Thread: A Lament? Trying Not to Whine...

Bravo! :-)

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Some dancers do seem fascinated with the paradox of being both complicated and boring. It might be quite impressive that you've mastered the muscular control do to three solid minutes of elaborate tricks, but it really isn't that interesting to watch. The dance is supposed to look effortless. It's supposed to be entertaining. Your audience is not supposed to have to concentrate on you like a "Where's Waldo?" picture to appreciate the intricacy of what you're packing into it. We are not amused. Actually, we're fatigued just watching at you, and we wonder if you understand what the real point of this is or if you only comprehend it on the most superficial of levels.



I think the difference is that native dancers approach drum solos as if they are SONGS, not sequences of rhythms. Western dancers often seem to forget that there is still a melodic structure with evolving dynamics and mood in a drum solo, even if no other instruments are playing. I wonder is some of this doesn't come from the same mind set that produces the "If a qanun is playing, you have to shimmy" style rules. Maybe you want to shimmy if the drummer is playing a lot of fast, running fingerwork--but maybe you don't. Maybe it's more visually appealing if you hit the major accents for a while and skip the embellishment beats now and then. Drum solos are still music. If you want to have real depth of feeling in them, you can't approach them like you're following a recipe in a cookbook.

I think the newer forms of BD i.e.tribal fusion are at the forefront right now and getting lots of attention but there's still good traditional dancing going on.

I also disagree about tummy flutters and rolls, I use these but I don't rely on them. They are accent moves, minimally yet strategically placed for maximum effect :-) I feel the same for turkish drops, sultan drops, crazy to the floor back bends, berber walks w/ sword balance and any other "hey, look at what I can do" moves, as long as the dance doesn't rely on these things they can be a wonderful, impressive touch and, the truth is, audiences often love them. I do believe that a dancer is a combination of athlete and artist and the athlete can appreciate the work/determination/stamina it takes to accomplish these moves.

On the other hand, I must admit what I'd personally like to see is more savoring of the music. I saw a dancer recently who performed like an angel. At one point, she just lingered for a moment or two, her arms gracefully extended... and that small pause expressed more than any movement could at that particular moment. I felt like she was really in the moment, feeling it and in turn I felt it. She did no fancy drops, pops or bends but she was fabulous indeed!

A belly dancer shouldn't be afraid to make the audience wait a few extra seconds to complete her moves or yes, linger like the aforementioned dancer. This is one of my personal goals, to relax into the dance more. I am doing more taqsim, slower music and improvisation. And I am trying to get this mindset into my students as well, many who seem to be in a rush to complete the moves. When you savor the music and let it flow through you that's when you feel it inside and really, truly dance.

I have never been a big fan of drum solos because its all popping and accent, there's not much emphasis on flow-y... I must have my oud and flutes so I can be flow-y. But will say that drum solos can come in handy to liven up a routine or show.

Also choreography can be a great tool for learning but it is important to get students improvising early. I teach both, but improv in a "safe" way using small combination's. We also do a simple exercise where we dance to the same song but we focus on interpreting a different instrument each time. We talk about the instruments and what sounds dominant to us, and what feels appropriate to do. I find this has been really helpful in getting my students to understand ME music a bit better, and more importantly getting them to understand that the music will guide them in what to do if they listen carefully.

Probably much like fashion trends, it'll come back around as the "in" or "new and unique" thing when people get bored with current trends. There are a lot of dancers out there that do a great job intermixing older, beautiful melodic bd with the modern pops and locks.

Originally Posted by blueyeddancer

Also choreography can be a great tool for learning but it is important to get students improvising early. I teach both, but improv in a "safe" way using small combination's. We also do a simple exercise where we dance to the same song but we focus on interpreting a different instrument each time. We talk about the instruments and what sounds dominant to us, and what feels appropriate to do. I find this has been really helpful in getting my students to understand ME music a bit better, and more importantly getting them to understand that the music will guide them in what to do if they listen carefully.

This sounds great. I also agree that choreography can be a great tool -- I didn't mean to sound in my previous post that I am anti-choreography. I'm glad that I have learned to create passably good choreographies, a skill that I once lacked. But it seems to me that lately much teaching, as well as performance method, has been overwhelmed by a focusing on choreo only. At one time I danced almost strictly improv (except for troupe dances), but now I feel that I've lost that ability and am working on trying to regain it.

