Thread: It's not dancing, it's choreography!

I was watching White Christmas this morning as part of AMC's White Christmas marathon. In the movie, Danny Kaye does this spoof number entitled, "It's Choreography!" In the dance he laments the end of individuality and the solo dancer in exchange for choreography where the dancers all look the same, dress the same, dance the same. It was ironic that this piece was done to a choreography.

However the number really struck me as this is a concept we have often discussed on bhuz. Apparently, it is nothing new and dancers have be struggling with this issue for decades.

I also came across this comment about a tango dancer which entranced me:

"While I was doing my research on the various styles of the Golden Age I would ask dancers that I met who, apart from themselves of course, was the best dancer of the style. In the north of the city the answer always came back "Portalea". I would ask why, and I was always told that it was the way he interpreted the music that made him the best. One evening someone told me that Portalea was in the room, so, very excited, I scurried off to watch him dance. And I looked at him in amazement, because I simply could not work out how what he was doing had anything to do with the rhythm of the music at all. And that, of course, was my mistake. He wasn't dancing the rhythm of the music. He was dancing the phrase."

So it appears there as been for decades at least this dichetomy about dancing with feeling to the music "the phrase" or "the sentence" vs. dancing the the measure, the rhythm, the beat. And I find it interesting that this crosses different dance genres. Obviously the problem is not unique.

Funny, we're on the same wavelength, Norma -- I was watching the movie and thinking about that number in relationship to Bhuz etc. too!

But I take the point of the song to be that dance has stopped being about entertainment, and too much about "high art" -- that it's taken too seriously and has stopped being fun ...

Interested to see what others have to say

I've also been pondering whether we could adapt those big feathery fans from the "sisters" dance for BD!

I was thinking the same thing about the big feathery fans! Heck. Dancers are all ready using silk fans! LOL!

I agree, with your interpretation of the song. It's hard to put in words but it was more about just dancing to the music instead of trying to be uniform and correct. I've seen the movies a gizzillion times and for some reason I never caught this scene. I must have just tuned it out! Freud where are you?

But seriously, I just love the costumes of that era.

almost all the workshops i've been in where a choreography was taught people didn't even listen to the music and would say they "were concentrating on learning the steps" so that they didn't even hear the music that went with it.
when i learn a choreography it's to "try on" how someone else interprets the music, so i always get confused by it when people tune out the music in order to learn the steps.

There are dancers who can dance while doing choreography. But most people, I am afraid, just end up doing choreography.

This is where I am glad I don't "do" choreography. Having trained as a classical western dancer, I was inundated with choreography from the time I was 3. I never learned HOW to choreograph because no one ever asked MY opinion and I never received feedback.

But there is security in choreography. The challenge is several fold: 1) finding a choreographer who dances the way you do or will choreograph with your body / dance style in mind, 2) Really taking the time to study the music to the point that you are completely in it's thrall, and 3) knowing the choreography so well that you can let go of it, stop thinking 5 counts ahead and simply Dance. This is the hardest because not only does it demand that you know the choreo inside and out, you must be willing to let go of your ego, your fears, you doubts and be completely in the moment. Get out of your head and into your body, into the now. And most of us spend so much time engaged in worry that we miss this opportunity.

I have a great quote in my Coaching Blog. It goes something like this, " ...help me to believe the truth about myself, no matter how beautiful it is! –Macrina Wiederkehr We tend to forget how beautiful we really are.

{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by raqFariha

almost all the workshops i've been in where a choreography was taught people didn't even listen to the music and would say they "were concentrating on learning the steps" so that they didn't even hear the music that went with it.
when i learn a choreography it's to "try on" how someone else interprets the music, so i always get confused by it when people tune out the music in order to learn the steps.

I think part of that problem is the skill level at workshops is much lower than the teacher who created the choreography (& probably a different style not to mention method of teaching than they're used to).

But learning choreography is a good way to learn technique - "natural" dancers who always depend on improvising sometimes have messy technique (especially in the footwork dept.) because they didn't "buckle down" & learn step-by-step choreography.

