Thread: That word-"Gypsy"

Why do dancers insist on using the word "gypsy" even though we know it's a racial slur. Can we please do away with this?

um, because all the gypsies I know describe themselves as gypsies and not Rom.

Some people want to the called rom some want to be called gypsy.

Originally Posted by straightleftknee

um, because all the gypsies I know describe themselves as gypsies and not Rom.

Some people want to the called rom some want to be called gypsy.

Exactly here in the UK and in Europe..gypsies will introduce themselves as ...guess what...gypsies.

I will find the link but the ruling body of our gypsy community (who are not all Rom) is called The Gypsy Council.
The Gypsy Council

Famous Gypsies

This is an interesting website that celebrates the large number of talented people in our and other countries who can trace their heritage to that of the gypsy communty.

I hear you guys but if you're not a Gypsy and some don't like it, I don't think you should say it. There are things I can call myself as a Black person that you can't. Now if you're talking to your friend and they want you to call them that, then fine but to name your dance company with that name or to use it on your marketing material seems really rude and ignorant to me.

I taught gypsy children and I have a friend who is of gypsy blood. I have met many British gypsies and that's how they they describe themselves wether they be tinkers or Rom. There are words like (excuse me) "gyppo" which are held to be unpleasant but when you sit chatting to a guy in Malaga airport and he shakes hands and says "Hi, I'm Jon Smith and I'm a gypsy horse trader from Wales" and another time a guy says "I 'm a gypsy and I'm an archeologist unearthing Roman mosaics in the South of England" whatever else am I suposed to call them?
When Bob Hoskins, Sir Henry Wood and Sir Roger Moore and my favourite singer David Essex are themselves gypsies..ooo er why is it an insult? The US experience must be different. If your gypsy community wants to be called something else, fair enough but ours seems quite happy with the name.

This is not to say that many gypsies are not still treated badly and discrimated against by some over here..of course they are..they are sometmes , as they have always been considered to be living on the edges of society. The intolerant in our society will always find someone to complain about.

Originally Posted by SamarDahab

I hear you guys but if you're not a Gypsy and some don't like it, I don't think you should say it. There are things I can call myself as a Black person that you can't. Now if you're talking to your friend and they want you to call them that, then fine but to name your dance company with that name or to use it on your marketing material seems really rude and ignorant to me.

Like the old saying goes, Two wrongs don't make a right."
There are Roma who are unaware of their history. There are ones who know, and simply don't care. There are ones who use the "Gypsy" term because it's a promotional term. Others like the "transgressional" and even "romantic" feeling the term brings up. Some mix reasons.

But all that doesn't mitigate my responsibility, as an educated member of a civilization, to respect the other cultures in my civilization. And the simple fact is that it's like the terms "Negro" or "Colored People" -- there's still a United Negro College Fund, a Nat'l Assoc. for the Advancement of Colored People -- but the vast majority of Americans know better that to call the people who are the focus of those groups by those terms in the Modern Age, right?
So how does one justify these things when the term is "Gypsy", and people like Morocco have explicitly said that it's a negative, stereotyping term? If they call themselves such, understand -- there were plenty of people in the African-American community who called, and responded, to those above terms for decades past their dismissal in society. There's a similar debate, I understand, about "American Indian/Native Americans/First Americans" in those cultures, with many still responding to, and calling themselves "American Indians". That does not make the terms right to use by people who purport to respect the cultures!

Those changes happened not by fiat, but via a slow process of people trying to find their feet after centuries of oppression. Trying to find a term that lacked the negative connotations, and then convince the mainstream culture to use them. It's not easy work at the best of times, and Roma are in a pretty bad situation to utilize the levers of power other groups have used to change this and other aspects of their living situations.
So yes, many people in my primary ethnic group worked hard to gain that symbol of respect. In return, I advocate the use of other groups' preferred terms, because that's one of many ways to show respect. It's the simple-yet-deep rule of "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you".

Originally Posted by straightleftknee

Some people want to the called rom some want to be called gypsy.

Well here it is. Not all of them want to be called that right? I say call people what they want to be called. If everyone you've ever met asks to be called that then by all means go ahead.

But if you know some don't want to be called that, why would we continue to call some of the dances we do Gypsy dances?

I don't know if it's because I'm American or not. I don't know alot of Rom people, I've only probably ever met 10 in my lifetime. But we are very politically correct here so we really try to be careful about what to call people. But as a part of a minority group that's been called many things, I feel extra sensitive to it.

