Thread: American Cabaret & Muscle Control

So I was watching a video that had performances by Helena Vlahos the other night, and of course it showed the coin rolling thing - which is AMAZING. It got me to thinking, extreme feats of muscle control were often what was associated with American Bellydancing in the 70s and early 80s, but its something I hardly see today - even in drum solos, there doesn't seem to be a lot of emphasis on fluttering, belly rolls, or 'isolations' in the choreography. Maybe I'm not watching the right videos. :)

My question is - is there still an emphasis and anybody performing with that emphasis on feats of muscle control and isolation training? If so - who? Any videos I can watch as I would like to incorporate more of this into my routines and practice regimens?

Sadie is known for her flutters and isolations:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FzDXvYAKEA]YouTube - Sadie Belly Dance 2008[/ame]

And Neenah of Dallas does both the coin trick and a trick with a shot glass:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agdtVLjhPL8]YouTube - Neenah Shot Glass @ Stratos[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d45KEtQQt84]YouTube - Neenah Coin Trick @ Stratos[/ame]

Fahtiem's famous sideways ab rolls here: (starting around 1:10-ish)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdyoq_GeSF0]YouTube - Bellydance - Fahtiem[/ame]

I think a lot of the slow sinuous muscle control has been replaced with the fast twitch muscle pop and lock - in relation to the more percussive music that is played today.

Princess Farhana has GREAT flutters and has an ab video:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcY1y-vi6SM]YouTube - ABS-OLUTELY FABULOUS! with Princess Farhana[/ame]

t got me to thinking, extreme feats of muscle control were often what was associated with American Bellydancing in the 70s and early 80s, but its something I hardly see today - even in drum solos, there doesn't seem to be a lot of emphasis on fluttering, belly rolls, or 'isolations' in the choreography.

I suspect it's also reflective of the massive popularity of Egyptian style in the US over the past couple of decades, which is less about body tricks.

I'm never going to be a top flutterer/roller/tricksy person, but I would love to see more oriental dancers who like the older American cabaret style get back into it so that it doesn't get repackaged as TF.

I believe Helena Vlahos still teaches? But also, those dancers in those days pretty much worked this stuff out for themselves. There's nothing stopping you creating your *own* body feats!

SUhaila Salimpour is known for her glute vibration and layering which also includes up-down and down-up belly rolls which consist of (depending) upperback/upper abs/lower ab and reverse)

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I suspect it's also reflective of the massive popularity of Egyptian style in the US over the past couple of decades, which is less about body tricks.

I'm never going to be a top flutterer/roller/tricksy person, but I would love to see more oriental dancers who like the older American cabaret style get back into it so that it doesn't get repackaged as TF.

I believe Helena Vlahos still teaches? But also, those dancers in those days pretty much worked this stuff out for themselves. There's nothing stopping you creating your *own* body feats!

No, I don't think extreme feats of muscle control characterized the 70's and 80's. Most dancers danced fairly normal. Yes floorwork was more popular and yes we did consider belly rolls and flutters, etc as common fare. But the belly rolling coin trick for example was just that, a trick. it was something Helena did very well at. I would get so annoyed when people would ask me to roll coins on my belly. That's not belly dancing. I remember another dancer used to have really strong ab muscles and would get guys to stand on her stomach while she was laying on the stage. A trick, a gimmick.

I think one thing that does separate the dancers from then is that we did learn a lot on our own and most of the dancers that I know personally had their own unique style or a "specialty" that they became known for.

I think a lot of the tribal dancers are tapping into the "extreme feats of muscle control" much more than the average American Caberet or Egyptian style dancer.

You gotta remember, it wasn't unusual to have 10 full minutes of chifitelli music in one 30 minute set. You had to come up with something to fill the time and entertain the audience.

we still teach this. never stopped.

Delilah teaches it on Volume 3 of her Delilah's Bellydance Workshop video series.

I suspect dancers these days prefer to dance to the music rather than be circus performers.

Originally Posted by kashmir

I suspect dancers these days prefer to dance to the music rather than be circus performers.

Well said.. these tricks may be fun to many audience members, but they give a wrong idea of the dance. Circus is a good way of putting it IMO.

