Thread: Is plain ol' Belly Dance enough?

We've beaten this to death over the years I've been on Bhuz, but I just have to whine right now.

Isn't plain ol' BD enough? Is BD so boring that we have to constantly fuse it with unlike forms such as Flamenco? Hip Hop? Latin? Polynesian? Dance Craze of the Month?

Oy!

There is just so much fabuliciousness in this gorgeous dance form that I just can't fathom the need to stick something else -- just about anything else -- with it.

Thank you for bearing with me.

Deborah

I'm with you 110%. I'm in an area with a huge dance community, and still I crave actual belly dance, rather than a fusion extravaganza. It's so nice to just be able to watch actual "plain" belly dancing for a change.

Yes!!! What is happening to belly dance? I guess I am a purist and a dinosaur.

amen.

It's marketing, I guess. And it has nothing to do with the GP and everything to do with the fact that the primary market for BD is BDers. You can't keep selling DVDs that teach BD to BDers who already have them, so instead you bring out ones with Prop Of The Month or Fusion of the Week. "Now with glute shimmies!" Plus I guess people think they are getting several things for the price of one - belly dance AND hula AND poi AND a workout!

Yes, it is enough. The best thing we could do for ourselves is to believe in ourselves.

I have to say this conversation grabbed my attention because three of my current inspirations are Nanna in Oakland, and Maria and Sandra in the Bay area and what they all do in my mind is make "plain ol' Belly Dance" dynamic with amazing use of combining muscle control, artistic feel of the music and stage presence to make raks sharki , well... rock! Now, finding that combination is more challenging sometimes in my own work but it has inspired me to work towards that art in dance over other things I could get caught up in like props before getting the essence of the "basics". ( not that I still don't fight and make up with my veil and zills on a regular basis..)
I respect any artist however that strives to better themselves and to be truly proud of what they are presenting whether in fusion, tribal or traditional styles.

This thread is good timing for me ..... last weekend, I was the last dancer in the show, and the dancer just before me did classic floor work and Cab with no props. I did cane and drum solo. No props/no tricks. This was preceded by lots of veil poi, veil fans, isis wings ..... one troupe used all of these in the same number. I enjoyed everyone's performance and was feeling like I "underdanced" (? LOL). My boyfriend, who also enjoyed the whole show, had an interesting observation: He said, "I enjoyed everyone, but it was really nice when the show ended with you two (the last dancers) brought us "back to the basics," just pure BD ...... (I'm rarely happy with my performance, but in that moment, I felt gloriously happy!!!!) I love glitter and sparkle and "production pieces", but it's BD without props that I love most of all--both watching and dancing .....

Another "dinosaur" here!

Naiya, I would have felt the same way as John. And I agree with Zumarrad - a lot of the need for fusion is inspired by marketing. But I think it's more than that.

Because we non-middle easterners mostly don't understand the words of the songs we dance to and because we don't have a lifetime of cultural education in the culture of the dance's origins, we don't have as deep an experience or enjoyment of the dance as middle easterners do. It can leave one wanting "more" - so the way we get more feeling and more depth into our experience of the dance, we add things that are familiar to us, like jazz, hip hop, poi spinning, baton twirling ... oops, maybe not that... yet!

As Casbahdance said so well "There is just so much fabuliciousness in this gorgeous dance form that I just can't fathom the need to stick something else -- just about anything else -- with it."

Well, overall I believe that if you are dancing with props, you should be able to loose the prop and still be fabo!

I saw a show this weekend which was belly dance to anything except ME music and everyone had the chance to push the envelope. Which was cool, but many of the acts felt like dance theatre as opposed to belly dancing. Which was fine with in that setting, and the dialogue was pretty straight forward about this being something else. While I wasn't disappointed, per se, it did get me wondering about when it no longer was belly dance.

(The caveat here is that I do fusion. . .)

{{{HUGS}}}

I agree! I love Plain Ol' Bellydance.

I'm not sure if the Fusion Extravaganza phenomenon is unique to bellydance though. I was at a bluegrass show a few months back and they had cloggers/buck dancers as an opening act. They had a few normal performances then out of nowhere they started clogging to a rap song about a stripper. That is about as far from clogging as you could get! It was a little bizarre.

Also, at my dance studio there is a ballet class that is learning a dance to the song As I Went Down In The River To Pray from the O Brother Where Art Thou? soundtrack. How does that match with ballet? Once again, about as far from ballet as you can get!

Then again, I have yet so see anyone in a ballet class break out the poi yet!
Maybe because traditional bellydancing already has props involved ( canes, swords, zills, veil ) it comes naturally to fuse the props too?

