despite any mastery of technique and bodily dexterity, true dance expression requires musicality. The best dancers are those who emulate the music into their own movement. Karim will demystify Arab music for the dancer. Several recurring themes in Arab music will be identified (using recorded examples) and explained in emotive, non musical terms. The class will cover Taksim, Melodic Themes, Vocal vs Instrumental Songs, Rhythms & Rhythmic Changes, Melodic Modulation, Song Structure, Orchestration and Instrumentation. Karim will guide the students through several songs and lead them in dancing to each of these themes. This is a movement class that will help the dancer become the physical personification of the music.

I think it involves teaching our students to value the music as much as we value the steps, the costuming, etc.

On this past Durga Tour (May-June 2009), musician Tim Rayborn - an expert of Middle Eastern and Medieval Music, was on tour with us to both perform and teach. Many locations just weren't interested in a music workshop (learning about folkloric music, or music for dancers/dancing to live music), or the turn-out for them wasn't that great. But every location that did host those workshops had students raving about the experience and what they learned.

Especially with more and more fusion music out there, it's even more important now for ALL styles of bellydancers to know and understand traditional music - that's the key to it all!

But how many dancers (and I mean ALL dancers) spend far more time and money on costuming, make-up, and choreography than they do about music : taking the time to consider the music, to burn or mix a quality set, to be concerned about having a good sound system for events?

My husband offered extremely professional mixing/editing services in the Bay Area for dancers for years at an extremely reasonable price, as well as sound for gigs - and he just gave up offering it. Dancers just didn't appreciate it - they'd rather spend $1000 on a costume then $25-$75 for having quality sets for restaurants/performances. Yeap, there's a lot more editing equipment out there now, but I haven't noticed that much of a difference in how sets sound - still choppy, uneven cutting. Isn't presenting our music properly and professionally part of being a dancer?

Or dancers want musicians at their events, but don't want to pay them?

It comes down to respecting the music.

I do agree it is up to the teachers to make music important .
So many dancers ***** about how Belly dance is judged by the public and that they want to have it be respected as a serious dance , yet they miss the point about teaching how and what we teach will affect the way this dance is treated in the future .
Bad music mix or uneven cutting of music is like dancing without makeup . Just bad.
Respecting music ! a new slogan i will try and pass on .

I must say I've heard little if any 3/4 Arabic music, though I have heard some North African stuff that I think is 6/8. But if I had a reason for students to be listening to it, if I were teaching a dance to it for instance, well obviously I'd be teaching them how triple time goes.

Most westerners know what triple time is. It's like a waltz. Anyone with half-decent ears can hear it and feel it. Am Cab dancers would have had more use for it with rhumba. Oriental dancers learn rhythms, which are the first "new" part. Only those who keep going start thinking about the rest of the band, but most don't and go to fusion instead because it's easier, musically speaking.

Originally Posted by azahara

TURBO TABLA / Workshops with Karim Nagi / Rhythm & Music for Dancers / Percussion.

MAQAM FOR DANCERS: Maqam is the Arabic system of scales and melody creation. All songs, weather classical, pop or dance, are created in a Maqam, which dictates whether the song is happy, somber, uplifting, spiritual or sensual. Dancers will learn how to recognize, sing and move to maqams by learning famous song examples. Special attention will be given to Taksim, the art of instrumental solo improvisation. The dancer will practice interpreting the instrumental music into movement and personifying the mood of the music. This workshop is vital for dancers who wish to better interpret melody into movement.
this is what i am talking about.

MUSICALITY FOR DANCERS: Despite any mastery of technique and bodily dexterity, true dance expression requires musicality. The best dancers are those who emulate the music into their own movement. Karim will demystify Arab music for the dancer. Several recurring themes in Arab music will be identified (using recorded examples) and explained in emotive, non musical terms. The class will cover Taksim, Melodic Themes, Vocal vs Instrumental Songs, Rhythms & Rhythmic Changes, Melodic Modulation, Song Structure, Orchestration and Instrumentation. Karim will guide the students through several songs and lead them in dancing to each of these themes. This is a movement class that will help the dancer become the physical personification of the music.