Well the circus aspect comes from the rolling coins and balancing glasses.. and many of us still use props in our dancing so maybe its just that the props have changed. And by the way, I think of myself as a circus artist (in my non-bellydancing dance life) so I'm very proud of all that I do.

But I think that awesome ab control allows you to express certain things in the music, especially in a taxim, in a way that doesn't have to be freakish. Do y'all recommend that Princess Farhana DVD? I'm thinking of treating myself to some new dance DVDs.

How rude. Seriously, to those who are making statements like 'circus performers' that's incredibly rude to those dancers who put in the time to learn those abilities. Helena is a matron of the dance and has done a TON for belly dance community, and yet you want to label her a circus performer? She's also a terrific DANCER as well.

Dancers are not 'circus performers' they are entertainers. And if a woman like Helena or this Neenah woman want to 'entertain' with displays of their talent other than just dancing, they should be free to without your smug criticisms. If you don't like it, that's fine, but then don't say anything at all.

Reread my original post. I didn't say 'hey who still rolls coins that's all I care about' - I asked 'who demonstrates a good deal of muscle control in their performances? 'The woman who posted noting the discrepency between the 'fast pop & lock' styles vs. the more 'slow, deliberate, isolations' got more of the idea I was going for in the first place.

The conversation came about because I took my friend to a hafla and after so much Dolphina style dancing from 5 out of 6 dancers, my friend was very 'meh.' When I asked why, she said, "I thought it was harder. I expected to see things that I couldnt do. Muscle stuff." Finally the last dancer had some good belly rolls and my friend said "Yeah. More like this." So just realize that OUTSIDE of the 'bubble' of MED community, there are expectations (fair or not) of what people expect to see from belly dancers.

Alright - that being said, off my soapbox. Thank you to those who posted videos and who dropped hints. Keep them coming, please. Sadie is an excellent dancer. Fahtiems belly rolls are quite impressive. I have yet to see Suhaila's glute vibrations. Though I guess I was originally thinking belly rolls, flutters, isolations there, I didn't really think about amazing isolations elsewhere. I'd assume that Suhaila has the market cornered on that but I suppose somebody out there has patented thigh isolations or biceps or something. If so, I'd like to see it or hear about it. Might be interesting.

I will be looking at her 2 new ones asap.. I have them already!

yes the emphasis should be on if the person with amazing muscle control then expresses something amazing.. if yes: perfect. If not: well the circus tricks are most enjoyable for the general public of mixed background I guess. I bet it's fantastic family entertainment, as long as the costume is adapted to lying on the floor ,r:;

hahaha okay. that's funny :)

There's a dancer named Una in the SF Bay area- she does amazing stomach work and moves a belly chain every which way.

Originally Posted by silkspectre

How rude. Seriously, to those who are making statements like 'circus performers' that's incredibly rude to those dancers who put in the time to learn those abilities. Helena is a matron of the dance and has done a TON for belly dance community, and yet you want to label her a circus performer? She's also a terrific DANCER as well.

Dancers are not 'circus performers' they are entertainers. And if a woman like Helena or this Neenah woman want to 'entertain' with displays of their talent other than just dancing, they should be free to without your smug criticisms. If you don't like it, that's fine, but then don't say anything at all.

Reread my original post. I didn't say 'hey who still rolls coins that's all I care about' - I asked 'who demonstrates a good deal of muscle control in their performances? 'The woman who posted noting the discrepency between the 'fast pop & lock' styles vs. the more 'slow, deliberate, isolations' got more of the idea I was going for in the first place.

I think for some of us it is frustrating when the GP equates coin tricks with belly dancing, as if you are NOT a "real" belly dancer unless you can do these things, and if you don't do that, then that attitude can be very frustrating. I've been asked many times if I can do the coin trick, because Neenah is in my town, and occasionally I can tell that the asker puts me in "not real belly dancer" category when I tell them that I can't, and that can be irritating.

And back in the day, there were a lot more weird tricks out there - belly dancers were once considered little more than circus sideshow acts - here's one that does indeed fall into the category of "circus performer".

