Thread: does tucking = old skool?

I was just watching a video of Mia, who is a fabulous dancer, but I notice that she was not tucking. I have notice a lot of great dancers that don't tuck. Plus I keep reading articles and hearing teachers say that the old rule of tucking is out. What do you think? is tucking old skool?


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qRicCbJqzA&feature=player_embedded#]YouTube - Mia Shauri 1st Runner Up @ Belly Dancer of the Year 2008 Finals[/ame]

tucked in ballet.never saw it again untill ATS.

My concept that has developed from 1.5 yrs of Alexander Technique study is that neutral pelvic position should not be forced by a rigid tucking. Rather, the pelvis falls into, or even relaxes into, neutral position when the alignment of the entire body is optimized, and when all muscles are working together and engaged the minimum amount needed for the movement or posture, and nothing is locked or clenched.

When the whole body is not so optimized, the dancer has to "tuck" in order to achieve the visual goal that the teacher expects to see, and the teacher may tell students to "tuck", not understanding the complexities of adjustments from head to toe that would be required to truly achieve the neutral pelvis without tucking.

The dancer in the video seems to not be working from a homebase of what I would consider the neutral position, but it is impossible to rule out that she just has unusual anatomy.

I was taught to tuck, and my teacher taught me to tuck before she'd even glanced at an ATS video or workshop, and she has no ballet background. So it is not a tribal thing or a ballet thing. Extreme tuck seems to be out now as it can exacerbate back injuries, but it was originally taught to minimise back injuries. Go figure. Pelvic droppers need to learn to lift, and I tink that's why she was so particular about it, as an ex gymnast formerly encouraged in the dropped pelvis-arched back poses.

I've been wondering about this since seeing that Suha Deeb clip. I teach and was taught a neutral pelvis but it does seem that more old school dancers use a tucked pelvis. I actually think it makes moves look more finished so i've been playing with that more.

oh i'm thinking you meant tuck as in contract instead of arched pelvis.

Originally Posted by SamarDahab

oh i'm thinking you meant tuck as in contract instead of arched pelvis.

your right, thats what I mean

Well, I think of the extreme tuck with squatty bent knees and forward-pelvis as being 'old skool' for sure. Old instructional videos from the 80s had me standing like a cross betwen Groucho Marx and Steve Urkel!

We've definitely lifted up through the legs more and come to a more relaxed and neutral pelvis.

There have always been some dancers who performed with a fully released pelvis. I know that dancing that way would cause lower back pain for me, personally (though I do release my pelvis occasionally when my back is to the audience, so they can have a 3D picture to look at - LOL)

I am learning through teaching what a wide range of pelvic positions people seem to come in. The ones who have trouble tucking, though, also tend to have a lot of difficulty performing the movements at all, or performing them without pain. So I'll continue to believe that the neutral pelvis is the best way to teach.

I also think the word 'tuck' isn't overly helpful. In my mind is suggests a more extreme movement than a slight one.

Originally Posted by straightleftknee

I also think the word 'tuck' isn't overly helpful. In my mind is suggests a more extreme movement than a slight one.

I've always found that tucking mostly blocks the pelvis in Egyptian style dance at least. It does mine, anyway. There's much more benefit to be had by releasing the pelvis and lifting the chest to aid in this. Tucking can produce a Quasimodo effect that most unattractive. Having said this, an effect and correctly done tuck looks great. The tribal style utilises this wonderfully.

For me, personally, neutral pelvis requires a slight 'tuck', as in I have to consciously think of elongating my back and lifting the front because I tend to sway my back otherwise, which gave me back trouble in the past. This slight 'tuck', combined with lifting the upper body (front AND back) while still keeping the ribcage 'contained' gives me the most freedom in my hip movement and a more 'grounded' look without loosing upper body lift, and thus helped my dancing enormously..

Originally Posted by Khalida

For me, personally, neutral pelvis requires a slight 'tuck', as in I have to consciously think of elongating my back and lifting the front because I tend to sway my back otherwise, which gave me back trouble in the past. This slight 'tuck', combined with lifting the upper body (front AND back) while still keeping the ribcage 'contained' gives me the most freedom in my hip movement and a more 'grounded' look without loosing upper body lift, and thus helped my dancing enormously..

This is also my understanding of proper posture for dance. I tend to have a bit of a sway, so I have to be really conscious of where my tailbone is. I would love to work with an Alexander technique practitioner, but having a tough time finding one in my area.

Originally Posted by kharis_UK

I've always found that tucking mostly blocks the pelvis in Egyptian style dance at least. It does mine, anyway. There's much more benefit to be had by releasing the pelvis and lifting the chest to aid in this. Tucking can produce a Quasimodo effect that most unattractive. Having said this, an effect and correctly done tuck looks great. The tribal style utilises this wonderfully.

I hear all sorts of words used to describe the 'tuck', elongate the lower back, slight pull from the navel and so on.......thinking about it I don't remember any Egyptian born teacher talk about tucking, occasionally I've heard them remind people to keep their chest lifted. Maybe it's treated as a given? Dunno

Do people think the loss of 'tuck' has come about through the costume/music changes? I mean keeping a more bent leg/truck is great for ATS but not so attractive for the lyrca split skirts we have now.