- just an observation!

Originally Posted by anthea

But learning choreography is a good way to learn technique - "natural" dancers who always depend on improvising sometimes have messy technique (especially in the footwork dept.) because they didn't "buckle down" & learn step-by-step choreography.

- just an observation!

I think that's true. I hate teaching choreography, but it forces me to focus in ways that are very valuable to me as a dancer and as a teacher. And obviously it's beneficial for my students. But yes, it forces me to analyze and sharpen my technique in valuable ways.

Originally Posted by tahiradancer

"But there is security in choreography (...)knowing the choreography so well that you can let go of it, stop thinking 5 counts ahead and simply Dance. This is the hardest because not only does it demand that you know the choreo inside and out, you must be willing to let go of your ego, your fears, you doubts and be completely in the moment. Get out of your head and into your body, into the now. And most of us spend so much time engaged in worry that we miss this opportunity."

Tahira, this is so true and so beautiful. I believe that being present, being in the moment and really enjoying the dance is that "je ne sais quoi" that makes the dance unforgettable, not only for oneself, but for the audience. Letting go of the fears and insecurities is, I think, a huge part of "crossing the threshold" of amazing dancing. Did anyone see the movie "Satin Rouge"? When I started reading the thread I started thinking back to that movie... Anyway, I believe choreos are fantastic to show off technique and perhaps even musicality, but one has to be very careful to also make sure that one internalizes it enough that we make it unique and allows us to show our soul in the dance.

Heleyne

But learning choreography is a good way to learn technique - "natural" dancers who always depend on improvising sometimes have messy technique (especially in the footwork dept.) because they didn't "buckle down" & learn step-by-step choreography.

This.....

I don't mind studying choreography in an on-going class but I dislike choreography workshops, just not enough time to learn it (for me). I prefer to learn combos and put them together my own way.

I don't perform choreography, I do structured improvisation. I kind of hate performing choreography because my mind just doesn't work that way. But of course, dancing with a troupe requires choreography. Which I do like but I require LOTS of repetitions to learn it thoroughly.

If you invest the hours and hours needed to get a choreography into your body so that you dance it rather than "think" it, is it really worthwhile? I mean, how many times will you perform that choreography, if you are a soloist? I'm really curious, I'm not being snarky. For me, mastering a choreo the way you guys are describing would take MANY hours.

I have done it - I did it with one that I learned from Dalia Carella, but I've since forgotten it. How do you retain it years later? I think some people have better memory for choreo than others. I also think it is a skill that can be improved. I'm just not very willing to work at it, and I would probably change things to suit myself anyway.

Choreography can be interesting because it helps you understand how another dancer interprets the music. But I also dislike choreography for that same reason. Not everybody's interpretation jives with my own style, body type and musical ear. I've stopped attending workshops because almost every workshop I've attended in the last 2 years has been a choreography and I'm sick of learning hundreds of choreographies that I'll never use ,r:;

The few times I've attempted to use choreography in a performance setting, I've always abandoned it midway through the set. For one, it often feels impractical - especially when your space is limited, or there are guests and waiters scurrying about, or you nearly get pwned by a shag rug while attempting that perfectly timed directional change. Not to mention, I often find myself guided by the energy of my audience and the ambience of my performance space. Many times, a choreo won't "feel" right in an organic setting, outside of the sterile environment of the classroom. A lot of us who perform at parties and events tend to work our magic on a more extemporaneous, energetic level...

Originally Posted by dunyah

....For me, mastering a choreo the way you guys are describing would take MANY hours...

ditto, at least 30 hours (for one 4ish minute song). maybe that's why i can listen to music at workshops? i NEVER go into them thinking that i'll learn a choreography, in an hour or 5 it's not worth trying, so i might as well get something else that i can use from the workshop/class

Originally Posted by NisreenBrooklyn

But I take the point of the song to be that dance has stopped being about entertainment, and too much about "high art" -- that it's taken too seriously and has stopped being fun ...

That's what I've always thought, too. I always took the number to be a jab at Martha Graham.