Hawke praises Madonna for Gypsy support in Romania - Yahoo! News

As you know we are so backward over here in the Old World.
I was brought up in a world where the gypsy was a frequent visitor to your doorstep, a neighbour in a nearby field, an intinerant worker,trader who lived a different life. Some of my nation villified them,some envied them, none ever, in my experience used the word as an insult.
I think our world just happens to be different,Samar and as long as my fellow Brit gypsy families and the other European nations I have met are happy with the term, we'll carry on using it.
Few of us have a misguided romanaticised image of gypsy life ..it's tough traditional way of life but it's a choice that many keep to over here.
Having spent a week in an old fashioned gypsy caravan..a week was enough for me. Having been in the glorious caravan of a traveller showman complete with top quality crystal glassware and china, I'd go with that.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

As you know we are so backward over here in the Old World.

And I will apologize for the implication that you are uncivilized. In retrospect, I can see what I was trying to say -- that people who understand other cultures respect their terms -- came out as such, and that was wrong to imply.

Part of the reason I keep trying to have these conversations isn't to throw feces at other people. It's to try to underline that, much like the term "belly dance", there's a lot of implications below the surface on these words and actions. It's rarely a simple "do this, and all will be well"; respecting other cultures is a hard process, with a lot of ground for failure -- as I have just done.

Asim and Samar when my friend Sandra tells me to stop refering to her granny as a Gypsy and call her a Rom instead I will. When the Gypsy Council of Britain clls itself something else I will desist and when Gypsy Lee (who really is a gypsy) and reads her crystal ball on Blackpool promenade,making a living out of being a gypsy wants to say I am Rom I will defer..till then....

...

I think that more offensive than the term gypsy is the perpetuation of stereotypes in relation to the term gypsy- call your skirt/tambourine/fantasy dances & fortune teller halloween costumes something else, unless you are actually drawing from culturally appropriate sources.

I think the term gypsy is a lot like the term bellydance- some people accept & promote it, others see it as derogatory or prefer a different term- but if I tell someone in the GP that I perform Raqs Sharqi or Oriental Tansi or something of the like, I get blank stares- so saying belly dance & then qualifying what I do I think educates & honors the cultural roots- same with gypsy- when I say Rom, Roma, Romani (or Dom, or whatever) I get blank stares- so I start with 'also known as' or 'sometimes called' or the like.

Asim's Native American analogy is also apt- If I know it, I use the specific tribe/nation name, or use native american or Alaska Native as I was taught, but certain friends laugh at me & use (& tell me to use) the term Indian. In Alaska, Native (capital N) is the accepted term, but in other areas may carry other meaning. You have to consider your audience & just do your best- if it is well intended & well informed, people are generally forgiving of honest mistakes.

in our family, we are Moors...never gypsy.

Around here, the Turkish Rom style of skirt dancing is invariably called "gypsy". So although I try not to use the terminology with my students (it doesn't come up much since I don't do that style), there's no way they're not going absorb through osmosis that it's what that style should be called. They hear it in the intros at shows and haflas, and most skirt workshops and classes are billed as "gypsy style" or "gypsy skirt".

If I find myself talking about the style, I'll usually say, "I personally refer to that style as Turkish Rom or just plain skirt dancing, because many people feel that the word gypsy is a derogatory term." This way I can at least let them know that there should at least be a sensitivity involved in using the word.

Galatea, I think there is a misunderstanding, and it may be good to point that out - big skirt dancing is not done by the Turkish Roma, it is an artistic invention in the US, possibly in part inspired by the Romani dances from Russia, where somewhat Flamenco-like music, dancing with tambourines and lots of skirt work are done.

Originally Posted by Lara L

I think that more offensive than the term gypsy is the perpetuation of stereotypes in relation to the term gypsy- call your skirt/tambourine/fantasy dances & fortune teller halloween costumes something else, unless you are actually drawing from culturally appropriate sources.

Exactly! This bothers me much more than calling people gypsies.

By the way, here in Switzerland most of them are not Rom but Jenische (Yeniche). And they often are also called "Fahrende" - loosly translated travellers.

MEISSOUN

At the least, whatever term we use and justify using, can we capitalize 'Gypsy'? It is a proper noun representing an ethnic group (or groups), and should be treated as such in written language.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

As you know we are so backward over here in the Old World.

I wasn't saying that you were backward. Someone pointed out that maybe it was different in the US so I was explaining my opinion. Here we have so many issues with being politically correct and it seems that in Europe it's not as big a deal. I haven't spent that much time in Europe but it seems that you all are more open to talking about difficult things than in the States. I hope I didn't come off as saying you were backward.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

Asim and Samar when my friend Sandra tells me to stop refering to her granny as a Gypsy and call her a Rom instead I will. When the Gypsy Council of Britain clls itself something else I will desist and when Gypsy Lee (who really is a gypsy) and reads her crystal ball on Blackpool promenade,making a living out of being a gypsy wants to say I am Rom I will defer..till then....

