Thread: so why not belly dance?

I came across a thread about the "belly dancers" from Argentina with video of said dance included. It was X rated and so is Shakira's newest vid which is unfortunate since the gen pop is acquainted with her as a pop star/belly dancer (but that is a thread that's already been done.) I have come across several other threads of like kind and have to wonder, as a newbie, why no one has a degree in belly dance? I see highly reknown and respected colleges offering degrees in perfomrance art/dance with many ways to specialize the degree including Bharata Natyam but I don't see belly dance. I believe that even an associate degree in MED perfomance art would elevate the dance to a form of art that is respected and perhaps would help to rid the perception that belly dancers are anything less than skilled professionals. I guess, as a nurse, I wonder why this isn't being persued. Nursing used have the same occupational trouble with being respectable. It was a profession that was less than desirable since during the cursades nursing originally was a punishment for wayward women of low status to repay their debt to society instead of going to jail. Nurses have worked long and hard to gain respect and become recognized professionals So, with that in mind, why not belly dance?

Originally Posted by Suhira

have to wonder, as a newbie, why no one has a degree in belly dance?

I...think your comment kind of implies that we dancers haven't made it happen, and why not?
I would answer that, speaking frankly, there's a massive disconnect between belly dance and the academic community. Although there are any number of dancers who are also involved in the academic community, I've also heard, on many occasions, how other academicians have reacted when they mention they explore this dance form.
To offer a course in belly dance takes institutional support,and that varies strongly from institution to institution. To offer a Degree in this art form takes a pretty major amount of support, and that involves having, among other things, far more academic work on raqs sharqi and it's derivations than is generally acknowledged, to take just one of many data points.

My observations are that "Belly Dance" would be a "focus" of another degree, most likely, and it's been done by some in that way. This is how many institutions support "non-standard" dance forms as areas of study as opposed to a "formal" degree.

That said, it's important to underline that "belly dance" has a set of issues revolving around it, issues surrounding it's "appropriateness". That's on a number of levels; we're oft-seen as a "sexually aggressive" dance form, and that's been an issue I've heard about at more than one institution that's offered this form as a class. Anything that smacks of Islam, fairly or not, tends to be questioned, even in supposedly "liberal" circles. We're also seen as "entertainment", not art, by many people, and Higher Ed prefers to teach art. All these, and more others might note, conspired to keep many dances -- but esp., in my opinion, this form -- out of any academic setting, much less as a catalog-listed degree.

I thought Egypt was offering a degree (or talking about offering one)?

It probably hasn't been offered yet, because we don't have a solid system of evaluation that would allow someone to receive a degree in belly dance. Obviously every major in college has some leeway (college A's physics major isn't the same as college B's), but there are, on a whole, universally fundamental classes you'd take. For belly dance, would you be required to take tribal? Learn Arabic or Turkish? Play zills? Perform floorwork? It would be a lot of work to determine what would be needed to have a BA or BFA in belly dance.

There also isn't a lot of academic quality work out there that I've seen. I did an independent study in 2005/2006 and there was not much on belly dancing. I think that would go a long way in bridging belly dancing and the univerities/

That's not even getting into whether dance/performing arts are even aware belly dance exists and whether they think that it's worthwhile to offer a class or two, let alone a full major.

UCLA offers a Masters in dance and Music Ethnology concentrating on Middle Eastern Dance. I believe CS Fullerton and UC Riverside do also. (Ia am looking this up to confirm.) I also believe that Jenna recently was asking about an Italian university which was offering the degree.

When ever you look at a degree in the Arts, you are not only looking at the performance aspect, you are learning about the history, the culture, the different styles of any given art. Much will depend on the professors within the program. Example: if the head of the program is a former Graham dancer, chances are the program will be very modern intensive.

And that brings me to another point: getting those people who have the Masters in ME Dance into academia. Many are making a good living touring, teaching workshops, regular classes, etc. Tamra-Henna did (does?) have a gig teaching academically here in LA, but has to fight for studio space because of the limitations of the school. My first teacher is on staff at Cal State Dominguez Hills teaching flamenco, Gypsy style dance (Not called Belly Dance) and Belly dance. but she toured for several years before coming back to Southern California to live.

Anyway, I have more thoughts on this, but must do more research before opening my mouth. . .

{{{HUGS}}}}

Thanks so much for the great information. I am blown away by the amount of history surrounding this dance and the amount of skill required to perform that is not recognized by academia or especially the general public. My parallel to the history of nursing was simply that. Both belly dance and nursing as professions require knowledge and skill that is/was subverted by a generalization or perception that the women performing the job were somehow less than upstanding. I would love to see the art of belly dancing hailed as such and respected as such.