Originally Posted by Jenn

This is also my understanding of proper posture for dance. I tend to have a bit of a sway, so I have to be really conscious of where my tailbone is. I would love to work with an Alexander technique practitioner, but having a tough time finding one in my area.

What is Alexander Technique?

Do people think the loss of 'tuck' has come about through the costume/music changes? I mean keeping a more bent leg/truck is great for ATS but not so attractive for the lyrca split skirts we have now.

I think the loss of *squat* has, but I think the loss of extreme tuck has come about through greater involvement with the sports/body industry and a recognition that overtucking is bad for you.

I can tuck perfectly well without squatting, so I don't see them as related.

ETA Alexander technique is a method of creating optimal body alignment. It's not related to BD specifically but to posture in general. My first tango teacher was an Alexander practitioner in her day job, so we got little bits of it.

Good posture can make or a break a dance. I mean, a dance with poor posture is just not going to look wonderful. I always tell people "a slight tuck," and I steal Aziza's imagery: "You have a grand piano sitting on your pelvis. If you tilt your pelvis forward or backward, your piano will slide off and crash into the floor. Keep your piano level."

I also use her "eyes in the chest" to remind people to keep their "eyes"open, and eggs under their armpits to keep their arms softly curved away from the body.

Amel says the "sunshine" in your chest - let your sun shine! I don't remember her talking about the pelvis, though. She does talk about softening the knees and imagining that you are dancing in the sand, to get the feet working against the floor idea.

Quite frankly, I think 'over tucking' came out of folks over compensating for the opposite problem- a lot of folks hear 'tuck' and automatically end up in an over-tucked position, and if you haven't taken the time to brush up on exercise science, you might never know the difference (until your knees start killing you!)

When I was first learning, we were definitely taught to over tuck because we didn't know any better. Now, we have traveling workshop instructors who do know & preach neutral alignment, we have websites and blogs etc. on basic fitness and greater access to books & other educational material, so it is easier to see different viewpoints & research them for ourselves.

A lot of folks are a bit sway backed in their day to day stance, & those folks will need to 'tuck' a little more- but I find saying neutral keeps them from the dreaded over-tucked position. Another factor is simply that the size of one's rear can affect how 'tuck' looks- I have no hips, not much of a bum either- you can really tell if I'm 'tucked' or not- my dear friend looks like she's sticking her bum out when she's in neutral, & there's no way you could ever get her to tuck enough to look like her bum isn't sticking out. We are differently endowed ..g.:

I was originally taught to 'tuck' and pretty much squat (and there are people who have to squat in order to tuck).

I now teach my students *how* to tuck, and release, and how to find neutral halfway in between. I like to describe it as 'dropping your tailbone slightly toward your heels' which is how I experience it.

Originally Posted by Lara L

Another factor is simply that the size of one's rear can affect how 'tuck' looks- I have no hips, not much of a bum either- you can really tell if I'm 'tucked' or not- my dear friend looks like she's sticking her bum out when she's in neutral, & there's no way you could ever get her to tuck enough to look like her bum isn't sticking out. We are differently endowed ..g.:

Yes, I have a student now who I kept correcting about tucking until I realized that she was in neutral. She has a big chest, small waist and big butt and it looks like she's sticking it out no matter what.

That would be me and has been the cause of much grief over the years. You would not believe how many teachers apparently can't tell the difference between a swayback and a big behind!

Originally Posted by Zana

That would be me and has been the cause of much grief over the years. You would not believe how many teachers apparently can't tell the difference between a swayback and a big behind!

Guilty as charged. I finally looked at her back to be able to tell. From the front or side it's almost impossible to tell especially if she has a large chest and/or stomach and is not wearing something tight. But I've learned to not just assume they aren't doing it right.

We all have different padding both front and rear. ..g.: I look at the spine and the alignment of the hips.
In today's society, where 80% of adults experience back problems at some point in their lives, we DO see a high % of people with an unhealthy "sway back", or arch in the lower back, laxity in the core muscles and often tightness in the hip flexors and hamstrings.
This arch is also sometimes encouraged by society- making the butt appear higher/rounder, wearing high heels etc all contribute. Our every day lives (too much time in front of the computer for many) also contribute to muscle imbalances in this puzzle.
I teach "lengthening" in the lower back to those who have the above mentioned challenges- I also teach core strengtheners, back, hip and hamstring stretches and body awareness as I want each of my students to be able to find and feel what is right for her.
I USED to have a huge sway back while dancing and in every day life. To be honest, through over tucking in class (and over bending the knees to allow it) and through Pilates- I am now much straighter in the spine with my pelvis in neutral (and knees soft, not over-bent). It wasn't taught to me as "this is how you must perform", but "this is how you stretch and strengthen and re-train your body" in order to neither arch nor over-tuck. It wasn't the "leaning back" posture however. It was upright. Through this postural practice and change I measure 1/2 an inch taller at the doctors and I never experience back pain after dancing (where-as I used to).
Some people have naturally straight spines with their pelvis is in neutral, some people have a little curve. I see it as important for a teacher to understand genetic diversity, while helping the student learn to take care of his/her body properly.

wearing high heels etc

Interesting, I get a small tuck when wearing them to compensate for the extra forward momentum.

