Thread: Dance Classification Diagram

Discussion started here: http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...ce-vs-not.html and came up again here: http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...ellydance.html regarding this diagram by Nadira Jamal...

There is a component of the ethnic form of the dance that represents a social implementation of Orientale. It's what you see girls doing in videos of weddings and parties, and it is improvised movements that are learned informally, but they're the same shimmies, undulations, and articulations that professional dancers do, only in slightly rougher, unstudied form. It's the true sha'abi. Is that what you're calling "Middle Eastern Belly Dance Performed in Public"? It's not really in the same category as the Debke and other group dances over in the "Middle Eastern Folk/Social Dances Done in a social context," and it's also not the polished "Oriental: Egyptian, Lebanese, Turkish, Etc.," nor is it "Folk/Social Adapted for a Solo Oriental Show," since it isn't performed professionally. (I assume the latter is where you're putting things like cane dancing and staged Khaleeji.)

What is left to go in the circle "Middle Easter Dance" that isn't in any of the other intersections?

Moving on to the next circle, what is "Vintage Oriental"--American Cabaret or the Western attempt to model something after Samia Gamal and her contemporaries (as opposed to Dina and hers)? What's in the non-intersections of the "Belly Dance" circle?

Where does "Goddess Dance" go? Is that in the intersection of "Intentional Fusion" and "Belly Dance"? What about "Pharaonic Dance"? It's sort of a fusion off one of the "Middle Eastern" ethnic circles (but not in the same sense as stage-ified cane dancing, since it's not really folkloric in any way that we have evidence where we can point and say, "They definitely did this step..."), but as fabricated as it may be, it's still trying to tie into Egyptian culture, and when it's done properly, there is an attempt to have scholarly ethnic input into it.

I'm still thinking that you need some way to accommodate the intersection of "Fusion" and "Ethnic," because there are elements getting mixed in directly on the ethnic side without Western belly dance--for example, Latin Dance and Hip Hop. Sometimes Middle Easterners incorporate elements of Salsa or Flamenco without the Western belly dance community's input. Of course, you also have Beyonce, Shakira, and other Western singers who have a reputation for dancing in their music videos. Those artists are very popular in the Middle East, and it's unlikely that they're not contaminating the population's idea of what dancing looks like. It's only a matter of time before we see some of their moves filtered up and reflected back at us.

I skimmed the original thread--why did you take Reda off the folkloric circle?

To add to your "where does this go?" list, where does dance theater go? I've seen ads where what appears to be story told in the context of belly dance. Also, there should be somewhere there a category of non-Middle Eastern influence on belly dance. AFAIK, some of the props are not caused by people from the Middle East.

Good questions! I want to reiterate one more time that the diagram and my comments below are just my opinion on how to label the different branches of the dance family. I'm not saying that any one form is more valid artistically or culturally than any other. It's just my personal dance worldview. Feel free to have (and share) your own.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

There is a component of the ethnic form of the dance that represents a social implementation of Orientale. It's what you see girls doing in videos of weddings and parties, and it is improvised movements that are learned informally, but they're the same shimmies, undulations, and articulations that professional dancers do, only in slightly rougher, unstudied form. It's the true sha'abi. Is that what you're calling "Middle Eastern Belly Dance Performed in Public"? It's not really in the same category as the Debke and other group dances over in the "Middle Eastern Folk/Social Dances Done in a social context," and it's also not the polished "Oriental: Egyptian, Lebanese, Turkish, Etc.," nor is it "Folk/Social Adapted for a Solo Oriental Show," since it isn't performed professionally. (I assume the latter is where you're putting things like cane dancing and staged Khaleeji.)

I do consider that part of "middle eastern folk/social dances done in a social context". What you described is a modern form of middle eastern social dancing.

If I were making the same category for American folk/social dance, it would include everything from the Virginia Reel to the Electric Slide, to what an ordinary American does on the dance floor at a club or their cousin's wedding.

(more)

What is left to go in the circle "Middle Easter Dance" that isn't in any of the other intersections?

I can't think of anything, but that doesn't mean that there isn't anything there. But empty space on the diagram doesn't mean that there *are* dances that fit there.

