Thread: A Lament? Trying Not to Whine...

Retro oldskool /Turkish wave reaching peak and just about to break all over BD with a big refreshing sweep! Boooosh!

It's going to happen, and soon.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Retro oldskool /Turkish wave reaching peak and just about to break all over BD with a big refreshing sweep! Boooosh!

It's going to happen, and soon.

Yay! I can be in fashion again!

Deborah

I only choreograph for my students. When it comes to my personal performance I improve the whole time every time. I have zero idea what I am going to do even in the drum solo. I love to wing it! All I know is what song I'm dancing to and what I'm wearing.
I just can't remember choreography on stage!
So this is a good discussion and we shall see what we see on the Queen Mary this year. Hopefully something really good and less troupes smearing fusion all over the place.

Originally Posted by Michelle75

I'm going to have a go at this as well. It seems that more dancers today are relying on the drum solo as the main part of their performance (don't get me wrong, I know there are some folks who still do an entire show) and this is why it seems so disconnected from the Egyptian style I think you are refering to. Drum solos take alot of choreography and that leaves little to zero room for personal interpretation.

Also, as mentioned above the over use of choreography in general. I'm not saying it's bad b/c it can be helpful and beautiful BUT there has to be a line for a dancer to see and not cross it. She must no when to let HERSELF take control of the dance and when to inject choreography. With that said, I take into consideration the scene in Egypt right now where everyone is PAYING for choreography by Randa, Raqia, Khaled, etc...... It's the "THING" right now. Hopefully, it will change back to the days when a dancer just got on stage and danced to the music the orchestra played for her. Crosses fingers!!

Originally Posted by eshtabellydance

All I know is what song I'm dancing to and what I'm wearing. I just can't remember choreography on stage!

I suffer from CRS (can't remember s***) and directional dyslexia. Choreography is a total pain. I always feel like I'm taking the easy way out by improvising.

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Of course you don't!

Most songs I know by sound, not by title; and that's true across all genres of music, not just ME. .w.:

Deborah

You are not alone.

Originally Posted by eshtabellydance

I only choreograph for my students. When it comes to my personal performance I improve the whole time every time. I have zero idea what I am going to do even in the drum solo. I love to wing it! All I know is what song I'm dancing to and what I'm wearing.
I just can't remember choreography on stage!

Yipee! This is me too! ..l;,

Originally Posted by Michelle75

Drum solos take alot of choreography and that leaves little to zero room for personal interpretation.

I think you really hit on something here. But I think this approach to dance is part of what is generating the "movements to music" rather than "dance". It seems that in many dances, not just drum solos, the most important goal it to generate a series of intracate combinations that are executed perfectly - to me, this is movements to music, more like a trick than dance. Dance expresses something - emotions and personallity - which together with movements create dance. Sometimes it is more important to do something simple.

Though perhaps my definition of dance is too narrow. A lot of modern and ballet feels like just movements - perhaps abstract on purpose. But my favorites are always the ones that move me, eg. Alvin Alley's Revelations!! Heading down the abstract movement path is not some place I would enjoy seeing belly dance go!

I dunno - maybe the American audience prefers to be impressed rather than moved?

My 2 cents

Boy it is late - hope that made sense!
Meredith

"Drum solos take a lot of choreography"

This is exactly why many students and even pros perform terribly dull drum solos. With songs and rhythms remembered by heart rather than felt, and an iron ambition to not miss more than five beats over the entire song..
If people were to watch some Mona Said, Amani or Samara drum solos - they'd see there is SO much room for relaxation, tease, style, charm. Watch Mona dance with relaxation and a lovely African vibe to the drum, or Amani tease her audience by NOT hitting every beat over the entire song - rather building up momentum to then for a certain time be on beat exactly and amaze the audience whose attention and excitement she built up rather than exhausted over the entire drum solo.

as long as abdominal work is used as an accent rather than a "main feature." Delilah's a great example of a dancer who uses abdominal articulations tastefully and expressively, rather than rolling quarters or any of that stuff.