Also, at my dance studio there is a ballet class that is learning a dance to the song As I Went Down In The River To Pray from the O Brother Where Art Thou? soundtrack. How does that match with ballet? Once again, about as far from ballet as you can get!

Ballet really is more about movement vocabulary and art theatre than belly dance is. It's not uncommon for people to dance in recognisably balletic ways to many different kinds of music.

Originally Posted by leylalanty

Another "dinosaur" here!

Naiya, I would have felt the same way as John. And I agree with Zumarrad - a lot of the need for fusion is inspired by marketing. But I think it's more than that.

Because we non-middle easterners mostly don't understand the words of the songs we dance to and because we don't have a lifetime of cultural education in the culture of the dance's origins, we don't have as deep an experience or enjoyment of the dance as middle easterners do.

Amen to that!

I enjoy watching performances with a lot of extra entertainment and props;
but train "old" bellydance and folklore myself.

The trends where I live has gone from triple veils,flamenco fusion and pharaonic fantasy to veil poi,double snakes and native american fusion(sic)
And I have been afraid to bore the audiences.

But as the GP is drawn to this dance form by the creative possibilities,
the "ethnic" crowds cheer on the dinosaur dancers:)

Because we non-middle easterners mostly don't understand the words of the songs we dance to and because we don't have a lifetime of cultural education in the culture of the dance's origins, we don't have as deep an experience or enjoyment of the dance as middle easterners do.

And simultaneously, we take it far too seriously as a consequence. Ergo we have to "evolve" it and make it "artistic" in ways that have nothing to do with its other facet, which is a pleasurable way of moving and expressing oneself in a particular social environment/entertaining others.

Originally Posted by casbahdance

We've beaten this to death over the years I've been on Bhuz, but I just have to whine right now.

Isn't plain ol' BD enough? Is BD so boring that we have to constantly fuse it with unlike forms such as Flamenco? Hip Hop? Latin? Polynesian? Dance Craze of the Month?

Oy!

There is just so much fabuliciousness in this gorgeous dance form that I just can't fathom the need to stick something else -- just about anything else -- with it.

Thank you for bearing with me.

Deborah

Another side of this may be to ask what is perhaps lacking in the good old fashioned belly dance.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

And simultaneously, we take it far too seriously as a consequence. Ergo we have to "evolve" it and make it "artistic" in ways that have nothing to do with its other facet, which is a pleasurable way of moving and expressing oneself in a particular social environment/entertaining others.

I wouldn't say it like that. It sounds like you're saying that fusion is a direct consequence of taking it too seriously, when I think what you meant is that the serious faction may drive some of the non-serious faction into the arms of fusion.

If anything, I think not enough people take this dance seriously, and the ones who don't take far too much pleasure in their ignorance. Much of fusion is not a reaction to others being sticklers for getting lyric translations or arguing about whether Dina engages her psoas during a particular move--it's laziness, pure and simple. Why bother to learn when you can just make stuff up? Why waste time doing something "properly" when you can just do whatever you feel like?

I'm not saying there is one "right" answer. Heaven knows, every single dancer in the Middle East has her/his own definition of "right." However, their collective understanding of the dance as natives to the culture should be what drives the conversation. We get to dominate the domains of 1970s AmCab and ATS and the like, but the ethnic stylizations are theirs, not ours. If you want to be a portrait painter, you do not get to demand that oil paints work like crayons because crayons are simpler to use. We, as outsiders to the culture, don't get to tell Egyptians what the word "sha'abi" means, and we don't get to tell Khaleeji women that they have to keep wearing their thobes because we like them. It is THEIR dance, and we need to respect that. As a consequence, learning to perform it properly as an ethnic stylization means we have to commit to studying and understanding multiple aspects of their culture(s) and lifestyle(s). We can't take a tiny bit here and a tiny bit there and tell the other 95% to go away because it does not amuse us.

I have nothing against fusion, but fusion is rarely the joining of two well-practiced art forms by a knowledgeable artist. It's Me! Me! ME! and MY ART!!! and it's--quite frankly--boring. Most fusion looks like the half-baked brainchild of an overactive ego and a whole lot of ignorance on two different subjects, and IMNSHO, it shows.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I wouldn't say it like that. It sounds like you're saying that fusion is a direct consequence of taking it too seriously, when I think what you meant is that the serious faction may drive some of the non-serious faction into the arms of fusion.

If anything, I think not enough people take this dance seriously, and the ones who don't take far too much pleasure in their ignorance. Much of fusion is not a reaction to others being sticklers for getting lyric translations or arguing about whether Dina engages her psoas during a particular move--it's laziness, pure and simple. Why bother to learn when you can just make stuff up? Why waste time doing something "properly" when you can just do whatever you feel like?