You know, I took these workshops with him and it changed my life, srsly. My current teacher is all about the music and what to listen for and interpret it. Those kind of teachers are RARE!

I am completely revamping all my classes now to start from day one talking about what to listen for in the music. That completely eliminates that old question, "But how do I know what moves to do with what music?"

What is missing in belly dance is the dang Arabic MUSIC. We don't dance to it half the time; we don't study it; we don't like it! (the dirty secret) And then we can't understand why when we deconstruct our performances, they don't look authentic.

How can you seriously teach this dance if you don't understand at least a LITTLE about the music and and it's physically interpreted? That's what I still can't understand.

Originally Posted by azahara

First I am talking about dancers who want to call themselves Professionals , not beginners . And a 3/4 is what I am talking about and how to count music and understand music phrasing . How can you expect to be a dancer if you do not understand how to count the music you are dancing to. I think this why so many dancers like arabic pop basic 4/4 and sounds like American music very easy to dance to and stay on time with the beat .

Just throwing this out there for thought cause S. Salimpour told us this weekend that we should never stop counting.... I had another well respected professional dancer and teacher, who was all about being on the beat, tell us if you have to count the music to stay on beat, you were lost to her....as in you would never be able to dance. I have no idea if she thought we should be *able* to or not. Don't get me wrong, certainly not against teaching music theory, whatever helps!! But I'm not sure all dancers need to disect the music to dance it.

Meredith

Originally Posted by azahara

are you talking about professional seminars or dance classes that do not find it interesting .

professional seminars teaching music education for professional dancers. in the past have been oddly hard to fill ime. now, that's no excuse to stop trying. some of my students love to learn it, but i throw it in like pepper cause they are there primarily for movement.

this thread makes good points. understanding the music is key

You have two threads going today that can both be answered with a single reply. In most areas, the dance community does not have enough serious students to make serious study financially viable. Many teachers pay their bills with the "fun girls." Occasionally the "fun girls" become serious students--but more often than not, they study a little bit for a little while and then drift off to a new hobby. It doesn't matter whether you are talking about learning music theory, folklore and culture, or intensive movement technique. Few studios have the students to make that kind of academic commitment to the material. A lot of teachers would be thrilled just to have half a class of students who practiced at home.

Of course, as Kiyaana, Wigglewhiz, and others have pointed out, part of the problem is that teachers often do not have sufficient mastery of this material to apply it to their own performances, much less teach it to others. It's far easier and cheaper to hide behind labels than learn. "I do Classic American Cabaret style, which is just a mix of a bunch of stuff." Really? I thought it was a hybrid style developed in the 1960s-80s, defined by the teaching (and legacy, in some cases) of a significant set of individuals (e.g., Bobby, Bert), and identified by particular hallmarks such as the 5- and 7-part routines, finger cymbal playing, etc. I didn't realize it was just a mess of sloppy technique from multiple sub-styles, because you were too lazy to learn the difference between Egyptian and Turkish. Don't even get me started on "fusion"....

If you want to become truly proficient at any of the ethnic styles, it is an enormous commitment of time and money and effort--learning about the music, learning a foreign language, learning dance technique, even studying abroad. You don't do that waltzing into the YMCA once a week for a mixed-level class. Certainly everybody does not have to perform at that level. Most dancers don't need to be that good, and they have personal and financial constraints that would prevent them from doing so, even if they wanted to. Yet, the number of teachers at that level is embarrassingly small. We can't even agree on minimum standards for being able to consider yourself qualified to teach. I understand that this is fundamentally an art, and "good" art is subjective, but other creative disciplines (other forms of dance, painting, music, acting) all manage to impose some set of standards on the quality of their instruction so it isn't a crazy free for all. Why can't we? Or are we just so impulsive and shortsighted that we can't see the point of working for a greater good?

I am just reading Music in Egypt by Scott Marcus, I highly recommend it for those who want to learn more about music.

It would make life easier for me, because watching yall is like a quote from Eddie Murphy "are yall dancing to the words or the beat?"