Arabic Music

Here's the link to the tarab article referred to earlier. I agree with the OP.

I too have noticed a lack of belly dancing. I sometimes get the impression that "belly dance" is being used as an excuse for people just to get on stage and do whatever they want. I've seen some stuff that just makes me shake my head.

I agree with the comment that a dancer is an athlete and an artist but there does seem to be a trend where dancing is more about athleticism and gymnastic tricks than about dancing from within.

I watch some performances, usually it will be tribal, and I think that the dancer has a set of moves she wants to do and picks a piece of music that she can throw those moves into rather than pick a piece of music that moves him or her and find a way to express that.

I agree, the use of ME music is a must. Belly dancing moves were created to match that type of music. The more complicated music the more rhythm changes you have, the easier it is to dance as the music tells you what to do.

My teacher always said the dancer is another instrument in the orchestra. Sometimes the instruments all play together, sometimes they do a duet, sometimes a solo, sometimes they talk back and forth to each other like a conversation. A skilled dancer can't ignore either the melody or the rhythm, both are important.

I teach exclusively to ME music. I occassionally throw some ME pop songs in, but rarely, as it is hard to find a ME pop song that is danceable, meaning it has enough changes in it to make it interesting.

I think choreo has it's place in teaching beginners but I'm careful to point out that this is not the only way to dance to this piece of music and will show them another way. The same thing when learning steps, yes we drill the step to B music but look, if it's to C music you can do the same step but you just change it like this.

I see way too much choreography that leaves me cold. Steps may be executed perfectly, the pose is perfect, the facial expression perfect, but it's just a string of movements with no connection to the music, no feeling, no tarab.

Originally Posted by khadiya

That's interesting. My background is pretty much purely Egyptian and I've always been taught (but such noteables as Bhuz's own Kharis) that the ability to respond to both the melody and the drums in one piece of music and to make appropriate, expressive choices about when to do so are the mark of a good dancer

WORD. WORD. WORD.

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

WORD. WORD. WORD.

Deborah

Something just came to mind: I have never had an Egyptian native instructor. From your perspective Khadija, or the perspective of the people you discussed this with or learned it implicitly from, is the dancing to the melody instead of the drum beat entirely up to the dancer and her feeling of the music?
Or are there some "rules" (sure they'll be bendable.. just to know on a general note what Egyptian master teachers would say on this).

Like if there is a consensus as I believe to feel amongst "educated audiences" of Lebanese/Jordanian descent (which does not necessarily mean Lebanese master teachers would be of the same opinion, of course - but I feel the theory is backed up by the taste tv dancers seem to cater to in Lebanon at least since the 90s) in the sense that people would feel you are "off" once you stop dancing on the drum in order to express more of the melody, would there be anything like switching between music and rhythm being perceived as "Off" from an Egyptian perspective?

Now obviously this does not concern song parts where the drum is muted, and only the melody prevails. this does of course call for dance to the melody. I am thinking of parts of the song with strong drum presence, yet strong melodic parts as well.

I am guessing this probably is a question with no answer for its too abstracted/generalized nature. Just checking if there is any knowledge purely Egyptian style teachers may share with their students on this.

One thing that's always stuck with me from Diana Tarkhan's Masters of Choreography DVD is that she said your feet keep the rhythm while the rest of you follows the music. That made a lot of sense to me, and it can also help explain why sometimes it can be hard to tell if a dancer is reacting to the beat or the melody, since your feet are in fact connected to the rest of you.

Actually I heard the foot/rhythm thing too from somewhere else. I remember it seemed accurate - but I must have forgotten about it :)

Originally Posted by dinavienna

"Drum solos take a lot of choreography"

This is exactly why many students and even pros perform terribly dull drum solos. With songs and rhythms remembered by heart rather than felt, and an iron ambition to not miss more than five beats over the entire song..
If people were to watch some Mona Said, Amani or Samara drum solos - they'd see there is SO much room for relaxation, tease, style, charm. Watch Mona dance with relaxation and a lovely African vibe to the drum, or Amani tease her audience by NOT hitting every beat over the entire song - rather building up momentum to then for a certain time be on beat exactly and amaze the audience whose attention and excitement she built up rather than exhausted over the entire drum solo.