I think choreography can have it's place in belly dance. There are certain pieces, particularly if it's more a stage event vs. restaurant/cafe, where you cant easily interact with your audience, I will likely throw in more choreo to make sure I have a little more polish. But whenever and wherever I'm soloing, depending on my mood and the venue or whatever, I may abandon or adapt the choreography.

I have years of classical dance training, so I learn choreos pretty quickly and can retain them pretty well. I think this all very individual, some learn fast other slow. There's no magic number.

But I agree about choreography workshops/DVDs not being my favorites. I only go to choreo workshops with dancers I really like and do it not so much to learn, retain and perform the choreos but to get a fresh perspective in musical interpretation maybe learn some new moves/technique and combos along the way.

Originally Posted by dunyah

I don't mind studying choreography in an on-going class but I dislike choreography workshops, just not enough time to learn it (for me). I prefer to learn combos and put them together my own way.

I don't perform choreography, I do structured improvisation. I kind of hate performing choreography because my mind just doesn't work that way. But of course, dancing with a troupe requires choreography. Which I do like but I require LOTS of repetitions to learn it thoroughly.

If you invest the hours and hours needed to get a choreography into your body so that you dance it rather than "think" it, is it really worthwhile? I mean, how many times will you perform that choreography, if you are a soloist? I'm really curious, I'm not being snarky. For me, mastering a choreo the way you guys are describing would take MANY hours.

I have done it - I did it with one that I learned from Dalia Carella, but I've since forgotten it. How do you retain it years later? I think some people have better memory for choreo than others. I also think it is a skill that can be improved. I'm just not very willing to work at it, and I would probably change things to suit myself anyway.

This is me.

I think people who mainly dance choreography learn them more quickly and taking notes can help. They will also dance them regularly if they do not like to improvise for a performance. Me, I'm an improviser, it takes me ages to learn a choreo, I can't be in my head to count and be in my body to dance at the same time, and my head is fried after 2 hours of class.

If a choreo is thought, I do learn this move looks nice after that one, how to interpret this rythm or that instrument in a way I or my weekly teachers would not have thought of, and I get a taste of this teacher's vibe. And, of course, building character by getting out of my comfort zone.

The ability to learn choreographies in a time-controlled situation such as a workshop is a skill--partially dependent on experience and practice, and partially on one's natural talent for it. The same could be said for performing a choreography. Inserting yourself into someone else's artistic vision in a way that is believable and interesting to watch is not to be taken lightly, because not everyone can do it well. Some actors are good at improv but lousy when confined to rigid scripting, and some shine when given a script but flail trying to work off the tops of their heads. Most are competent, and a lucky few are outstanding, in either situation. This dance is no different.

Yes, this dance is about your personal feelings, your personal movement vocabulary, and how you want to dance in the moment. The academic-ification of the dance with regard to using choreography as a primary teaching tool is coming from outside the original cultures, but it is not entirely strange to them. Perhaps it was a Western import at one time, but choreography is a part of the stage presentation of the dance in its native lands, and it has been for half a century or more.

If you want to be taken seriously as a well-rounded dancer, a certain amount of mastery of choreography is required, but the ability to dance without a pre-planned strategy is also important.

I think a stage dancer needs choreography, and a live music club dancer needs impro. To make a beautiful choreo that really makes sense to the music and is artful and entertaining to watch, one needs a lot of talent.And to only improvise and still be fascinating it also takes a great deal of charisma and experience. You can be a dancer without being the master dancer, I hope for myself, though. I'm not great at neither, but I lack practice.

I thought maybe we miss social dancing as part of the learning process. Too much studying, learning, mirrors, making a repertoire, wanting to master tricks and props and preparing for performances, awareness of being watched, vanity or insecuriy, it's stress, ambition, work!

But joyful dancing, being carried away, being natural, you learn this through dancing without stress, without trying to fulfill a bellydance-agenda at the same time.

I had to think of this scene there. Of course it's a movie, but still, it's the social thing, the spontaneous thing:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YIYsjKhZJo]YouTube - farid atrach- gamil gamal[/ame]

Merry christmas to everybody!