Yes, they are legitimate, its just the attitude about to how to use them which often seems to err towards the 'more, more, more' approach rather than about how to express the music.

Just my two pennies but I think a lot of this comes from an attitude that 'The Rhythm is King' regardless of all other considerations. While its certainly an essential element (and watching dancers who are not in time is jarring to say the least) I sometimes wonder what's happened to interpreting all those other luscious elements of the music. For me a dance should have a heartbeat, but it should also have flesh, organs, face, a 'whole body' if you see what I mean.

Most combination workshops I've ever attended have been purely rhythm focussed. I'm not knocking this - its amazingly, amazingly useful, but I do wonder about what sort of wider message it gives. Are we saying 'All you need to do is identify the rhythm and then wheel out x-step followed by y-lock and z-pop'? If so, are we asking students to look at the music only in terms of rhythm? Maybe; maybe not, but I wonder.

I watch the 'greats' of yesteryear and sometimes wonder what happened to all that soft, flowing, connected expression.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Retro oldskool /Turkish wave reaching peak and just about to break all over BD with a big refreshing sweep! Boooosh!

It's going to happen, and soon.

Ah the retro-revolution starts here HIP HIP.....g.:

Originally Posted by Meredith

I think you really hit on something here. But I think this approach to dance is part of what is generating the "movements to music" rather than "dance". It seems that in many dances, not just drum solos, the most important goal it to generate a series of intracate combinations that are executed perfectly - to me, this is movements to music, more like a trick than dance. Dance expresses something - emotions and personallity - which together with movements create dance. Sometimes it is more important to do something simple.

Some dancers do seem fascinated with the paradox of being both complicated and boring. It might be quite impressive that you've mastered the muscular control do to three solid minutes of elaborate tricks, but it really isn't that interesting to watch. The dance is supposed to look effortless. It's supposed to be entertaining. Your audience is not supposed to have to concentrate on you like a "Where's Waldo?" picture to appreciate the intricacy of what you're packing into it. We are not amused. Actually, we're fatigued just watching at you, and we wonder if you understand what the real point of this is or if you only comprehend it on the most superficial of levels.

Originally Posted by dinavienna

If people were to watch some Mona Said, Amani or Samara drum solos - they'd see there is SO much room for relaxation, tease, style, charm. Watch Mona dance with relaxation and a lovely African vibe to the drum, or Amani tease her audience by NOT hitting every beat over the entire song - rather building up momentum to then for a certain time be on beat exactly and amaze the audience whose attention and excitement she built up rather than exhausted over the entire drum solo.

I think the difference is that native dancers approach drum solos as if they are SONGS, not sequences of rhythms. Western dancers often seem to forget that there is still a melodic structure with evolving dynamics and mood in a drum solo, even if no other instruments are playing. I wonder is some of this doesn't come from the same mind set that produces the "If a qanun is playing, you have to shimmy" style rules. Maybe you want to shimmy if the drummer is playing a lot of fast, running fingerwork--but maybe you don't. Maybe it's more visually appealing if you hit the major accents for a while and skip the embellishment beats now and then. Drum solos are still music. If you want to have real depth of feeling in them, you can't approach them like you're following a recipe in a cookbook.

Originally Posted by khadiya

Yes, they are legitimate, its just the attitude about to how to use them which often seems to err towards the 'more, more, more' approach rather than about how to express the music.

Yes, and very often it is the "look what I can do ain't I amazing!" approach, too!

