Thread: Geography of American Cabaret

Completely random question, but I am doing a talk and dance demonstration this week. The talk is on different dance styles. I'm covering a lot of folkloric stuff as well as Egyptian and Turkish Oriental. I was thinking about my section on ATS and Vintage Oriental/American Cabaret and was wondering if if, like ATS it was originally associated with any particular locations in the US.

Or did it evolve fairly organically accross the board?

I was just curious after thinking about the ATS - San Francisco connection.

I always got the impression that Oriental dance in America grew up out of metropolitan hubs, like LA, SanFrancisco, Detroit, Chicago, New York & DC and other larger cities with lots of immigrants.

I think if you take a look at the dancers from each area, they developed different styles in each region, some of which you still see influencing many of the artists in those areas.

Have you checked out Michelle Forner's thesis "The Transmission of Oriental Dance in the United States"

Michelle Forner-Oriental Dance

It is worth a read on this subject.

Originally Posted by shems

I always got the impression that Oriental dance in America grew up out of metropolitan hubs, like LA, SanFrancisco, Detroit, Chicago, New York & DC and other larger cities with lots of immigrants.

I think if you take a look at the dancers from each area, they developed different styles in each region, some of which you still see influencing many of the artists in those areas.

Have you checked out Michelle Forner's thesis "The Transmission of Oriental Dance in the United States"

Michelle Forner-Oriental Dance

It is worth a read on this subject.

This is my observation as well. I was in NYC in late 60s...to a teen with a beatnik older sister taking me around to the 8th ave clubs [I.D. /SHM-I.D. - mature for my age :-)], it was intoxicating!..g.:
Above mentioned book very good documentation of U.S. B.D.history!

There's also an element to the evolution that has to do with how fast the information current flows through different parts of the country. The Internet has certainly helped to distribute stylistic information more efficiently, but I think you still see that areas off the beaten path tend to get somewhat locked into the era and style the "matriarchal" teacher learned (or teacher's teacher learned...), which can give some communities the feeling that they are suspended at particular points in time. This isn't entirely bad, though. It's one of the ways dance ethnologists can trace the development of the styles.

When I was a brand-new belly baby (in the '80s), I occasionally heard mention of an East Coast style and a West Coast style of belly dance. I don't remember what that's supposed to have meant -- I think at the time I didn't know enough to understand the difference, and by the time I had learned enough to get it, I never heard these terms anymore. Anybody familiar with this style distinction?

Originally Posted by JeanneLF

When I was a brand-new belly baby (in the '80s), I occasionally heard mention of an East Coast style and a West Coast style of belly dance. I don't remember what that's supposed to have meant -- I think at the time I didn't know enough to understand the difference, and by the time I had learned enough to get it, I never heard these terms anymore. Anybody familiar with this style distinction?

At the risk of oversimplifying and insulting folks, my understanding was that while both styles were rooted in the ethnic nightclub scene, the East Coast had a burgeoning ethnographic angle, driven by people like Morocco and Bobby Farrah who wanted to do scholarly research on the dance and keep it "authentic," whereas the West Coast scene took the same ethnic-nightclub foundation and layered on an emphasis about theatrics and artistic self expression, courtesy of dancers like Jamila Salimpour and Bert Balladine. Both camps had some of all of these aspects, so it wasn't an either/or situation, and cross-pollinating did occur. There was probably also a slight bias in terms of the ethnic populations that dancers on opposite coasts encountered, which would have affected their development, too.

Originally Posted by JeanneLF

When I was a brand-new belly baby (in the '80s), I occasionally heard mention of an East Coast style and a West Coast style of belly dance. I don't remember what that's supposed to have meant -- I think at the time I didn't know enough to understand the difference, and by the time I had learned enough to get it, I never heard these terms anymore. Anybody familiar with this style distinction?