I'm not saying there is one "right" answer. Heaven knows, every single dancer in the Middle East has her/his own definition of "right." However, their collective understanding of the dance as natives to the culture should be what drives the conversation. We get to dominate the domains of 1970s AmCab and ATS and the like, but the ethnic stylizations are theirs, not ours. If you want to be a portrait painter, you do not get to demand that oil paints work like crayons because crayons are simpler to use. We, as outsiders to the culture, don't get to tell Egyptians what the word "sha'abi" means, and we don't get to tell Khaleeji women that they have to keep wearing their thobes because we like them. It is THEIR dance, and we need to respect that. As a consequence, learning to perform it properly as an ethnic stylization means we have to commit to studying and understanding multiple aspects of their culture(s) and lifestyle(s). We can't take a tiny bit here and a tiny bit there and tell the other 95% to go away because it does not amuse us.

I have nothing against fusion, but fusion is rarely the joining of two well-practiced art forms by a knowledgeable artist. It's Me! Me! ME! and MY ART!!! and it's--quite frankly--boring. Most fusion looks like the half-baked brainchild of an overactive ego and a whole lot of ignorance on two different subjects, and IMNSHO, it shows.

THIS

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I wouldn't say it like that. It sounds like you're saying that fusion is a direct consequence of taking it too seriously, when I think what you meant is that the serious faction may drive some of the non-serious faction into the arms of fusion.

If anything, I think not enough people take this dance seriously, and the ones who don't take far too much pleasure in their ignorance. Much of fusion is not a reaction to others being sticklers for getting lyric translations or arguing about whether Dina engages her psoas during a particular move--it's laziness, pure and simple. Why bother to learn when you can just make stuff up? Why waste time doing something "properly" when you can just do whatever you feel like?

I'm not saying there is one "right" answer. Heaven knows, every single dancer in the Middle East has her/his own definition of "right." However, their collective understanding of the dance as natives to the culture should be what drives the conversation. We get to dominate the domains of 1970s AmCab and ATS and the like, but the ethnic stylizations are theirs, not ours. If you want to be a portrait painter, you do not get to demand that oil paints work like crayons because crayons are simpler to use. We, as outsiders to the culture, don't get to tell Egyptians what the word "sha'abi" means, and we don't get to tell Khaleeji women that they have to keep wearing their thobes because we like them. It is THEIR dance, and we need to respect that. As a consequence, learning to perform it properly as an ethnic stylization means we have to commit to studying and understanding multiple aspects of their culture(s) and lifestyle(s). We can't take a tiny bit here and a tiny bit there and tell the other 95% to go away because it does not amuse us.

I have nothing against fusion, but fusion is rarely the joining of two well-practiced art forms by a knowledgeable artist. It's Me! Me! ME! and MY ART!!! and it's--quite frankly--boring. Most fusion looks like the half-baked brainchild of an overactive ego and a whole lot of ignorance on two different subjects, and IMNSHO, it shows.

This works both ways. A lot of damage is being done to good old fashioned belly dance by piss poor dancers passing themselves off a professional and teachers to boot. Fusion done well is a joy to behold. But a lot of folks jump on the fusion bandwagon coz they can get away with being bad and lazy with less likelihood of being rumbled....or so they think. When belly dance is done badly it's glaringly obvious and you can rarely hide it.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

This works both ways. A lot of damage is being done to good old fashioned belly dance by piss poor dancers passing themselves off a professional and teachers to boot. Fusion done well is a joy to behold. But a lot of folks jump on the fusion bandwagon coz they can get away with being bad and lazy with less likelihood of being rumbled....or so they think. When belly dance is done badly it's glaringly obvious and you can rarely hide it.

Oh, I don't know, I think poor fusion is worse than poor belly dance - the only thing worse for and audience to endure than bad belly dance is bad fusion, because it has absolutely no context. It's only because we have been conditioned (or bullied) to respect one another's "AHHHHT" that it doesn't get called out more often.

I can't cope with being told something has to be good because it is unique/different/no one else does it.
I like good belly dance.
I like god fusion
I want them labelled clearly.
But I have watched dancers with a high profile in both belly dance or their own particular "speciality" and been left non-plussed.
I watched bog-standard belly dance and been blown away.
I have watched something totally out of my comfort zone and it's been the dog's bo$$ocks.
Sloppy technique and botched fusion , picking up the latest fashion or prop with no knowledge or skill is a cr*ppy experience for an audience. Experimental and well done I don't have a problem with even if I am unadventurous as a performer myself.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

This works both ways. A lot of damage is being done to good old fashioned belly dance by piss poor dancers passing themselves off a professional and teachers to boot. Fusion done well is a joy to behold. But a lot of folks jump on the fusion bandwagon coz they can get away with being bad and lazy with less likelihood of being rumbled....or so they think. When belly dance is done badly it's glaringly obvious and you can rarely hide it.