As for the rhythm: Interestingly, there seems to be a bit of disagreement within Arab communities here, too. When an (older generation) relative and his wife I went to visit instructed me on dance a bit when they noticed I was so into it - they said one needs to dance to the rhythm, period. They felt very strongly about this, and kept correcting me. They're Jordanian, and spent many years in Lebanon. I later heard from many many Lebanese the same thing, which every time puzzled me because I felt it was legitimate to dance to the violin melody or so, too. And I was especially puzzled since many many Egyptians jump from melody diving to drum dancing in their dance. It seems to be in the Lebanon/Jordan region people have more of the mindset the dancer dances to the rhythm, period.
I later saw contemporary dancers on Lebanese tv differently from this insight I personally got: Most of them do dance to the rhythm no matter what. Amani and others do embrace the melodies sometimes, but many of the less iconic dancers who have very little "Egypt" in their dance go through the whole song sticking with the rhythm exclusively.

True, Tourbeau, I believe you are right in that many Egyptians or Lebanese approach the dance more as another kind of song and music, while for many non Arab dancers it seems to scream "showtime"!

Originally Posted by eshtabellydance

I only choreograph for my students. When it comes to my personal performance I improve the whole time every time. I have zero idea what I am going to do even in the drum solo. I love to wing it! All I know is what song I'm dancing to and what I'm wearing.
I just can't remember choreography on stage!
So this is a good discussion and we shall see what we see on the Queen Mary this year. Hopefully something really good and less troupes smearing fusion all over the place.

You my dear, are the type of dancer that makes my heart melt when watching a peformance I love to listen to the music and watch how a dancer portrays that in a whim and in the moment. It's so relaxing and I don't feel like I already know what the end will be. ..l;,

Originally Posted by Meredith

Dance expresses something - emotions and personallity - which together with movements create dance. Sometimes it is more important to do something simple.
Meredith

This is the essense of any dance and I think you stated it well. I just wish it was more mainstream; verses the "I've got to hit every single beat and every single melody at the same time, NOW!

With my previous posts I DON'T want to come across as NOT liking drum solos b/c they are fun and refreshing, I guess the more expeirenced dancer in me is lifting her nose and being snooty b/c she is more moved my a soft and well balanced performance, more than an electrifying drum solo. I need to rein her in and just be happy I am able to appreciate such wonderfulness when it comes along.

Originally Posted by dinavienna

As for the rhythm: Interestingly, there seems to be a bit of disagreement within Arab communities here, too. When an (older generation) relative and his wife I went to visit instructed me on dance a bit when they noticed I was so into it - they said one needs to dance to the rhythm, period. They felt very strongly about this, and kept correcting me. They're Jordanian, and spent many years in Lebanon. I later heard from many many Lebanese the same thing, which every time puzzled me because I felt it was legitimate to dance to the violin melody or so, too. And I was especially puzzled since many many Egyptians jump from melody diving to drum dancing in their dance. It seems to be in the Lebanon/Jordan region people have more of the mindset the dancer dances to the rhythm, period.
I later saw contemporary dancers on Lebanese tv differently from this insight I personally got: Most of them do dance to the rhythm no matter what. Amani and others do embrace the melodies sometimes, but many of the less iconic dancers who have very little "Egypt" in their dance go through the whole song sticking with the rhythm exclusively.

For every person who says, "Why aren't you dancing to the rhythm all the time?", there is probably a complementary person asking "Why aren't you dancing to the melody more often?" Some of it may just be their personal preference, and you have to do what feels right to you--within reason. If the music is moving you to pick up the melodic phrasing, but not at the expense of losing where the beat is, I can't imagine how this could be universally wrong. It certainly seems obvious that someone who dances only to the rhythm at the expense of the melodic construction of the song ("I'm going to do twelve counts of this, even though it's an eight-count phrase") isn't someone to be held up as an example of good dancing. The melody and the rhythm work together, and the dance should coexist pleasantly with them.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

For every person who says, "Why aren't you dancing to the rhythm all the time?", there is probably a complementary person asking "Why aren't you dancing to the melody more often?"

