Thread: Turkish Dancing, American Caberet and Vintage Orientale

I know this article has appeared before but I'm resurrecting it as I think it's important to remember our roots.

Turkish Dancing

Thanks so much for sharing that! I'm getting back into Turkish style after neglecting it for 2 years. I especially thought this snippet was relevant:

"The new students were partaking of only one slice of a much larger and legitimate pie. This pie encompasses Turkish style, Vintage Orientale, Lebanese Oriental style, Egyptian Oriental style and now American Tribal style. However, many students thought and still think that the Egyptian slice is the entire pie."

There were some snippets that caught my attention. That's why I felt compelled to post it.

Here's a couple of snippets that struck a chord with me:

Unfortunately now, many dancers in Turkey are imitating the Egyptian styling and they prefer the Egyptian Oriental dance music and also Arabic Pop music. This is affecting the dance in unfortunate ways. Dance is driven by music and the Arabic music has a different feeling to it, a different “energy.” When the Turkish dancers superimpose their dance onto the Arabic music, it loses the Turkish spirit. The popularity of the Egyptian stying is also resulting in a lack of finger cymbal playing so some dancers are losing touch with their musicianship. Unfortunately many Non-Turkish dancers now who are curious about Turkish style are watching internet clips of this newer form of Turkish dance and they think that this is what Turkish style has looked like all along. This is, however, a very new adaptation employed by dancers who originally studied with more traditional teachers and did the older style. They recently have veered off in a new direction. Although they are very good dancers, I fear that the Turkish Oriental dance is losing its original identity.

And...
A new form was emerging in America and Egyptian elements (or what people thought were Egyptian elements) were rapidly being incorporated into the newly named "Egyptian style of Oriental dance." The so called “Modern Egyptian style” of the 1980s is different from what many of the newer dancers are doing today. The Turkish style and the Vintage Orientale was slipping into obscurity because the New York night clubs were closing one by one so many of the dancers went on the circuit or retired

It's so interesting, especially the point about "true" Turkish dance going extinct even in Turkey. There was a thread not long ago about how Didem looks so much better with her new Egyptianized style, and it made me interested to go back and check out clips of Tulay Karaca, Nesrin Topkapi and others. You just don't see that style anymore, and it's sad. And I didn't think Didem looked better or worse - just more Egyptian.

In some circles, there's definitely an attitude that Turkish dance is uncouthe. You hear a lot of references to Didem's "offbeat" musical interpretation. One of my friends likes to knock Turkish dancers because they move too fast and "all belly dance should be subtle, like Egyptian." Not to mention, the stereotype of the scantily clad Turkish dancers. There's some odd information going around, and sadly, so few workshops offered in Turkish dance, at least in my area.

Where did all this misinformation come from, anyway? What prompted the shift to a more Egyptianized style? Talk to me like a third grader

I really think it's like Artemis said, around the same time that the Egyptian style became really popular in the 80's, many of the clubs where dancers danced Turkish or Vintage Oriental style started to close down and the dancers who worked in them retired. In my area, the last club closed in 1997 and the dancers I had worked with throughout the 80's had their start in the 1970's so they all retired.

I then went on to work in the Arabic clubs and now they too are starting to die out. Of course being in Detroit we kind of had the best of both worlds and the best dancers were sort of crossed-trained on both styles. We all had strong american caberet background and we learned the arabic dance directly from the Arabic dancers, singers, and musicians and of course those overseas videos.

Costuming changed around this time too. The full skirt and leggy look that was so popular made way for more form fitting straight skirts. It makes sense when you think about it. In Egyptian style you didn't do a lot of spins and floorwork so you didn't need all that fabric whirling about you. The slimmer skirt emphasized the more subtle moves.

Then throw politics into the equation and the Egyptian dancers are forced to cover up. And of course we over hear start imitating whatever they over there did!

So I'm thinking that any one who started dancing in the late 1990's has never even seen a live show in the old style except in those few areas where dancers have kept the tradition going.

Thanks, Norma, for this thread.
This makes me think of how dancers ignore whatever is not egyptian. That's what happens here in my country. Moreover, American Cabaret is seen as a fantasy and people are not aware of its roots in Turkish Oriental style...

Here are some important previous threads related to this discussion:

http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...-same-era.html

http://www.bhuz.com/forum/music-trad...70s-music.html

http://www.bhuz.com/forum/music-trad...rformance.html

http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...e-control.html

http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...zed-style.html

Thank you all for the information!
I have some reading to do :)

very intersting. This is exactly the sort of info I've been curious about lately. Judging from the interest that has been shown here on Bhuz do you think Turkish (or at least the acknowledgment of) is starting to make a return to the scene?

I think American Cabaret and by extension Turkish are the Next Big Thing and I've been saying that for a while. I won't be really going there since I'm not physically suited to the dance, don't warm to Turkish music and I'm *finally* in a position where I can pursue modern and classic Egyptian style with quite a bit of knowledge, but younger dancers? For sure.

I do hope we're not going to have to slag off Egyptian in order to allow American Cabaret/Turkish some space, however. I've seen a bit of snark about it already.

I think it is absolutely possible to do both Egyptian and Turkish / AmCab. It becomes a question of knowing the music, traditions, etc and applying them appropriately.