Belly dance is not a classical form, that's why. Bharata natyam is, that's why. Belly dance is not codified. Belly dance does not have one set of rules.

To me it is very important that any such codification come out of the ME, likely Egypt at this stage, BUT codifying belly dance to the degree that would make it classical would change it rather a lot. The nearest is folklore, by which I mean Reda etc.

Speaking from what I have seen in other academic disciplines, it is not a very easy process to get that going: in order to start a degree program, it is good if there are tenured faculty members who are interested in the topic and who have done research/active work in the topic area, who have the vision for how the degree would be structured (what the curriculum would be like, how students' skills and work would be evaluated, what the graduates would do with their degree), and who have the students. It is not trivial to convince their department and then the university that such a degree program is desirable and sustainable.

There have also been plenty of discussions on Bhuz about various non-academic certification programs. A search in the archives will bring up many excellent points made pro and con the certification in ME dance, which illustrates some of the difficulties one will encounter what developing a more performance-oriented ME dance degree.

Again, thank you, this information is wonderful and I will certainly search the archives for the previous threads.

I'm not sure if Belly Dance actually fits into an academic program - especially the perform side. You may get it squeezed in dance history or ethnic studies or something.

On the performance side there is no real codification as you have in ballet - and few ballet dancers do ballet-grams. It is an interesting mix of folkdance and entertainment.

Then, how many belly dancers would be interested in it? I'm thinking of the Egyptian regs - now (apparently) needing study in folkloric and ballet to get your licence - yet it only actually applies to those working in 5-Star hotels which is only a minute portion of working belly dancers. The rest do whatever they have done before. If we get over the who would take it and what would be included problems, it would still be optional and attract those who already study hard. The others will still be out there doing their wiggles.

Originally Posted by indigostars

For belly dance, would you be required to take tribal? Learn Arabic or Turkish? Play zills? Perform floorwork?

No, yes, yes, yes (unless you have a medical certificate) ..g.:

:) I think that's what would make the program difficult. Some people would probably argue that you need some kind of knowledge about tribal; I believe the theater program at my undergraduate school made all theater students learn some technical work and history, even if they were going to be actresses. And with the language stuff- how proficient would you need to be? Would you need to know more than one language? I know the music program at my undergraduate required the singing students to take a year of German, French, and Italian so that they'd understand what they were singing.

It would be a gigantic project to undertake, in short. I imagine that I'm even missing a few key things. Then there's generating the interest.

Originally Posted by indigostars

:) I think that's what would make the program difficult. Some people would probably argue that you need some kind of knowledge about tribal; I believe the theater program at my undergraduate school made all theater students learn some technical work and history, even if they were going to be actresses.

my program was the same. as a costume major i had to take classes in history, acting, lighting, set design, scene painting, directing, etc. the actors didn't have to take all these classes: they did intro to technical theatre and "theatre practice" which was (for freshmen) 8 hours a week, rotating through different technical disciples (costume, set, load crew) and doing... well, grunt work. it was because actors/actresses need to have an appreciation for what the technicians do, and technicians need to be able to work with each other and the actors, so that everyone understands they are there to put together a show, to work together to make each other look good. it helped to break down a lot of the "us-them" mentalities that many freshmen had, and helps each side appreciate the other's work. (and history, you just need to know that. it can't really be considered as "extra" to an actor's training)
i don't know if "cross training" in tribal is the same as this. it would be more analogous to ballet dancers cross training in modern dance. i think most ballet programs wouldn't require it. although most modern dance programs would require a ballet class or two. this seems appropriate to me. (most programs have "elective" requirements, that students are required to take some classes outside their major or concentration, this might be where "cabaret" style programs taking tribal would fit in)

Well, when I was studying in the Theatre and Dance department as an Undergrad, the dance majors had to take every kind of dance, even just one semester, even if it wasn't their concentration. So taking Tribal Style would probably be a requirement with the caveat that it is being taught as a lecture Dem class, heavy on history and papers on the origin and evolution of ATS.

{{{HUGS}}}

Maybe we should have a spin-off thread (or do it here). What classes would you require for a belly dance major? The challenges would be what to include and make it such that you can do it in 4 years.

Originally Posted by indigostars

:) I think that's what would make the program difficult. Some people would probably argue that you need some kind of knowledge about tribal; I believe the theater program at my undergraduate school made all theater students learn some technical work and history, even if they were going to be actresses.

If Tribal was a requirement, I'd say you'd also have to do some jazz and theatre dance which has about the same amount of connection ..g.: - maybe more. Ballet? Tap? Ballroom? Latin? Flamenco? All have a connection with various fusions. So, yes, maybe some other dance form - but not necessarily Tribal.