True. And one also needs to take into account many native Arabs think by blood and education they know it all about the dance - often particularly the elderly men. While they sure are a fabulously experienced and cultured audience to judge your quality as a dancer, and I'd listen to their opinion a lot if I were to perform since that generation with their greater appreciation for the dance from Golden days is a great measure for how your performance trully will be judged from a favorable/educated perspective: Still, most of these opinion leaders as audience members have never taken music theory or dance practices. So their opinions need to be taken with a grain of salt, as with anybody's on a lot of issues I guess. In very few areas absolute truths can exist by definition, anyway..

And you are right - like with ask 3 lawyers and get 4 differing opinions, people who know a lot about the dance or appreciate it a lot not necessarily agree with each other on what it is supposed to be. They may in fact tell you totally opposite views, and both claim to be 100% right.

Also, interestingly, my relative tried to "coach" rather than teach me and specifically referred to it as "sport". that puzzled me, too - sure there is art in some sports like ice skating or ice dance, and there is sport in many art forms like any dance. But I still feel dance is at least 80% art, and 20% sport. at least for me. He would not let me contradict though ..l;,
Maybe he meant at the beginning you have to approach it more as a sport, which I could agree on. At first it has to be technique, muscles, stamina, strength. For being able to express something you'd have to have the foundation first. Else you'd just be freestylin with some influences of oriental dance depending on your natural skill level

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Some dancers do seem fascinated with the paradox of being both complicated and boring. It might be quite impressive that you've mastered the muscular control do to three solid minutes of elaborate tricks, but it really isn't that interesting to watch. The dance is supposed to look effortless. It's supposed to be entertaining. Your audience is not supposed to have to concentrate on you like a "Where's Waldo?" picture to appreciate the intricacy of what you're packing into it. We are not amused. Actually, we're fatigued just watching at you, and we wonder if you understand what the real point of this is or if you only comprehend it on the most superficial of levels.

I agree. Personally, the reason it gets boring is because it becomes monotonous. Ticking away as fast as possible becomes visually and emotionally stale. My favorite songs and dances have change ups, builds, falls, and breaks both in movement and expression. It goes some where!!

As for the rhythm: Interestingly, there seems to be a bit of disagreement within Arab communities here, too. When an (older generation) relative and his wife I went to visit instructed me on dance a bit when they noticed I was so into it - they said one needs to dance to the rhythm, period. They felt very strongly about this, and kept correcting me. They're Jordanian, and spent many years in Lebanon. I later heard from many many Lebanese the same thing, which every time puzzled me because I felt it was legitimate to dance to the violin melody or so, too. And I was especially puzzled since many many Egyptians jump from melody diving to drum dancing in their dance.

That's interesting. My background is pretty much purely Egyptian and I've always been taught (but such noteables as Bhuz's own Kharis) that the ability to respond to both the melody and the drums in one piece of music and to make appropriate, expressive choices about when to do so are the mark of a good dancer

I agree with all the comments about excessive reliance on choreography. This is something that has been bugging me for a long time, in many aspects. Too many teachers who place too much emphasis on having their students learn choreographies, to the point that they are completely reliant on choreo and are too terrified to dance without it. Too many performers who focus on making every detail planned to perfection (even if it ends up being really dull).

What really burns my toast is that so many workshops taught by famous performers end up being nothing but spending the day learning a choreography. If I'm going to spend a lot of money on a rare opportunity to spend four hours studying with someone I've longed to learn from and am seldom able to see, I want to have some of their accumulated wisdom/style/insight etc. imparted to me -- not just learn yet another routine that I'll never use anyway.

I agree with all of JeanneLF's points.

Not to mention, if a client is hiring me to brighten up their party, then I'll do everything I can to make their guests feel special and entertained. Improv allows me to dance confidently, while freeing up every potential opportunity to make eye contact, draw people in, and troubleshoot the minor snafu's that can happen when you're performing in the middle of a crowded space.

Every time I've attempted to utilize choreography, I've ditched it because something more "interesting" came up. Like a money shower, mid-drum solo. Or a curious golden retriever. Or a teenage boy upstaging me in front of his friends.