Yes, I used to hear it as well. There were very few teachers anywhere pre 1970's or so, & mostly concentrated in large urban areas. [Not saying NONE, just not very many] The teachers that were accessible had their own styles already developed by the time they starting teaching, from learning from the previous generation of immigrants, & then of course continuing their own exploration of "la danse orientale", traveling to lands of origin, etc. Since I am from NYC, I think of Morocco, Serena Wilson; Bobby Farrah & his proteges such as Jajouka, Phaedra; who were available with which to study, [and others I would have to look up; do not come to mind immediately]. So our teachers were influenced by them, and in turn influenced my generation. My experience is that East Coast was originally more impacted by Turkish, Lebanese, & Syrian musicians & dancers than was West Coast. When the Golden Age Movies of Egypt, as well as current TV variety shows, on vid became available to us in the 80's, it was a whole new world!
Not sure of early immigrant West Coast influences actually; I know there is a "Little Tehran" area in LA, but San Fran - not sure of 1st generation influences on Jamila Salimpour for example.
Someone on Bhuz probably does though... Interesting thread.

I've got old Habibis upstairs from the early '80s; both Jamila and Serena had regular columns. Just a few quick points that both clarify and muddy:

1. Jamila didn't start ATS. Or dance it.

2. She DID marry a Middle Eastern musician named Salimpour that she met while dancing, so there must have been some kind of ethnic scene!

3. Dancers move! That is, my own primary instructor learned from Badawia of Jordan on the West coast (so did Hadia-there's that west coast thing again..l;,)but she moved to Maine in the mid 70s. So, did I learn East or West? And there was a tremendous difference-at least in the beginning-between Morocco's and Serena's approach.

I'm not sure any real generalities are possible! I used to believe in the East/West coast thing, but now I think that the differences were more from individual teachers than from the area. Both coasts were rich in resources. And even then, in the days before internet and DVDs, there were workshops. I used to travel to Boston and St John even back in the '80s to learn from dancers from away.

About the only generality I can come up with is that if you learned from Badawia at some point I'll know!

I was under the imression it began in the Chicago, Illinois haflas ....
: illinois haflas system sucks

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(HMMMM, couldn't get the "famous map" to come up here ......)


legend: green = area of hafla suckage

(Sorry, just kidding, but couldn't resist ...... that thread will live on forever ...)

Originally Posted by kahaz

I've got old Habibis upstairs from the early '80s; both Jamila and Serena had regular columns. Just a few quick points that both clarify and muddy:

1. Jamila didn't start ATS. Or dance it.

2. She DID marry a Middle Eastern musician named Salimpour that she met while dancing, so there must have been some kind of ethnic scene!

3. Dancers move! That is, my own primary instructor learned from Badawia of Jordan on the West coast (so did Hadia-there's that west coast thing again..l;,)but she moved to Maine in the mid 70s. So, did I learn East or West? And there was a tremendous difference-at least in the beginning-between Morocco's and Serena's approach.

I'm not sure any real generalities are possible! I used to believe in the East/West coast thing, but now I think that the differences were more from individual teachers than from the area. Both coasts were rich in resources. And even then, in the days before internet and DVDs, there were workshops. I used to travel to Boston and St John even back in the '80s to learn from dancers from away.

About the only generality I can come up with is that if you learned from Badawia at some point I'll know!

Yes! Badawia - heard so much about her over the years, lucky you!
In my reminiscing above post above, I was mostly thinking about the pre-workshop days. After workshops became more prevalent in the 80's - what a treat those field trips were!
I always read of Jamila re: Persian husband threatening to break both her legs if she ever performed in public again! She also talks about that in "American Belllydancer" !
I still have my yellowing old Habibis & still refer to them! I liked the glossy new one too, I wish it was still around.
Remember Serena's husband Rip's column in the old ones? what a hoot!
Amaya's column...Bert Balladine sure was a big influence on West Coast...
I agree, generalizing can be dangerous..now I do wonder where East Coast / West Coast came from, the term definitely floated around...Maybe we East Coasters started it cuz we are so competitive?!..g.: Maybe it's just another Belly Dance Urban Legend..l;,
*When I saw #3. "Dancers move!" - my first image was of a dancer moving to music..l;, Yeah, we move it!