More to the point, what about folkloric? How can you be a belly dancer if you don't know at least some of the major folkloric style?

Originally Posted by indigostars

And with the language stuff- how proficient would you need to be? Would you need to know more than one language? I know the music program at my undergraduate required the singing students to take a year of German, French, and Italian so that they'd understand what they were singing.

Not proficient. But I think you'd need to be able to speak a few words in your Middle Eastern speciality area and be able to understand a few songs (ie you could learn them off as rote but know that this bit is "heart", that bit is "beloved", that this is the social context of the song) - a bit like you "do" a couple of Shakespeare plays.

You'd probably need tribal if you did a degree in American BD. You would NOT need tribal if you did a degree in Middle Eastern dance.

And word to the folklore. There's far too much "we must do orientale AND tribal" and far too little "oh and by the way we can't do orientale without doing folk" these days.

I miss the folkloric dances, people used to perform them more here on the West Coast of the U.S. Our Guild sometimes offers folkloric dance workshop but sadly, they usually aren't as well attended as Egyptian or Tribal workshops. Next Spring we are hosting Karim Nagy and he will be teaching an Arabic Folk Dance Intensive workshop, which we will be marketing to the local folk dance community as well as to belly dancers. I expect that he might draw more than some others we've had. I'm sure looking forward to it!

Oops, sorry, I just realized this is completely off topic. As you were!

getting an 'in' with academia can be a loooong, slow process. Locally, I started a campus club that also offered lessons while my friend worked with the modern dance instructor to convince the U to add Belly Dance as a recreational class. another 5 years later (and the modern dance instructor had been working on this before that!) the 'dance program' is now officially linked to the Theater program- as in the single credit dance classes count as a theater elective, not required, still barely recognized. It works great if you are looking for top notch instruction at a very low price ($300 for a full semester of 2 hour & a half long classes? Sign me up!) but it is hardly what I would call academic recognition. It's not that there aren't people actively out there trying to gain academic recognition or promote the dance through our schools, but the academic bureaucracy is very resistant to change, even in sympathetic fields. The 'world drum' class STILL refuses to touch ME rhythms- music dept. is happy to work with African, Cuban & modern dance classes, but not 'those belly dancers.'

maybe the adult edu bd classes that are taught at schools (particularly any adult edu thru a community college) are a baby step towards this?

I think a lot of academic departments don't consider BD real, serious dance. Read this interview with Sandra, point 5:

Sandra -- Bellydance -- raks-sharki.com

Thank you so much to everyone for sharing their thoughts on the matter. I can see that to get that second degree that I will have to blaze a trail and I'm not sure that I'm up for that. I will just stick with the work and forget the piece of paper. (and I was so excited to finally realize that something actually is out there that I would be willing to go back to "skool" and work for)

Well, you *may* have a chance at a very liberal school. Smith, my alma mater, does have Donna Meijer teaching tribal. She has been there since 2006 in the fall. They let me do a full year independent study there. I imagine another college in the area, Hampshire (Asim is an alum from there), may be open to the idea.

I've known people with self-designed majors, which is what it sounds like you would have to do. Not in Middle Eastern dance but in other things. You have to be incredibly motivated, disciplined, organized, and lucky, but it can happen.

Also, schools such as UCLA and Cal State Fullerton DO have advanced degrees in Dance Ethnology with a concentration in ME dance. Sahra Sa'eeda, Tmra-Henna and Amara all have gone this route. I believe that Amara is working on her PhD in Dance at UC Riverside.

As for self designed majors, my first attempt at a masters was one. You also have to know a great deal about your subject matter and be a good sales person. Many times you will have a panel of instructors who you will have to convince every term of what you want to study and why, academically, this supports your end goal. This many times leads to an extra term or even year.

{{{HUGS}}}

I did my MA around belly dance, but it's completely theoretical (though I probably could have wangled a performance component if I had tried very hard). There are a few of us who have done *that*, in fields like sociology, anthropology, cultural studies and you could probably get it into a theatre degree if you worked it right. It's possible but obviously you need to be doing original work, not going along to a programme.

Originally Posted by dunyah

I miss the folkloric dances, people used to perform them more here on the West Coast of the U.S. Our Guild sometimes offers folkloric dance workshop but sadly, they usually aren't as well attended as Egyptian or Tribal workshops. Next Spring we are hosting Karim Nagy and he will be teaching an Arabic Folk Dance Intensive workshop, which we will be marketing to the local folk dance community as well as to belly dancers. I expect that he might draw more than some others we've had. I'm sure looking forward to it!

Oops, sorry, I just realized this is completely off topic. As you were!

Oooh, oooh, Dunyah!! Let me know when this is happening!!!

cheers -- maia