This is the stuff most paying audiences remember, not the way we hit that "tek-a-doum" in the drum solo!

Mmm. I don't know. There's bad/boring dancing everywhere & trends that swallow communities whole. But I'm not about to play a dirge for the form. Its all about preference.

I agree that there's been a bit of a trend towards a more muscular & complexly isolationy (Yeah I made that up!) style in many BD communities. You can attribute it to the big trend of dub-step/break-beat style of Tribal Fusion & to the prevalence of Jazz-style training of some big-name instructors. But its not all like that... I just came back from two different weekends in Houston & Austin & I assure you that the relaxed, sensual style of BD is still kickin'.

You don't get to be that kind of dancer without opportunities to perform for an audience and in a venue that can showcase that though. What plays well on an intimate stage isn't what works in a crowded restaurant etc etc.

In any case, choreo & improv both have their place in a dancer's toolkit. I like both.

Drum solos are a special challenge. Tourbeau you are right about how many drum solos can crash & burn. I am working on myself to be less twitchy when the drums come on. I happen to like popping & locking but I don't want to frighten an audience either!

Originally Posted by shimarella

What plays well on an intimate stage isn't what works in a crowded restaurant etc etc.

This is soooo true and I need to remind myself of this sometimes when I feel myself being down on a dancer.

Great point Shimarella!

....

Originally Posted by JeanneLF

What really burns my toast is that so many workshops taught by famous performers end up being nothing but spending the day learning a choreography. If I'm going to spend a lot of money on a rare opportunity to spend four hours studying with someone I've longed to learn from and am seldom able to see, I want to have some of their accumulated wisdom/style/insight etc. imparted to me -- not just learn yet another routine that I'll never use anyway.

Choreography workshops don't bother me so much now that I've let go of the idea that I have to come away with a performable routine. I figure it's like being that dancer for a day, and you get to experience the music the way it feels to them. I don't get as much out of the drum solo workshops, though. It seems like it's harder to disassemble a drum solo into useful combinations, and the class often gets sidetracked with practicing tricks, when the teacher ought to be honest that it took her weeks (if not months) to master that particular sequence of isolations, and it isn't going to be happening for anybody in that room in the next hour. That kind of dancing should be homework, not workshop content.

.....

all I know is after a performance little old arabic ladies come up to me and say " oh it was so wonderful to see you it reminded me of when I was a child in Alexandria blah blah blah"
Make me feel soooooo good! I could just kiss them!
And at festivals people come up to me and say it was so nice to see the egyptian style. So that tells me the revolution is needed!
And I don't think the comments are about my ability as a dancer but about the desire of the audience to see the style.

Originally Posted by khadiya

That's interesting. My background is pretty much purely Egyptian and I've always been taught (but such noteables as Bhuz's own Kharis) that the ability to respond to both the melody and the drums in one piece of music and to make appropriate, expressive choices about when to do so are the mark of a good dancer

That s interesting indeed - while I have not heard this expressly, I had the unspoken impression from all Egyptian dancers I saw on film. I think this response to both melody and drum is what I wanted to say with "switching" between melody and drum..

Originally Posted by shimarella

Mmm. I don't know. There's bad/boring dancing everywhere & trends that swallow communities whole. But I'm not about to play a dirge for the form. Its all about preference.

I agree that there's been a bit of a trend towards a more muscular & complexly isolationy (Yeah I made that up!) style in many BD communities. You can attribute it to the big trend of dub-step/break-beat style of Tribal Fusion & to the prevalence of Jazz-style training of some big-name instructors. But its not all like that... I just came back from two different weekends in Houston & Austin & I assure you that the relaxed, sensual style of BD is still kickin'.

I agree with Shimarella (and thank you for the word "isolationy").
I get these things that have been mentioned - I've seen it - but there's plenty of good classic stuff out there too. & there's dancing that incorporates new trends w/out being bad/boring/over the top/not really BD. Let's bring it to the forefront - push back the fluff.