That's true (hi Dina) - but you need live drummers that are good for dancers and that you can work well with. Mona had this, all Egyptian dancers have live drummers, and I had the pleasure to be able to dance while an excellent dancer's drummer was playing, and not only did the strong tabla drive my moves but his accents and patterns were also somehow announcing themselves. It was EASY to dance to it, and it came naturally, I was amazed.
When a master-drummer records a tabla solo though, he wants to make a new thing. Within two minutes you get more effects and acoustic fireworks and it's tough to improvise to that because it is the essence of long work and practice, and there is an idea of composition behind it and you sort of have to correspond to this. You cannot kind of correspond of some master drummers live experience from the scratch - I think. And a good recorded drum solo does have surprises and many intricacies, just some hip bumps just wouldn't be it...

Many people don't have good live musicians at hand, and they play a big role in learning how to improvise.

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

One thing that's always stuck with me from Diana Tarkhan's Masters of Choreography DVD is that she said your feet keep the rhythm while the rest of you follows the music. That made a lot of sense to me, and it can also help explain why sometimes it can be hard to tell if a dancer is reacting to the beat or the melody, since your feet are in fact connected to the rest of you.

But isn't this a modern Egyptian thing that the drum is a lot more dominant and the dancers dance a lot more steps and accents than actually melodic lines?

Then you have Caroline Evanoff, who is of the Raqia side of things, remarking in a workshop that a lot of Egyptians these days choreograph to the *vocal line*. Wargh!

I think this is one of those great questions wherein the correct answer is "it depends"...

[QUOTE=Nouria;614498]That's true (hi Dina) - but you need live drummers that are good for dancers and that you can work well with. Mona had this, all Egyptian dancers have live drummers, and I had the pleasure to be able to dance while an excellent dancer's drummer was playing, and not only did the strong tabla drive my moves but his accents and patterns were also somehow announcing themselves. It was EASY to dance to it, and it came naturally, I was amazed.
QUOTE]

Hi there Nouria, how are you doing? :)
I think I know what you experienced, too.
I once danced to a live drummer long before taking dance classes in a chic NYC club where for some reason they had a live drummer play to the otherwise electronic music. The entire club was a bit African decorated, so it fit the style I guess.
He played next to me half the night, and I don't think he was Arab at all rather African or maybe Black Latin, and for some reason I surprisingly could dance to his drum music. I think that was the time I felt I could dance, and wanted to learn more. The beginning of an addiciton LOL I had not planned on becoming known as the "wild dancer" with my circle there, but thank God my uncle took it very well ..l;,

So I believe to a good live drummer who responds to you, which this guy definitely did, the energy can carry you away, and the moment can be magical. I wished I had the drummer here with me sometimes!!! I'd love to go on that ride again ..l;,

xxx

Originally Posted by dinavienna

Hi there Nouria, how are you doing? :)
I think I know what you experienced, too.
I once danced to a live drummer long before taking dance classes in a chic NYC club where for some reason they had a live drummer play to the otherwise electronic music. The entire club was a bit African decorated, so it fit the style I guess.
He played next to me half the night, and I don't think he was Arab at all rather African or maybe Black Latin, and for some reason I surprisingly could dance to his drum music. I think that was the time I felt I could dance, and wanted to learn more. The beginning of an addiciton LOL I had not planned on becoming known as the "wild dancer" with my circle there, but thank God my uncle took it very well ..l;,

So I believe to a good live drummer who responds to you, which this guy definitely did, the energy can carry you away, and the moment can be magical. I wished I had the drummer here with me sometimes!!! I'd love to go on that ride again ..l;,

you know why bellydancers often go out with drummers?
And flamenco dancers with guitarists? It's so much fun, you GOT to get hold of that guy and what you get out of it it kind of makes it easy to put up with the rest... (ok, kidding here, butttt...it's not really strange at all!).

LOL you give me bad ideas what that drummer hoped for!!!

Originally Posted by dinavienna

LOL you give me bad ideas what that drummer hoped for!!!

hey maybe it's you who missed it ..g.:

Originally Posted by norma

Arabic Music

Here's the link to the tarab article referred to earlier. I agree with the OP.

Hi Norma!
I looked over the article, yes, sure it's true but that also happens when any popular live band that kicks a** plays for their local fans, they share their "tarab" and the audience is an essential part of the creative process, of course.

Just bellydancers often are booked by people that don't really have much understanding for Arab music, so they have to come up with tricks to keep them entertained...