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcOvl0h5Za8]YouTube - Princess Rajah Dance[/ame]

I think that a lot of us don't want to go back to those days when just good dancing wasn't enough, and I am definitely not going to start grabbing furniture in my teeth.

I'll get back to your original point in a moment.....g.:

Here's some evidence of muscular control by "Golden Era" dancer Samia Gamal (very brief, but you can see her abs in a closeup around 3:38. She's using her core a lot to power those hips!)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ7FPfvNuto]YouTube - Samia Gamal - Ali Baba and the 40 thieves سامية جمال[/ame]

I know there's a better vid out there, but this is the one that sprang to mind this afternoon.

Ha ha...I have used the chair lady in a presentation - as my closer. I added some nice Rom violin behind her and introduced her as my Grandma!

I would call it the exception to the rule. Not everybody has the talent to do this nor should it be a measurement to do great bellydancing. It is what it is - some dancers have it down great, some don't. But that doesn't mean anybody is a better or worse dancer because he/she can master this.

I agree with Fotia :) And I think its a big leap to go from Helena or Neenah to Grandma with the chair LOL. Thank you. These are great tips. Will keep me learning and watching for days. Any video on this Una? I'm curious as to what she does? You mean a wearable belly chain?

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

And Neenah of Dallas does both the coin trick and a trick with a shot glass:

YouTube - Neenah Shot Glass @ Stratos

YouTube - Neenah Coin Trick @ Stratos

I have to say, that as much as I deplore parlor tricks in general,(even though I'm guilty of some of that!) that shot glass thing was amazing. Ah those good old Greektown style dancers. Entertainers all.

I do think that a resurgence of Egyptian style has washed a lot of the 'parlor tricks' out- but I want to point out that they DO have a place in traditional belly dance as well- look at some of the turkish dancers balancing drums on their bellies during floorwork, I'm spacing right now, but there was the gal who did the amazing backbends & picked jewels up with her eyelids- isn't the Egyptian standing on a drum & dancing a 'parlor trick'? or dancing with candelabra or on goblets or sword, etc? what about Aziza's thing about pretending she is lifting body parts with a string? wth is wrong with throwing in a couple parlor tricks? as far as I'm concerned, it IS a fun part of the dance.

I think it's great fun

As long as it doesnt require an audience member to get inside my magic 3 foot force field..I am good with it.

Originally Posted by kashmir

I suspect dancers these days prefer to dance to the music rather than be circus performers.

I agree.
Some dancer's performances are like 80% tricks...is that even dancing anymore?

I asked 'who demonstrates a good deal of muscle control in their performances?

Well, that's the thing - who *doesn't*? Belly dance and muscle control go together. Any strong, powerful dancer uses a good deal of muscle control. Even less powerful-looking dancers do too, as the Samia clip demonstrates.

But if you're talking about flutters and rolls and things, well you're talking body tricks that use very particular muscle control.

What body parts does Aziza lift by 'string' - and yes the belly rolls and flutters and different isolations are what I had in mind. I know that ALL bellydancing requires some degree of muscle control, there are just some moves that seem to require more 'focused' control. Is that a good way to describe it?

Originally Posted by silkspectre

How rude. Seriously, to those who are making statements like 'circus performers' that's incredibly rude to those dancers who put in the time to learn those abilities.

To be fair, I believe both Jamila Salimpour and Bert Balladine were circus performers in their early days, and much of the earliest public exposure to belly dancing in the US was on the midway circuit, so we "come by it honest" as they say. "Circus" is part of the history of the American evolution of the dance form, so it's not surprising that it's been an influence.

Dancers are not 'circus performers' they are entertainers.

Circus performers are entertainers who spend years (if not their whole lives) mastering their crafts, too, and it comes off almost derogatory to say something like this. There is a lot of shtick in belly dance--some authentic, some not. Who's to say that it isn't every bit as impressive but utterly campy to dance with a candelabra balanced on your head (authentic) as it is to flip quarters into a shot glass while you're doing floorwork (sideshow trick)? Each dancer should be free to decide which moves, feats of skill, and outright gimmicks work for their personal style.