Responding to original reference (White Christmas):

I interpreted the "Choregraphy" number as a jab at Modern Dance, not choreo per se. The costumes, the movements etc. say to me that it lampoons the serious artsy-farstyness of modern dance which deliberately leaves out personality, theatricality and fun entertainment. Its tries to be an art form, not "just dancing".

So I think the number is a hoot, as a modern dance choreographer. ..l;,


Responding to choreography in bellydance:

Choreographing well is hard to do. Dancing a good choreography so that it looks fresh and spontaneous is hard to do. Finding a choreography that fits a dancer's style and personality is hard to do. Belly dancers usually don't get taught how to create a choreography. There are a lot of hideous choreographies out there. There are some bad dancers out there. There are lazy dancers out there. There are technique obsessed dancers out there...

I think "choreography" get blamed for a lot of things for which it's not responsible ... ..g.:

Creating a choreography is like birthing a big-headed baby...it's hard work! It takes me months to create one but I know the music inside and out when I finally perform it. And I don't have to worry about "what comes next" because I know it so well it's like improvising. I'm much more relaxed and feel the music more if I have a game plan.

I am so bad at Choreography and I know it's a weak spot of mine, so I am making myself a goal of learning more choreographies and learning to choreograph.

I don't want to end up as a dancer who has sloppy technique, but I also don't foresee myself relying heavily on Choreography.

That song was recently featured on "So You Think You Can Dance" for a Broadway piece. And, then I saw it again when watching White Christmas. I took it to mean a couple of different things:

• The phenomenon of social dancing being replaced by competition dancing, as we've seen a lot in ballroom
• The fact that a dance performance, instead of being fun and spontaneous, is now mechanically regulated by the choreographer's vision.

I think both of these points apply to belly dancing.

To cite one very clear example of how this applies to belly dancing, just go to a hafla that has both ATS people attending and Egyptian-style dancers. When an open floor segment starts and everyone gets up to dance, what do you see? Typically, the Oriental-style dancers each do individual, personally-spontaneous movement, while the ATS dancers form a clump and start doing "choreography" - ie, ATS step combinations with cues. I've seen many cases where the ATS dancers nearly ran over the others because they were so rigidly doing the "choreography" - ie, doing their prescribed step combinations and to hell with anyone who might be in their way.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

To cite one very clear example of how this applies to belly dancing, just go to a hafla that has both ATS people attending and Egyptian-style dancers. When an open floor segment starts and everyone gets up to dance, what do you see? Typically, the Oriental-style dancers each do individual, personally-spontaneous movement, while the ATS dancers form a clump and start doing "choreography" - ie, ATS step combinations with cues. I've seen many cases where the ATS dancers nearly ran over the others because they were so rigidly doing the "choreography" - ie, doing their prescribed step combinations and to hell with anyone who might be in their way.

seriously? is this common? ... wow, I haven't been in many situations where this would come up, but I'm just trying to imagine - very interesting. My ITS group always cuts loose and each does our own thing during open floor / social dancing times ... I mean, for brief moments a couple of us may dance together in a loose way the way anyone would in a social situation - not in any formal way ... the only way I could imagine being compelled to do otherwise is if maybe I never got a chance to dance ITS with anyone and that was my only opportunity ... otherwise, that's my "just dance" time.

I've *been* there when they've run the non-tribal dancers off the floor. They start front and centre and just take over the entire dance space. If you don't do tribal or don't want to try to join them, you're off in a tiny corner somewhere, or else deliberately dancing into their formations, which is aggressive and not nice.

It's actually one of the chief problems with "mixed style" haflas. Only *one* set of dancers actually gets to do much dancing. It's the reason I started doing occasional ME-dance-and-music-only haflas with an emphasis on social dance - so the dancers I knew who were afraid of improvisation would have an opportunity to hear a lot of ME music and get up and dance spontaneously to it if they wished.

wow that sounds pretty rude. I mean - we solo, it's not like we don't know how to dance by ourselves - I welcome any chance to do some freestyling for just that reason (of course, I don't just do tribal and some of the others in my group take more than one style too - so it's nice to be able to do whatever we are inclined to do during that time). but even if we were going to form up I'd like to think that if there were others around we'd move off and give space to everyone to do their thing.