Aazura, my heart is with you, but I agree that most dancers - even pros- don't really want to actively take special music classes. Just like most don't really love to zill. Their world of dance is fine knowing what they know and fulfilling. And we still have outstanding dancers in the world - b/c however they find the music, they "get" it. [And I wish I were one!!]

I have to give a shout out to Jim Boz who is someone who is stupendously well informed musically, and teaches it actively in a fun way. He did offer classes - around zilling primarily - and it was great. But as others have said - those classes had maybe 3 people, on a crowded day.

I would love to find a teacher who is versed in middle Eastern musical therory and North African, Indian! Know any? In Japan? LOL! I dont know ANY from the area I first started Belly Dance. (Upstate SC/Hampton Roads VA) Sure I grabbed an ounce or two of knowladge from the random workshop, thats why I am learning how to play the Dumbek :-D Im not sure if that is the same thing as I have never danced any other dance form before or played any other instrament besides the harp. What do you recomend we as uninformed, undereducated dancers do to wip away this stigmatic ignorance? Anyone in particular I can learn more because to tell you the truth I would LOVE to be more educated in what I claim to "teach" on occasion.
This is a fantastic topick! I wish there was a set format and a universally accepted teaching certification or even a Board of Bellydancers like a Plastic Surgeon, this way you can go to a class and at a glance know if you should run away. I am feed up going to a "Master Class of Egyptian Style BellyDance" and having a "Spirituality What I Believe is Belly Dance BS". LOL!

Originally Posted by sblanck

It would make life easier for me, because watching yall is like a quote from Eddie Murphy "are yall dancing to the words or the beat?"

Speaking as a dancer who very much enjoys live music, who works hard on learning about music, who has the utmost respect for good musicians and who very much treasures the friendship to many wonderful musicians, this comment rubs me the wrong way, to say the least. Let's just say - I am much more likely to work with musicians who show respect for dancers, including those dancers who are still learning and who have not had the good fortune of being taught about music. I had to spend a lot of hard work to become a dancer about whom musicians say "You can to her like to a musician." - it did not come easy to me, and I am grateful for those who did make discouraging comments about me on my way, and I do not appreciate disrespectful musicians. The words above do not come across as nice.

Originally Posted by sblanck

It would make life easier for me, because watching yall is like a quote from Eddie Murphy "are yall dancing to the words or the beat?"

Well sometimes we are dancing to the words. Or the oud or the nay or the violin or the qanoon. The drum is *not* the only instrument in ME music, which I assume is what you're talking about. I actually think there's a little bit *too* much focus on the drums at the expense of, you know, the whole song, in a lot of western BD training.

Some musical forms have *no drum whatsoever* and yet have a very strong beat, like tango.

Sorry if that sounded bitter! lol... I dont get to use big words at home as I never get to converse with adults.. ppfff

I am resonating with those who posited that for a beginner to learn music theory at the beginning can immediately turn them off. I remember embarking on a study of flamenco and going "gaaaaaahhhhh.....I just wanna do zapateados but I need to know this and this and this and this so that my footwork has meaning". Too daunting. And I just started appreciating what an actual maqam was after many years dancing to a live band. So intuitively I could dance and phrase within a maqam, along with the oud player but if someone tried to sit me down during my "Oooh, RAJA, what cool music!!" beginner phase and teach me maqams I would have ran away.

I think what Azahara is getting at is the basic ability to understand what you're dancing to, on the most surface level, at the least.

And, just for the record, makeup and costuming is the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. I didn't start paying attention to makeup, I mean REALLY pay attention to makeup, until after several years of performing. What I learned to do first was dance. And know what I was dancing to. What is 4/4. What is 9/8. What is 6/8. What is 2/4. How to play fingers cymbals with it and how do I dance to it...

I want to venture to guess, and this has been asserted in other threads, that such ready access to all things belly dance, may have diluted the information that was traditionally passed from teacher to student in person.

Ahmber, in addition to the book I mentioned above, there are many very useful resources to educate yourself about ME music. A while back, Hadia's DVD #3 (don't recall the excact name) was very influential for me, it introduced different rhythms and demonstrated dance movements that work well with them. I would definitely recommend that DVD, based on my own experience (and I had to nod in agreement at some of what you described ...).