Where does "Goddess Dance" go? Is that in the intersection of "Intentional Fusion" and "Belly Dance"? What about "Pharaonic Dance"? It's sort of a fusion off one of the "Middle Eastern" ethnic circles (but not in the same sense as stage-ified cane dancing, since it's not really folkloric in any way that we have evidence where we can point and say, "They definitely did this step..."), but as fabricated as it may be, it's still trying to tie into Egyptian culture, and when it's done properly, there is an attempt to have scholarly ethnic input into it.

I would put Goddess Dance & Pharaonic Dance into that part of intentional fusion that is still in the belly dance umbrella. Both are coming out of the belly dance lineage, but they evolved outside of a middle eastern cultural context, and without middle easterners vetting it.

(i.e, you don't see middle easterners presenting pharaonic dance; westerners may be doing good research, but they're recreating the dance from a combination of still images, vague text descriptions, and their mostly western belly dance training. And at no point is a middle eastern audience being given the opportunity to say "yes, this fits with our perception of middle eastern dance".)

So I consider those fusion styles of belly dance, but not *middle eastern* dance.

(more)

I'm still thinking that you need some way to accommodate the intersection of "Fusion" and "Ethnic," because there are elements getting mixed in directly on the ethnic side without Western belly dance--for example, Latin Dance and Hip Hop. Sometimes Middle Easterners incorporate elements of Salsa or Flamenco without the Western belly dance community's input. Of course, you also have Beyonce, Shakira, and other Western singers who have a reputation for dancing in their music videos. Those artists are very popular in the Middle East, and it's unlikely that they're not contaminating the population's idea of what dancing looks like. It's only a matter of time before we see some of their moves filtered up and reflected back at us.

Are you describing what happens when a middle eastern dancer takes influence from other forms? (i.e., Samia Gamal's latin dance influence?)

I would put those somewhere in the point of the triangle. What you would see is belly dance performed by a middle easterner, with non-middle eastern influences. But a middle eastern audience is vetting it and saying "hey, that's a neat innovation to add to this middle eastern belly dance show I'm watching."

If a middle eastern dancer goes far enough with it that the audience does not recognize it as belly dance, that's another story.

I skimmed the original thread--why did you take Reda off the folkloric circle?

It was pointed out to me that Reda was highly influenced by western theatrical dance. I decided I wasn't knowledgable enough about him to classify him on the graph. From what I was told, he'd fit into that circle, but the outside influence triangle needs to have a little branch that pokes into it.


Does that make sense?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Moving on to the next circle, what is "Vintage Oriental"--American Cabaret or the Western attempt to model something after Samia Gamal and her contemporaries (as opposed to Dina and hers)? What's in the non-intersections of the "Belly Dance" circle?

Vintage Orientale is Artemis Mourat's term for American Cabaret. (She argues that the real american cabaret is vegas showgirl dancing.) I've started using VO more often than AmCab, since you could argue that a lot of the BDSS stuff (minus the intentional fusion) could also be considered "American Cabaret", even though it doesn't have that much in common with what we used to mean by "AmCab".

VO refers to a more classic style with a direct lineage to (and natural evolution from) what dancers in the 50s/60s/70s were doing for mixed audiences in the middle eastern clubs in the US.

Originally Posted by indigostars

To add to your "where does this go?" list, where does dance theater go? I've seen ads where what appears to be story told in the context of belly dance. Also, there should be somewhere there a category of non-Middle Eastern influence on belly dance. AFAIK, some of the props are not caused by people from the Middle East.

I'd put that in the (currently unlabeled) space where belly dance and intentional fusion overlap. I'd say that dance theater is a direct, intentional fusion between belly dance (supplying the movements, some of the aesthetic, etc.) and western theatrical dance (supplying the storytelling and theatrical context).

As for the non-ME influence on belly dance, I pictured that as coming through in the wedge shape. Is there an example you can think of that isn't covered by it?

I missed the other threads but this graph is amazing. I can't imagine getting all my thoughts on this together enough to even begin making a graph like this!

Originally Posted by Linnyg

I missed the other threads but this graph is amazing. I can't imagine getting all my thoughts on this together enough to even begin making a graph like this!