I teach a tilt up from the pubis rather than tuck in. I am also a very straight legged teacher, as the squat is very hard on my knees and hips and they are decaying fast enough by themselves, thank you very much.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I now teach my students *how* to tuck, and release, and how to find neutral halfway in between. I like to describe it as 'dropping your tailbone slightly toward your heels' which is how I experience it.

I do the same. I say, "there's a rope attached to your tailbone, and it's gently being pulled down towards the floor." Later on in the session, I teach the "tuck" (I call it a tilt) as part of an ommi.

I agree with Khalida, but the word "tuck", to me sounds like an verbal crutch to explain basic posture to beginners, because it's unusual for the everyday body-posture. When you try to take the position from zero training you might totally fall out of alignment in your effort of tucking the pelvis and at the same time lifting the ribcage and bringing the shoulders down and back, ending up in a less than graceful and very stiff pose.
Whoever is trained and finds the right posture naturally with time, wouldn't "tuck" but rather bring the pelvis slightly to the front by a little to stronger contraction of the lower abs + pelvic floor.

Can I just say
This is my backside

And I'm slightly tucked in that picture.
If one more teacher tells me to tuck it under I'll scream.

Additionally I've found that teachers who stress alignment over "tuck" tend to do better in teaching that the core needs to be engaged. Often times one hears the word tuck, and over does it which is also a way of causing injury.

Amel says the "sunshine" in your chest - let your sun shine! I don't remember her talking about the pelvis, though. She does talk about softening the knees and imagining that you are dancing in the sand, to get the feet working against the floor idea.

I forgot about that! She says "half moon" for the belly, full moon for the butt! She doesn't really talk about the pelvis, no, but talking about the "half moon" would get us to "engage" there. She is definitely more of a neutral pelvis person herself.

Originally Posted by Nouria

but the word "tuck", to me sounds like an verbal crutch to explain basic posture to beginners

I totally agree Nouria! In class I tend to use Aziza's 'piano' visualisation to explain basic posture often, but still for different students it takes a different amount of realigning and different explanations to make it 'click' it seems.. In a way I am lucky that German is not my first language, because trying to explain posture without knowing 'shortcut words' forces me to get very wordy about it in class ..l;,
ETA: I like Ranya Renées posture explanation on her Baladi DVD a LOT. Made some things click for me, too.

Hi Khalida, yes when I watched Ranya Renée I nodded very much because I had made this experience already . I'm studying with Yaminah since a year and the first thing she did was to correct me on posture and what she asked for was for me to contract the lower abs and the pelvic floor and train this in big hipcircles, especially when pulling back...it was really tough but the whole posture thing so clicked with me then. My whole back straightened all by itself, the lats started working as a necessary counterbalance because these two things are so connected and I "got" the whole idea then, but yet when she comes scrutinizing my use of lower abs and pelvic floor she always goes: MORE, please.

Originally Posted by _Tanya_

Can I just say
This is my backside

And I'm slightly tucked in that picture.
If one more teacher tells me to tuck it under I'll scream.

Additionally I've found that teachers who stress alignment over "tuck" tend to do better in teaching that the core needs to be engaged. Often times one hears the word tuck, and over does it which is also a way of causing injury.

First of all - beautiful photo!

Secondly, I too struggle with the tuck vs. bootay issue. No one ever told me to "stand up straight!" as a child, and as a result I have a bit of the lumbar lordosis goin' on. Add that to the big booty, and my posture was downright awful when I started dancing.

I've ridden on both sides of the fence - tuck harder, tuck less, squeeze, lift, contract, relax, blah blah blah. I've adopted posture taught by Moria of the BDSS. She said a strong lift is the best medicine for "bad" posture* (I'll explain that in a bit). Lifting through the chest kind of "suspends" the rest of the torso below it, which keeps me from crunching up my lower back. Then I usually adjust a little bit from below with a light tuck (sometimes) and soft knees (always), and voila - nice posture. I am rather fond of using my lowest abdominal muscles for locks etc, and getting a little carried away with the tucking prevents me from being able to do so. I've largely discarded the teachings of my cabaret instructors in favor of a softer lower body that can pop, lock, and shimmy underneath a strong upper body.

* I had a workshop with Mardi Love at TF and she told us that she doesn't really ascribe to the tucked school of posture. But to look at her, you don't see untucked, or bad posture. She's a beautiful dancer.

So I don't know if tucked/untucked can really be classified as good/bad or right/wrong any more, not that I think anyone here has implied as much. But I think that posture, like style, is becoming kind of an individualized thing, where we determine how to hold ourselves to our best advantage, tweaking our own carriage individually here and there to highlight our assets (no pun intended), and downplay our perceived flaws.

My two cents. Or two thousand. I'm verbose and sipping a Pimms cup, and I could probably yap forever on this topic.