Originally Posted by shems

I always got the impression that Oriental dance in America grew up out of metropolitan hubs, like LA, SanFrancisco, Detroit, Chicago, New York & DC and other larger cities with lots of immigrants.

Don't forget Boston, home of George Abdo! ..g.:..g.:..g.:

...

Here in Detroit, we didn't really follow any trends or "American" teachers until fairly recently. Because we had a large immigrant population we relied on the musicians and singers who frequently went back home on visits to keep us up to date on music etc. Clubs also flew in big name singers on occassion like Sabah. Every once in awhile they'd bring over a dancer from Egypt.

We did view with amusement what was happening on the West Coast. Those crazy Californians! We used to say. We saw a lot of ballet, modern dance influence in those dancers and that style of dancing just didn't fly in the real ethnic clubs.

There is a facebook group called 1970's Belly Dance in case you are interested.

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Originally Posted by norma

Here in Detroit, we didn't really follow any trends or "American" teachers until fairly recently. Because we had a large immigrant population we relied on the musicians and singers who frequently went back home on visits to keep us up to date on music etc. Clubs also flew in big name singers on occassion like Sabah. Every once in awhile they'd bring over a dancer from Egypt.

We did view with amusement what was happening on the West Coast. Those crazy Californians! We used to say. We saw a lot of ballet, modern dance influence in those dancers and that style of dancing just didn't fly in the real ethnic clubs.

There is a facebook group called 1970's Belly Dance in case you are interested.

Welcome to Facebook | Facebook

Wow! Now I really have to get with computer + photos to post my vintage pics! Norma you R so cool! Love your perspective and insight

Thanks for this everyone - just want to say that the talk went fabulously and I was really happy to be able to say a bit more about the origins of this style.

Got lots of positive feedback - audience were fascinated ..g.:. I tailored it to their needs but didn't dumb down! Yay!

Originally Posted by dollydaydream

Sorry, slightly off topic, but I'm curious about the origins of belly dancing in restaurants and was wondering if it came about the same way?

In the States it definitely arose from Middle Eastern club and restaurants (that is if you ignore actual Middle Easterners dancing at home). There was also an early influence of fantasy dance from Ruth St Denis - Serena Wilson's early influence was Ruth St Denis for example. But mostly US born dancers (tap, ballet, flamenco) were drawn to the clubs who needed dancers and learnt on the job. Morocco has described the process a number of times - six nights a week from 9:30pm-4:30am (Tarik abd el Malik (1994). Following her Soul – Raks Sharki, Serendipity and Morocco. Habibi 13(3) )

What happened on the West Coast was Jamila - originally a straight club dancer. She had already been teaching for 18 years when she switched to the Bal Anat hippy tribal/ethnic dance. This divorcing the dance from its roots - gently at first but more thoroughly by Masha Archer and later Delilah -I think is what makes west coast style so diffeent from east coast. (There are exceptions Aisha Ali stayed close to the roots and Shareen el Safy discovered Egyptian). But as a gross generalization west coast added the goddess, east coast stayed truer but added artistic flair.

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

Don't forget Boston, home of George Abdo! ..g.:..g.:..g.:

The first middle eastern club in the US was in Boston. Amy Smith is working on a documentary about that, in fact. If you're interested, I'll bet she'd give you more information.

Although, to be fair to the californians, Mahmoud Reda added ballet to Egyptian long ago.

Originally Posted by norma

We did view with amusement what was happening on the West Coast. Those crazy Californians! We used to say. We saw a lot of ballet, modern dance influence in those dancers and that style of dancing just didn't fly in the real ethnic clubs.

The Detroit and New York scene sounds a lot like Sydney. There is a heavy Lebanese influence over hear and anything outside authentic middle eastern styles wouldn't go down well in the clubs. This has been mentioned to before but around these parts, anything that does not fit into a traditional middle eastern style or looks heavily fusioned we generally classify it as "American Style". Maybe we should call it Californian style?