Well, I made it after we had been discussing all this for 5 or 6 pages on the original thread. But thanks!

If you want to take a stab at your own classifications, I can see if I still have the word document I made it from. (so you can just drag the text around)

I absolutely adore this diagram.

I realize it's not perfect, and it represents one person's (informed) viewpoint. But it represents a lot more understanding and gives a clearer picture at a glance than many students develop in years of study.


I downloaded it ages ago, with the intention of putting it on my website with Nadira's permission and credit, but work on my website came to an abrupt screeching halt when my desktop system passed away rather suddenly last winter. *moment of silence for all my files*

I'd still love to use it if it's still OK with you, Nadira? I'd like to put it on this page, I think:
Belly Dance Styles - Egyptian, Turkish, Romani, Tribal, American Cabaret, Fokloric

DaVid has diagrams like this too in his books. Takes dancing to an engineering level and goes to show how intelligent this dance is!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

I absolutely adore this diagram.

I realize it's not perfect, and it represents one person's (informed) viewpoint. But it represents a lot more understanding and gives a clearer picture at a glance than many students develop in years of study.


I downloaded it ages ago, with the intention of putting it on my website with Nadira's permission and credit, but work on my website came to an abrupt screeching halt when my desktop system passed away rather suddenly last winter. *moment of silence for all my files*

I'd still love to use it if it's still OK with you, Nadira? I'd like to put it on this page, I think:
Belly Dance Styles - Egyptian, Turkish, Romani, Tribal, American Cabaret, Fokloric

Of course!

I did find the original Word file, so if anybody wants to make their own version that reflects their own worldview, PM me your email address.

Originally Posted by Fotia

DaVid has diagrams like this too in his books. Takes dancing to an engineering level and goes to show how intelligent this dance is!

I have engineering degrees. :)

I'm still thinking about it. I guess I'd prefer to see the distinction "in Public" replaced with "Professionally." Even when something is performed in a social context, it's still "in public," but to me the line is whether it is a group or individual being brought in by virtue of their expertise to entertain versus the crowd participating in the entertainment on a volunteer basis.

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

If I were making the same category for American folk/social dance, it would include everything from the Virginia Reel to the Electric Slide, to what an ordinary American does on the dance floor at a club or their cousin's wedding.

I still want to acknowledge a distinction between "improvised" and "pre-learned/choreographed." I know the line is kind of blurry, but I want something to denote the difference between a dance that is flexible and derived from artistic spontaneity (bopping around to a Tamer Hosni record at a party) as opposed to a debke (where you have to do the same thing as everybody else or you have to get out of the line). Even within Western social dancing, you have that dynamic. There's open dancing, and there's the Electric Slide. Both are voluntary audience participation, but the Electric Slide has specific steps to it. You can opt to do your own dance to that song, but you're not doing the Electric Slide anymore. Even something like square dancing that can be somewhat improvisational on the part of the caller still depends on dancers pre-learning a library of moves that can be called in spontaneous order.

I can't think of anything, but that doesn't mean that there isn't anything there. But empty space on the diagram doesn't mean that there *are* dances that fit there.

Somewhere a Set Theory mathematician is howling in pain...

I would put Goddess Dance & Pharaonic Dance into that part of intentional fusion that is still in the belly dance umbrella. Both are coming out of the belly dance lineage, but they evolved outside of a middle eastern cultural context, and without middle easterners vetting it.

(i.e, you don't see middle easterners presenting pharaonic dance; westerners may be doing good research, but they're recreating the dance from a combination of still images, vague text descriptions, and their mostly western belly dance training.

I could have sworn someone had put a Pharaonic piece in a tableau once. Nagwa Fouad, maybe? Of course, that doesn't mean whoever did it didn't boost the idea from a Hollywood movie, though. It is interesting that Egyptian designers pay lip service to the idea by making Pharaonic-style costume with scarabs and beaded collars and so on. Are they just catering to Western whims, or do they see that as an investment in their own history?

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

And at no point is a middle eastern audience being given the opportunity to say "yes, this fits with our perception of middle eastern dance".)