I agree that inferior "professionals" in all stylizations contribute to the problem. I wonder how many students are out there who have been studying what they think is legitimate belly dance for years, and still haven't seen the "real thing," either because they are working with low-quality teachers or they are trying to teach themselves from poor video examples.

Laziness is definitely a problem in the more traditional styles, too; however, I'm going to disagree with the last statement. Bad belly dance is glaringly obvious to people who know better, but an awful lot of the world doesn't know better. I wouldn't expect most GP audiences to be able to judge the quality of a dancer beyond the criteria of "klutz."

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Yes, it is enough. The best thing we could do for ourselves is to believe in ourselves.

Awesome, Tex!

Seriously, I think this is the prevalent sentiment in the BD community. Have you noticed how everyone's starting to get tired of BDSS? And we haven't even enjoyed all that many fusion debates around here recently.

I'm already witnessing what appears to be a shift to more traditional Cabaret stylings. It'll be awhile before the Marketing Powers That Be put their finger on the pulse. But it's out there ..g.:

Plain old belly dance is more than enough for me!

I don't have anything against fusion or creativity - it works for some people and specific venues. However, from a cultural standpoint, I think it's very important that the general public has easy access to the roots of the dance or we risk confusion about the artform.

Fusing and "creative expression" can be fun, fresh, and an expression of self in many cases, but I think there comes a time when seeking that extra edge becomes overkill. We've seen it all... cancan belly dance, dancing to classic songs with stuffed snakes, dancing on stilts, etc. I mean, really... What more can be done to shock us at this point? I realize we all have our own preferences, but I'm less than amused these days.

Culture never gets old.

I danced at a show recently, and felt like I underdanced - no props, no wings, no fire, no dance fans or veil poi or tray balancing, like everyone else.

But I was so happy afterwards, I got the best compliment from a few people - they said it was great to see me, because I just danced!

It's good enough for me. In fact, the longer I dance, the more of a purist I become. Egyptian, Turkish, Tunisian, Gypsy, etc., I like it by itself. Also Tribal - I hate it when people fuse a whole lot of other stuff in it; really good tribal in itself is a wonderful thing.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Yes, it is enough. The best thing we could do for ourselves is to believe in ourselves.

I'm with Satin. I think we need that on a T-shirt.

We had a hafla with a goofy theme... everybody went all out to theme it up... one local dancer did not. She just came out in her bedlah and really DANCED. And because she was the one soloist who didn't try to make things complicated -- she got the biggest round of applause. People later called her performance "the palate cleanser" and suggested that I hold non-theme spots in future haflas!

I call that "pea soup." What exactly is that type of dancing anyway?

[QUOTE=leylalanty;516407]Another "dinosaur" here!

Naiya, I would have felt the same way as John. QUOTE]


Leyla, the dancer doing the floor work was our Latifa from Sausalito. And you know how fabulous her floor work is -- her whole piece was beautiful, old school and gorgeous.

Two more observations by John (who, being an Aquarian, is usually far more objective than I am, and able to see the "big picture"): I'm often surprised by his comments, because that's when I realize how much he pays attention and how much he has absorbed over the years -- he wasn't just "tagging along," LOL!

We went to see BDSS the first year. Enjoyed it. Very much. Went the second year. ???? A LOT more fusion/tribal pieces. Of the rest, much seemed like a repeat of the first year. John's observation: "There wasn't anything in the show that we don't see at Rakkasah ....." True. (Here was a big clue: The programs were from the previous year--same pics, same bios, with a little sheet inserted for the new numbers. And they are not cheap, you have to buy them. Off topic, sorry. But there was very little of the "plain old BD" that we dinosaurs love so much. I understand the need to fill an auditorium, and that dancing in that venue needs more of a theatrical presentation. But the dancers of the "golden age" handled this by creating backdrops, settings, background dancers. I would love to see a renaissance of this!

About tribal: We saw Carolena's original troupe dance in SF when they started. Outside. Before it was called ATS. Mesmerizing. Again, from John, who to this day loves them best among the tribal style: He loved their interaction, that they seemed not to "need" an audience. They danced with and for each other and were self-absorbed in the pure joy of the dance. Wouldn't that be the intent of the word "tribal"? I'm very confused when I see a solo "tribal" piece. ???? Isn't that a contradiction?

Having said all that, although "plain old BD" will always be my passion, I do enjoy seeing fusion pieces, many kinds of tribal style, etc. -- if it's done well, as noted in other posts above. It's just that--to me--it's "not BD", it's another dance form.