I have no problem with this. If your friend wants to be called that then fine. I get that. For instance, I like being called Black instead of African American but some in my community don't like to be called Black. So if you did something drawing from my culture, you probably shouldn't use the word Black right? You could say well my friend Samar Dahab doesn't mind the phrase but I'm not everyone so I'm not the authority.

I'm saying that we probably shouldn't call our dance companies or dances that if it is in fact offensive to some in their community.

Originally Posted by laura 2

Around here, the Turkish Rom style of skirt dancing is invariably called "gypsy". So although I try not to use the terminology with my students (it doesn't come up much since I don't do that style), there's no way they're not going absorb through osmosis that it's what that style should be called. They hear it in the intros at shows and haflas, and most skirt workshops and classes are billed as "gypsy style" or "gypsy skirt".

If I find myself talking about the style, I'll usually say, "I personally refer to that style as Turkish Rom or just plain skirt dancing, because many people feel that the word gypsy is a derogatory term." This way I can at least let them know that there should at least be a sensitivity involved in using the word.

That's what I mean. I explain it the same way to my students since I know they will hear it eventually.

Originally Posted by steffib

Galatea, I think there is a misunderstanding, and it may be good to point that out - big skirt dancing is not done by the Turkish Roma, it is an artistic invention in the US, possibly in part inspired by the Romani dances from Russia, where somewhat Flamenco-like music, dancing with tambourines and lots of skirt work are done.

Exactly

Originally Posted by steffib

Galatea, I think there is a misunderstanding, and it may be good to point that out - big skirt dancing is not done by the Turkish Roma, it is an artistic invention in the US, possibly in part inspired by the Romani dances from Russia, where somewhat Flamenco-like music, dancing with tambourines and lots of skirt work are done.

Thank you for pointing this out. Since I don't know much at all about the style, I've been going by what I've heard in performance intros, and seen from dancers who have self-described their style as Turkish Rom. I will make sure in the future I just refer to it as skirt dancing, as that seems fairly generic.

But if you know some don't want to be called that, why would we continue to call some of the dances we do Gypsy dances?

Because I want to be free like Stevie Nicks to skip around with a tambourine and big earrings goddammit! Why must you rain on my fantasy parade?

The issue is not whether or not people who are Gypsy/Rom call themselves Gypsy, or Rom, or tinker or pikey or traveller or anything else. They can call themselves what they like.

The issue is the use of the term to mean "wild full-skirted skipping women who are so free and exotic and might have speshul occultist powers!!!!", which we see all.the.freaking.time in belly dance, still.

There's a tricky area wherein you have an actual tribal style that is called Gypsy Caravan, even though it has nothing whatsoever to do with Gypsies or caravans - but it's been around for ages and it has been codified as Gypsy Caravan Style.

But I would really like to see troupes decide NOT to use the word "Gypsy" in their names. Unless they are actually Gypsies.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Because I want to be free like Stevie Nicks to skip around with a tambourine and big earrings goddammit! Why must you rain on my fantasy parade?

..l;, Zum you are so funny. I get that.

Last year I went to Rocky's Winter Week Long and a dancer from the UK taught such a dance. She explained ahead of time that it was a fantasy hollywood kind of concoction and had nothing to do with Romany people or any particular country. But she did use the word and explained herself.

So yes if you want to skip around with a tambourine big earrings and a full skirt I guess you can't call it anything else. And Gypsy Caravan is old so I get that too but lets not start any new companies and call it that.

I believe that Middle Eastern dance does not belong to us, it's from other people's cultures and lands and I think we should be extra careful about what we call it and how we present it. If I were middle Eastern I'd feel freeer to take liberties but I'm not. That doesn't mean that we should do no fusion but I think we should be clear about what types of dance we're fusing.

Originally Posted by SamarDahab

I'm saying that we probably shouldn't call our dance companies or dances that if it is in fact offensive to some in their community.

I can see your point.

Quite honestly, if a dance troupe doesn't have any people from this ethnic group, they shouldn't be calling themselves by that name anyway. Just how many members of Ultra Gypsy or Gypsy Caravan (to name a couple of high-profile troupes) actually are Roma or Sinti or Nawari? And if they're not, why are they appropriating the name?

And if a bunch of dancers are doing a bunch of skirt-swishing or smacking tambourines on their butts, why call that a "Gypsy" dance? Why don't they simply call it a "skirt dance" or a "tambourine dance"? Why do dancers doing such performances feel the need to attach it to an ethnic group?