(sorry if I took this off topic ... I was just intrigued )

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I've *been* there when they've run the non-tribal dancers off the floor. They start front and centre and just take over the entire dance space. If you don't do tribal or don't want to try to join them, you're off in a tiny corner somewhere, or else deliberately dancing into their formations, which is aggressive and not nice.

It's actually one of the chief problems with "mixed style" haflas. Only *one* set of dancers actually gets to do much dancing. It's the reason I started doing occasional ME-dance-and-music-only haflas with an emphasis on social dance - so the dancers I knew who were afraid of improvisation would have an opportunity to hear a lot of ME music and get up and dance spontaneously to it if they wished.

I've been to haflas where this has happened, too. It was a turn-off for me, I didn't enjoy the experience. Maybe why I never pursued ATS/ITS after that.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

To cite one very clear example of how this applies to belly dancing, just go to a hafla that has both ATS people attending and Egyptian-style dancers. When an open floor segment starts and everyone gets up to dance, what do you see? Typically, the Oriental-style dancers each do individual, personally-spontaneous movement, while the ATS dancers form a clump and start doing "choreography" - ie, ATS step combinations with cues. I've seen many cases where the ATS dancers nearly ran over the others because they were so rigidly doing the "choreography" - ie, doing their prescribed step combinations and to hell with anyone who might be in their way.

Not nice.

How can people be so rude? Either you ask for a slot to perform or you just share the dance space with everyone who wants to dance like you would in a disco. Sometimes I dance by myself, sometimes with someone and we copy each others moves or dance together in a natural, spontaneous way, (I learn a lot from this actually.) sometimes small circles form, but it is all flexible and organic. If nobody is on the dancefloor, it is okay to do something more showy or goofy or to take a veil or cae and use more space. But don't be selfish. Everyone has been looking forward to dance freely and unwind, it may be months before the next party is, so it can be really hurtful to rob other people of the opportunity to dance socially.

Originally Posted by ouroboros

Choreographing well is hard to do. Dancing a good choreography so that it looks fresh and spontaneous is hard to do. Finding a choreography that fits a dancer's style and personality is hard to do. Belly dancers usually don't get taught how to create a choreography. There are a lot of hideous choreographies out there. There are some bad dancers out there. There are lazy dancers out there. There are technique obsessed dancers out there...

I think "choreography" get blamed for a lot of things for which it's not responsible ... ..g.:

Yes to all of the above. Good-to-great musicans make wonderful music using other people's written music. But they expect to have to work very hard at making it 'theirs', not just brush it off with 'it doesn't suit me or my tastes or my body type or my mood.' It's okay with me if dancers don't WANT to do choreographies but damning the entire process seems... odd. I would hope that great dancers and great musicians can do both as appropriate.

wow that sounds pretty rude. I mean - we solo, it's not like we don't know how to dance by ourselves -

The very few ITS folks here really don't know how to dance by themselves. If the are not playing follow the leader, they got nothin. They simply cannot dance for the sheer joy of it without a template to follow. Their teacher keeps them so hobbled so she will always have "followers". Very sad.

Originally Posted by portiaangel

wow that sounds pretty rude. Even if we were going to form up I'd like to think that if there were others around we'd move off and give space to everyone to do their thing.

I doubt that the ATS dancers who do this intend to be rude. I think people sometimes just get carried away with having fun themselves and fail to notice the effect they're having on the people around them.

In some cases, I think it's the only thing they know how to do. If you only take one class, and it happens to be an ATS class, and if you spend your entire class learning how to do cued ATS, well, that will be the only thing you know how to do in the open-floor time at a hafla. So it does relate to the point of this thread - the only thing some people know how to do is "choreography".

I love choreography! I can do improvisation or choreography, for me I can do both.