I know the goddess stuff doesn't go over well with Middle Easterners, but I suspect they are somewhat conflicted on the Pharaonic stuff. On one hand, Egyptians are definitely proud that that was a part of their history, and some of them are willing to go pretty far with the tacky/wacky stuff in the name of making money off tourists, but where is the line for them? That's probably a philosophical discussion that a bunch of Western dancers aren't qualified to discuss in another thread...

It was pointed out to me that Reda was highly influenced by western theatrical dance. I decided I wasn't knowledgable enough about him to classify him on the graph. From what I was told, he'd fit into that circle, but the outside influence triangle needs to have a little branch that pokes into it.

The triangle is going to turn into a star, if you're not careful. There's a lot of Western theatrical influence in all forms of professional presentation of the dance, isn't there? Badia Masabni certainly pulled in a lot of ideas about how to package the dance. Russian ballet stuck its thumb in the pie, too. Those influences were what took the dance from a social activity to an art form.

Are you describing what happens when a middle eastern dancer takes influence from other forms? (i.e., Samia Gamal's latin dance influence?) I would put those somewhere in the point of the triangle. What you would see is belly dance performed by a middle easterner, with non-middle eastern influences. But a middle eastern audience is vetting it and saying "hey, that's a neat innovation to add to this middle eastern belly dance show I'm watching."

I guess I'm looking to see the point of the triangle pierce through into social dancing, because sometimes that's where the native pros are getting their innovations from. Dancers borrow good ideas whenever they find them. I've had a couple of conversations with different people about where the side kicking in some styles of folkloric dance comes from (hard to describe, but it's swinging the lower leg to the outside as part of a preparation for a cross-body kick that shows up in coastal dances). The consensus I keep hearing is that it migrated into native Egyptian social dancing from exposure to Westerners doing the Charleston. Or it may have been a product of Reda's fertile imagination because he decided that his version of Alexandrian sailors ought to riff on the hornpipe because he thought it looked cool. At any rate, famous and non-famous dancers can have access to outside ideas and borrow from each other independently of us.

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

Vintage Orientale is Artemis Mourat's term for American Cabaret. (She argues that the real american cabaret is vegas showgirl dancing.) I've started using VO more often than AmCab, since you could argue that a lot of the BDSS stuff (minus the intentional fusion) could also be considered "American Cabaret", even though it doesn't have that much in common with what we used to mean by "AmCab".

VO refers to a more classic style with a direct lineage to (and natural evolution from) what dancers in the 50s/60s/70s were doing for mixed audiences in the middle eastern clubs in the US.

I thought that's what you meant, but I wasn't sure. There certainly is a "vintage" sense within native ME Orientale itself, although it belongs in the other circle. I guess that begs the question if you don't make the distinction between Taheyya/Samia/et al. "old skool" and Dina and her contemporaries, do you need to call out Vintage Orientale as if it is different from Modern Western Orientale? IMHO, Vintage Western Orientale shows more Turkish influence, where Modern Western has more Egyptian and outside influences.

Incidentally, I'm not that familiar with Turkish dance, but this chart feels biased toward the Arabic styles. I'm sure there must be more to the Turkish evolution than Romany influence in the folkloric sphere. Are there unique aspects and innovations on the Turkish side that need to be worked in?

What do you think about replacing the brackets at the bottom with a line? "<-----More Fusion--------------------More Ethnic----->"

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I'm still thinking about it. I guess I'd prefer to see the distinction "in Public" replaced with "Professionally." Even when something is performed in a social context, it's still "in public," but to me the line is whether it is a group or individual being brought in by virtue of their expertise to entertain versus the crowd participating in the entertainment on a volunteer basis.

I think we're talking about the same thing. When I say "performed in public", I mean that the person doing it has the role of the entertainer. When I say "done in a social context", I mean that the person doing it has the role of a participant in the party (even if the everybody is watching you). What you would do is different.