And let's not forget that the Roma are not the only ethnic group with whom the term "Gypsy" is attached. There are also the Sinti, Nawari, Asteguins, and others, and they all have different dance traditions. Turkish Rom looks very different from the dance style of the Banat Maazin in Egypt, for example, and that in turn is very different from flamenco in Spain. So the generic term "Gypsy dance" is pretty misleading and meaningless even if you didn't have the problem of the word being a racial slur in many people's minds.

I think it is definitely a derogatory term in the US. I have also read (several places) that at least write it with a capital G : Gypsy.

I know in Hungary, the politically correct term is Roma, although some organizations still use the term Gypsy. Over there people use the word Gypsy mostly in every days speech, but only because that has been in use for so long, sometimes Roma is used. Either way the persons attitude comes through the way they say it, not what they say.

That being said, I am always the fan of trying not to offend someone, so I use Roma as much as I can. If it needs explanations, I'd add Gypsy style, or Gypsy, kind of the same as someone wanting to use the term Oriental dance, but since most people would think Asian, she would need to add: well, it's belly dancing.

SamarDahab: I agree with you, I am also very annoyed when dance groups have names such as Gypsy something, and besides the incorrect name, their dancing often reveals that they have not researched the origins, history and culture of the Roma, they don't understand that they differ regionally, (is a Flamenco dancer the same as a Turkish Roma? no, but they're from the same background, from a loooong time ago), and they think long skirt, shawls, black skirts with colorful pieces, flowers in hair and fans equal "Gypsy" dance.

Also I totally understand that some ethnic groups may refer to themselves in certain terms, even some derogatory ones, but those express more than the word, and other people, not part of the group should not use it.
Also, I can make blond jokes, because I am blond, but I can get offended if someone else does it // who is not blond :)

Here's what I do, in reference to real people. I use the politically correct term when not talking to people of any given group (African American, Native American, Rom) but if I am talking to a person of that group who signals that it is OK to use a less formal term around him/her, then I will use that term, always bearing in mind that some terms are reserved for use within the group and are never OK for someone outside it to use, but then I probably wouldn't hear these anyway.

The Nativ American studies guy in my university uses "Indian" because although he is not one, he is an adoptive member of a particular nation (I forget which) and is in constant communication with the people I refer to as Native Americans, and he tells me everyone he knows call themselves Indians, so he does too.

Regarding GYpsy, the problem is that it has gone way beyond refering to a particular ethnic group and has accrued all these other meanings, some of which are complete fantasy, but many of which are dug into our language so hard it will take a lot more than a committment to politeness to get out. We don't have any other word that expresses the same range of meanings and archetypes. If only we could separate the term Gypsy from the ethnic group and use it ONLY for those archetypal meanings that we seem to need ...

I don't really see any way to do it other than agreeing that we will remove that term from meaning anything to do with Rom and using Rom when we mean Rom. But then what about all the Rom who want to call themselves gypsies?

As a culture we need these artchetypes of freedom etc., which is why there are so many fantasy gypsy things going on in our rather self-indulgent community. But yeah, it would be nice if so many of us didn't use the term except when it is clear that we are doing a fantasy type thing.

More to the point - why do many dancers insist on using "gypsy" for a mish mash of dances with no link to real dance - yet imply it is the "real thing". You know, we do real belly dancing as brought to Egypt and Europe by Indian gypies who sang and danced their way across two continents and taught the non-singing non-dancing people how to do it. The fact that their descendents don't actually sing or dance that way now is due to a patriarchal conspiracy which has silenced the true voice of the dance

Originally Posted by kashmir

More to the point - why do many dancers insist on using "gypsy" for a mish mash of dances with no link to real dance - yet imply it is the "real thing". You know, we do real belly dancing as brought to Egypt and Europe by Indian gypies who sang and danced their way across two continents and taught the non-singing non-dancing people how to do it. The fact that their descendents don't actually sing or dance that way now is due to a patriarchal conspiracy which has silenced the true voice of the dance

Yes exactly and sometimes this kind of thing is spouted by people who definitely know better. And don't get me started on the Indian thing. Usually when I see someone perform a dance from India or fuse Arabic with Indian they explain it correctly. But usually the GP thinks that Belly Dance is from India. I don't blame Dancers who fused Indian influences because most of the GP has never even seen this done. But I cringe when I go to a show and someone says that their dance comes from the "Gypsy Diaspora and spread throughout India and the Middle East." Then they get up and do something that doesn't look like it comes from any of those places or peoples whiile wearing costuming that pulls from at least 5 different countries and hollywood orientalist fantasy.