Sydney does have it's weird fusions but it's still within Middle Eastern styles. It's very common to see Egyptian Saidi danced to a Lebanese Dabke song in a Lebanese night club or a fast Egpytian cabaret style to Turkish pop music in a Turkish restaurant. The main style taught here is Egpytian even though the main audience is Lebanese. Maybe because the Lebanese were use to seeing big name dancers from Egypt.

Sydney does have it's weird fusions but it's still within Middle Eastern styles. It's very common to see Egyptian Saidi danced to a Lebanese Dabke song in a Lebanese night club or a fast Egpytian cabaret style to Turkish pop music in a Turkish restaurant. The main style taught here is Egpytian even though the main audience is Lebanese. Maybe because the Lebanese were use to seeing big name dancers from Egypt.

Yes, in Detroit we have a huge Greek, Lebanese, Palestinian, Chaldean, Tunisian, Armenian population. In the Greek clubs, which no longer exist, they catered to all nationalities. The remaining Arabic clubs tend to be country specific but the main music is Egyptian with of course influences from other popular songs from other countries.

Isn't this a fabulous topic? I hope someone tackles this subject thoroughly in a book sometime... I was an '80's baby too & the "quick & dirty" explanation of East vs West Coast style was East coast = Egyptian or "more realistic" I guess you could say; West coast = ethnic/tribal fantasy.
As I remember one Egyptian-style workshop instructor saying about west coast dancers, "Some of them even wear facial tattoos!!" which was incredibly shocking at the time, like "huh?" ..l;,

I'm not saying it's correct, just what I heard -

Originally Posted by JeanneLF

When I was a brand-new belly baby (in the '80s), I occasionally heard mention of an East Coast style and a West Coast style of belly dance. I don't remember what that's supposed to have meant -- I think at the time I didn't know enough to understand the difference, and by the time I had learned enough to get it, I never heard these terms anymore. Anybody familiar with this style distinction?

To my knowledge and following immigration patterns of Middle Easterners to the US, it started on the East Coast-New York and Boston then spread to Chicago and Detroit then LA.

From LA Jamila Salimpour took it to the Bay area-it was pretty unheard of there. Yes she did marry a Persian man who, from my understanding made her stop dancing, so he was no influence there. ATS cdeveloped from the ethnic stuff Jamila was doing. You should read her bio!!

Originally Posted by roxxanne

From LA Jamila Salimpour took it to the Bay area-it was pretty unheard of there. Yes she did marry a Persian man who, from my understanding made her stop dancing, so he was no influence there. ATS cdeveloped from the ethnic stuff Jamila was doing. You should read her bio!!

What I never realized is there was 20 years between when Jamila started dancing professionally as a "normal" belly dancer in clubs and when she developed Bal Anat. In the meantime she also taught for most of that time and put out books etc on straight belly dance.

Jamila has done some amazing things and has contributed to our dance in more ways that one can explain!

I've also read that Eddie Kochek, along with another American born ME partner (sorry, I just can't remember his name!) started the cabaret style clubs in Brooklyn in the 50s (as well as George Abdo in the 70s) which attracted people from the different ME and Mediterranean backgrounds. His music was a mix of the ME sounds and the dancers' styles as well.

Wish I could tell you more.

Originally Posted by Fotia

I've also read that Eddie Kochek, along with another American born ME partner (sorry, I just can't remember his name!) started the cabaret style clubs in Brooklyn in the 50s (as well as George Abdo in the 70s) which attracted people from the different ME and Mediterranean backgrounds. His music was a mix of the ME sounds and the dancers' styles as well.

Wish I could tell you more.

Here's Eddie's bio Biography (his partner was Hakki Obadia, BTW), and the liner notes from George's Smithsonian Folkways album can be downloaded here Smithsonian Folkways - Belly Dance!: The Best of George Abdo and His Flames of Araby Orchestra - George Abdo.

Thanks Tourbeau.

Thank the internet(especially YouTube)for spreading the style because many dancers in Europe have discovered AmCab!

For example american veil style,finger cymbals and floorwork has gained in popularity here:)