I still want to acknowledge a distinction between "improvised" and "pre-learned/choreographed." I know the line is kind of blurry, but I want something to denote the difference between a dance that is flexible and derived from artistic spontaneity (bopping around to a Tamer Hosni record at a party) as opposed to a debke (where you have to do the same thing as everybody else or you have to get out of the line). Even within Western social dancing, you have that dynamic. There's open dancing, and there's the Electric Slide. Both are voluntary audience participation, but the Electric Slide has specific steps to it. You can opt to do your own dance to that song, but you're not doing the Electric Slide anymore. Even something like square dancing that can be somewhat improvisational on the part of the caller still depends on dancers pre-learning a library of moves that can be called in spontaneous order.

I think the line is very clear. I didn't bother to separate those two categories (the distinction didn't have much of a bearing on the question I was trying to answer originally, which was "what's belly dance, what's middle eastern dance, and what's neither"), but I completely agree that the distinction exists.

Somewhere a Set Theory mathematician is howling in pain...

That's the great thing about being an engineer; when the distinction makes no practical difference, you get to approximate. :)

It is interesting that Egyptian designers pay lip service to the idea by making Pharaonic-style costume with scarabs and beaded collars and so on. Are they just catering to Western whims, or do they see that as an investment in their own history?

Good question. I remember reading once that, before the european colonization, the Egyptians weren't that interested in their ancient history. They saw it as "pagan" stuff that wasn't relevant to them. I really don't know if there's any truth to that, though.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

The triangle is going to turn into a star, if you're not careful. There's a lot of Western theatrical influence in all forms of professional presentation of the dance, isn't there? Badia Masabni certainly pulled in a lot of ideas about how to package the dance. Russian ballet stuck its thumb in the pie, too.
(SNIP)
I guess I'm looking to see the point of the triangle pierce through into social dancing, because sometimes that's where the native pros are getting their innovations from. Dancers borrow good ideas whenever they find them. I've had a couple of conversations with different people about where the side kicking in some styles of folkloric dance comes from (hard to describe, but it's swinging the lower leg to the outside as part of a preparation for a cross-body kick that shows up in coastal dances). The consensus I keep hearing is that it migrated into native Egyptian social dancing from exposure to Westerners doing the Charleston. Or it may have been a product of Reda's fertile imagination because he decided that his version of Alexandrian sailors ought to riff on the hornpipe because he thought it looked cool. At any rate, famous and non-famous dancers can have access to outside ideas and borrow from each other independently of us.

This is where it gets hard to draw the line. Unless a population is completely isolated, there's always some cross-polination and influence. I decided to draw the line where the influence is strong.

(ex: American dancers learning from the first generation of middle easterners, but bringing their own previous experience of jazz and ballet into it because that was their first experience, or bringing in western ideas of stagecraft because that's what part of their audience expected.)

That's why I chose to have part of the triangle poke into the "middle eastern dance" part of "oriental".


[/QUOTE]

Those influences were what took the dance from a social activity to an art form.

I disagree with you there. There were professional entertainers in Egypt long before western theatrical aesthetics came into play.

And, interestingly, the abstract idea of "Art" (as something higher than "craft" or "entertainment") didn't really exist in Europe before around that same time either. (At least not according to this really interesting article.)

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I guess that begs the question if you don't make the distinction between Taheyya/Samia/et al. "old skool" and Dina and her contemporaries, do you need to call out Vintage Orientale as if it is different from Modern Western Orientale? IMHO, Vintage Western Orientale shows more Turkish influence, where Modern Western has more Egyptian and outside influences.

I didn't break out the Taheyya and Dina generations (or the Najwa/Nadia/Fifi era either, for that matter), since they all fell clearly into the "middle eastern oriental dance" category. Breaking them up didn't help draw the line between "belly dance" and "middle eastern dance", which was the original purpose of the diagram.

As for separating Vintage Orientale and Modern Western, I didn't do that on the diagram either. You certainly could, though, since I think they're diverging.

Vintage Orientale is still being performed in some areas, including Boston. It's not a museum style (there has been some evolution), but it's still pretty similar. But then, we still have clubs that have been open since the 60s and 70s, with some of the same musicians, and even some of the same patrons, so there's continuity to the band/dancer/owner/audience culture.