For me, I am thinking of contacting a couple of retired teacher/dancers here in SoCal to see if I can get some private tutoring. I think this is possible everywhere.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

For me, I am thinking of contacting a couple of retired teacher/dancers here in SoCal to see if I can get some private tutoring. I think this is possible everywhere.

{{{HUGS}}}

Great idea.

It isn't possible everywhere, as many of us live in countries and communities which don't have an older generation of Turkish or classic Am-Cab teachers...

I'm Lucky because Japan does have a Turkish scene and we do get visiting "older-school" Turkish dancers and have a few teachers here.

I think there will probably be a big surge of interest in the more traditional styles. I'm already starting to see a shift in costuming. I think ultimately, the eventually people will go back more to the mind set of 30-50 years ago where there wasn't this distinction of styles and realize we are more similar then we are different. A good dancer is a good dancer. At least I hope that is where we are headed!

Originally Posted by norma

I think ultimately, the eventually people will go back more to the mind set of 30-50 years ago where there wasn't this distinction of styles and realize we are more similar then we are different. A good dancer is a good dancer. At least I hope that is where we are headed!

I agree! Here's to "bellydance"!

Here at Ansuya's new studio in Naples (holy smokes aren't we LUCKY!!!) we not only have Ansuya's classes but have her mother Jenaeni teaching an advanced performance class. Basically, we learn the different parts of the old nightclub "cabaret" set, including a bit of history and a bit of old-school nightclub education. Plenty of floorwork integration and awesome tips on various rhythms and styles of songs. And LOTS of zills. I finally feel like I found my bellydance voice...although I LOVE watching all styles, I just never felt right doing Egyptian, personally, and that was about all I was exposed to for quite some time. I still feel a little like a "black sheep" in the greater/global bellydance community, but we love it here at our studio. :) I think our similarities AND differences make the dance even better! Doesn't the saying go "variety is the spice of life"? Mmmmm...spicy....

Originally Posted by ozma

Great idea.

It isn't possible everywhere, as many of us live in countries and communities which don't have an older generation of Turkish or classic Am-Cab teachers...

Good point. But there are probably more out there than we think. It is a matter of being bold and digging around. Many have no desire to set themselves up as a teacher, but was quiet happy to talk to you.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

Good point. But there are probably more out there than we think. It is a matter of being bold and digging around. Many have no desire to set themselves up as a teacher, but was quiet happy to talk to you.

{{{HUGS}}}

There probably are, but the scene here is about 20-25 years old and the two primary "grandmothers of the dance" here have gone very Egyptian...l;,

I love the Turkish clarinet. But from videoclips, I don't like what I see that is declared Turkish style or clips of Turkish dancers - I love the Nesrin clips but she dances to Arabic music there.
I just haven't been witness of the tradition.
Some day I'll just take a music I like and invent something on it that sounds suitable to me.

Originally Posted by Nouria

I love the Turkish clarinet. But from videoclips, I don't like what I see that is declared Turkish style or clips of Turkish dancers - I love the Nesrin clips but she dances to Arabic music there.
I just haven't been witness of the tradition.
Some day I'll just take a music I like and invent something on it that sounds suitable to me.

Have you check out my Turkish dancer thread? Most of those clips are to Turkish music.

Yes! Here's to all the styles and the well-rounded dancers that do them.

BTW, those of us that have taken Artie's Turkish intensive have vowed to do what we can to bring Turkish back!..g.:

Originally Posted by norma

I think there will probably be a big surge of interest in the more traditional styles. I'm already starting to see a shift in costuming. I think ultimately, the eventually people will go back more to the mind set of 30-50 years ago where there wasn't this distinction of styles and realize we are more similar then we are different. A good dancer is a good dancer. At least I hope that is where we are headed!

I sure hope so because we all have different personalities, shouldn't our personal dance style express that rather than everyone trying to imitate whoever is hot in Egypt??

Originally Posted by norma

Have you check out my Turkish dancer thread? Most of those clips are to Turkish music.

Yes I'm following it. Sorry btw. for posting Hale Sultan there, who does dance to Arab music, too, but she doesn't dance like an Arab dancer. I noticed that most, I believe apart from Nesrin and the Marilyn-Monroe-Samia-Gamal looking dancer are dancing to genuine Turkish music. But some dancers have told me that Arab music played by Turks has a different feel to it. I once had a cd in my hands called Turkish bellydance music, and it was all Arab music, with one or two typical Turkish instruments in it sometimes, but mostly Arab. Still they say a Turk plays the tabla differently.

Originally Posted by Athallia

I sure hope so because we all have different personalities, shouldn't our personal dance style express that rather than everyone trying to imitate whoever is hot in Egypt??

Yes they should. I remember all the dancers I worked with in the past were successful because they each had their own style.

Originally Posted by Nouria

Yes I'm following it. Sorry btw. for posting Hale Sultan there, who does dance to Arab music, too, but she doesn't dance like an Arab dancer. I noticed that most, I believe apart from Nesrin and the Marilyn-Monroe-Samia-Gamal looking dancer are dancing to genuine Turkish music. But some dancers have told me that Arab music played by Turks has a different feel to it. I once had a cd in my hands called Turkish bellydance music, and it was all Arab music, with one or two typical Turkish instruments in it sometimes, but mostly Arab. Still they say a Turk plays the tabla differently.

There is definitely a crossover as far as the music goes.

Very interesting... I had read some of the articles before, but it's nice to have a refresher. I enjoyed it very much -thank you!