I think that Modern Western has branched off into its own aesthetic. That's where you start getting the more athletic styles like you see in Suhaila's troupe. It's coming from the same lineage in the family tree, and has a lot in common in terms of moves, aesthetic, etc., but is clearly sprouting its own branch.

And then if you take the focus on athleticism to extreme, you start getting into the BDSS range. (Ignoring all their fusion pieces and the vegas aesthetic for now.) I've been thinking of that extreme as "modern american technique worship" lately. :)

As for Turkish vs. Arabic, I think it really depends on where you were, when, and which clubs you were in. I percieve more Turkish influence here on the east coast thane in, say, California, but my sample is probably skewed. Even so, one of my teachers performed almost exclusively with Arabic musicians (mostly Lebanese). Most dancers in that time period had to be able to perform in multiple styles, but many certainly leaned in one direction or another.

That said, the Arabic influences on VO and MW came from different time periods. The first generation or two of American VO dancers learned from middle easterners who came in the 50s and 60s (and to a lesser extent, in the 70s). Modern Western seems to me to be more influenced by what was current in the 80s when VHS tapes and international travel became more accessible, and dancers got to see what the Egyptians had been doing for the last 20 years or so.

What do you think about replacing the brackets at the bottom with a line? "<-----More Fusion--------------------More Ethnic----->"

For my worldview, the brackets are important. For me, the question of which community is doing the vetting makes the fundamental difference between belly dance and middle eastern dance.

That doesn't mean an axis couldn't be added. When you say "ethnic" do you mean "folkloric" or "coming exclusively from middle eastern culture"? Because I think that it's still possible for a middle eastern artist to invent a form of intentional fusion that doesn't draw on non-middle-eastern dance forms. (ex: if an egyptian dancer decided to mix sufi religious spinning with saidi, it would be all middle eastern, but definitely fusion)


I love getting down to these details! Thanks for asking.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I could have sworn someone had put a Pharaonic piece in a tableau once. Nagwa Fouad, maybe? Of course, that doesn't mean whoever did it didn't boost the idea from a Hollywood movie, though. It is interesting that Egyptian designers pay lip service to the idea by making Pharaonic-style costume with scarabs and beaded collars and so on. Are they just catering to Western whims, or do they see that as an investment in their own history?

I don't have YouTube access at work, or I'd post clips--Egyptians have definitely drawn on Pharaonic sources for inspiration in pagentry, but I'm not sure they fundamentally change their dancing once the music gets going. I'm thinking specifically of a clip of Asmahan from the last two or three years, maybe an Ahlan wa Ahlan show, where she's carried in on a litter surrounded by characters straight off temple walls. There's lots of posing in that entrance, but once she's dancing, she's doing regular Asmahan raqs sharqi.

From what I gather from reading ethnography and novels and watching movies, Egyptians have been a bit conflicted about their ancient history. It's a source of pride but also a reminder that they are no longer a great world force. And of course it's a thoroughly pagan past, the source of superstitions that linger among peasants/fellahi and are distasteful to cultured people. Just my impressions, which may be 30 years or more out of date :-)

Great thread...

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

I disagree with you there. There were professional entertainers in Egypt long before western theatrical aesthetics came into play.

And, interestingly, the abstract idea of "Art" (as something higher than "craft" or "entertainment") didn't really exist in Europe before around that same time either. (At least not according to this really interesting article.)

"Art" is such a volatile concoction of talent, creative energy, and ego, that it seems unbelievable that someone wouldn't have acknowledged it as an abstract concept before the PoMos started debating it. Hasn't humanity always been able to distinguish (at least on some level, albeit without unanimous agreement) who possesses a sublime and/or inspired ability to make "art," as opposed to someone who has a more mundane, workmanlike approach to the same discipline or craft? I can't accept the idea that the human race needed to intellectually invent an ability to judge some creative output as being more intangibly touching, beautiful, or better than others. Art affects people on an emotional level. You don't need analysis and philosophical conceptualizing to appreciate it.

True, there have always been highly skilled professional entertainers in Egypt (and elsewhere), but there is a subtle distinction between being a "craftsman" and an "artisan." Both require a high degree of talent and training, but the latter possesses a sheen of awe and uniqueness that the former doesn't. My understanding of the earlier generations of performers is that they were viewed as sort of tradespeople, often who had a family tradition of being entertainers, much like circus performers in the West. (I'm thinking of the later eras, not back in Pharaonic times. I don't know how one became a professional or court entertainer back then.) I'm not aware that dancers pre-Badia Masabni ever were presented in that better light of being "artisans," and certainly, one of the reasons ballet was invited into the dance was because it was going to bring a Westernized elegance and refinement of carriage that some felt dancers needed to elevate the status of the performance.

It goes without saying that the dance in its homelands still hasn't reached what you'd call "respectability," but it seems that the top dancers of the Golden Age did manage to achieve a standing of ladylike esteem that previous ones hadn't. The transition from "social dancer on stage" to "dance artist" was sort of like the distinction between "prostitute" and "professional escort." Either could do the job, but one had more "class" than the other.

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

As for Turkish vs. Arabic, I think it really depends on where you were, when, and which clubs you were in. I percieve more Turkish influence here on the east coast thane in, say, California, but my sample is probably skewed. Even so, one of my teachers performed almost exclusively with Arabic musicians (mostly Lebanese). Most dancers in that time period had to be able to perform in multiple styles, but many certainly leaned in one direction or another.

Yes, there were (and still are) enclaves in the US where traditional Turkish style and Turkish-biased Western Orientale continued to thrive, but elsewhere, Egyptian style sort of ran it out of business, and then Tribal came in and finished it off. I think within the last few years, there has been a resurgence of interest in Turkish style, partially driven by a corresponding resurgence in rediscovering the original American hybrid styles. I was thinking more of Turkish dance in Turkey, not here, though.

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

For my worldview, the brackets are important. For me, the question of which community is doing the vetting makes the fundamental difference between belly dance and middle eastern dance.

Looking at the diagram as an outsider, I was reading it as if that information was sufficiently contained in the circle headings.

That doesn't mean an axis couldn't be added. When you say "ethnic" do you mean "folkloric" or "coming exclusively from middle eastern culture"? Because I think that it's still possible for a middle eastern artist to invent a form of intentional fusion that doesn't draw on non-middle-eastern dance forms. (ex: if an egyptian dancer decided to mix sufi religious spinning with saidi, it would be all middle eastern, but definitely fusion)

I hate to use "folkloric," because I know a lot of dancers hear that and think "galabeya or thobe." "Ethnic" to me is more like "authentically originating in that culture." Something like sha'abi music with a street singer and a lot of electronic keyboard and a dancer in a Spandex minidress is very indigenously Egyptian now, but that just doesn't seem "folkloric," and admittedly, not particularly "ethnic," to a lot of dance students. (I suppose you could argue the electronics and the dancer's costume aren't strictly home grown, but we can't expect them to be living like they're stuck in a tomb painting. Their culture evolves, too.)

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

I have engineering degrees. :)

Lucky for us!! Brains, beauty and bellydance!!

I'm going to disappear for a bit (probably at least a day), but I'm not ignoring you! (Highly sleep-deprived, and then packed weekend.)

I think my brain just exploded.

Originally Posted by Linnyg

I think my brain just exploded.

..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,

Sorry, just catching up:

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

"Art" is such a volatile concoction of talent, creative energy, and ego, that it seems unbelievable that someone wouldn't have acknowledged it as an abstract concept before the PoMos started debating it. Hasn't humanity always been able to distinguish (at least on some level, albeit without unanimous agreement) who possesses a sublime and/or inspired ability to make "art," as opposed to someone who has a more mundane, workmanlike approach to the same discipline or craft? I can't accept the idea that the human race needed to intellectually invent an ability to judge some creative output as being more intangibly touching, beautiful, or better than others. Art affects people on an emotional level. You don't need analysis and philosophical conceptualizing to appreciate it.

I don't think the author was implying that there wasn't art. My understanding is that it was understood as skill in the service of aesthetic beauty, entertainment,and/or the stimulation of religious devotion. i.e., that the idea of some higher thing called "Art" that could exist in the absence of those things was an idea that came out of the focus on individualism of the western Enlightenment.