And don't start about Detroit, we all know you're spoilt in many senses

Originally Posted by Nouria

hey maybe it's you who missed it ..g.:

True, I totally missed out on the entire exciting, heart breaking but THRILLING musician experience. May be my bad when I am old and looking back - never madly in love with the wrong kind of guy ,r:; (or right kind of guy, depends on your perspective LOL)

hey what's going on in Detroit that's so special :)

Oh I am reading the article - I guess good music goes on in Detroit.
I have to agree that I am not entirely convinced "tarab" is unique to Arabic music and distinguishes it from "Western music".
Like in Black Western music a lot of shouting and ecstatsy and emotion can take place - in many other world music styles, too like in Latin concerts the audience will participate so essentially, too. Not sure this is entirely different from "tarab" as the author says.

Arab audiences are great, and passionate. But other cultures have similar expressions of the same I believe.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Then you have Caroline Evanoff, who is of the Raqia side of things, remarking in a workshop that a lot of Egyptians these days choreograph to the *vocal line*. Wargh!

Dancers who work with live singers have always used the vocal line for choreographic inspiration. The vocals are the most obvious manifestation of the musical phrasing. Now if you only dance when the singer is singing and stand around the rest of the time, that would be a serious problem, but otherwise, I don't think it's any different from choosing to tap into what a violinist or accordionist is doing when they carry the melody on an instrumental. The voice is another instrument in the band. It's just the one that gets the lion's share of the melody and the front advantage in the overall audio mix.

And also the vocals is something the audience is relating to massively.. singing along to, and getting patriotic, or sad, or or happy through.

Originally Posted by Nouria

But isn't this a modern Egyptian thing that the drum is a lot more dominant and the dancers dance a lot more steps and accents than actually melodic lines?

That's true, but Diana Tarkhan's not teaching modern Egyptian on that DVD--one choreo is Golden Era film inspired, and the other one is more classic Egyptian, with accordingly classic music.

Hi,
I'm fairly new on here and a bit late in on this topic, I was reading this and I am wondering if some of this isn't affected by all the reality type dance shows on TV of late? That 'real dancers' are more like athletes, and that putting all the pops/locks muscular or acrobatic tricks isn't some peoples way of trying to get taken as seriously as other dance forms? I mean anyone who has taken BD classes knows it's a lot of work, but do the GP? Maybe I'm slightly off topic, or just plain wrong. Just a thought that occured, felt like sharing it

The last time I saw BDSS I was disappointed. While the dancers were very qualified and just awesome, I kept looking for the raqs sharqi. Once in awhile you saw a flicker here and there, but it was so chock full of fushion I wondered why they even called it bellydance. I think "Raks Carnivale" is appropriate because it was definitely that.

Originally Posted by dinavienna

Something just came to mind: I have never had an Egyptian native instructor. From your perspective Khadija, or the perspective of the people you discussed this with or learned it implicitly from, is the dancing to the melody instead of the drum beat entirely up to the dancer and her feeling of the music?
Or are there some "rules" (sure they'll be bendable.. just to know on a general note what Egyptian master teachers would say on this).
.....Just checking if there is any knowledge purely Egyptian style teachers may share with their students on this.

There is a well known male musician (who travels with different dancer teachers) who teaches "down and in on the doums and up and out on the teks and kas." NO exception. He teaches this as "the secrets of true Arabian dance. If you don't do it this way you are wrong."
He referenced Souheir Zaki and Shoo Shoo Amin in the two workshops I took from him. He said this was how they danced all the time! Fortunately, Yasmin has lots of non-commercially available footage of Shoo Shoo- and there is tons of footage of Souheir. These dancers followed his "rule" less than 20% of the time in their dancing. I found it to be a useful tool to sometimes use when dancing. But certainly not a rule.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Dancers who work with live singers have always used the vocal line for choreographic inspiration...

Did you mean "choreographic inspiration" or "dance inspiration?" Choreography in the dance is a more recent addition.
Regardless, inspiration from the vocal lines has not always been such a dominant thing. Sahar Hamdi was the first one to popularize singing along while gesturing the words of the song- and that was part of the reason she was SO popular with Egyptian audiences. Her personality came out during these songs.

Originally Posted by Nouria

But isn't this a modern Egyptian thing that the drum is a lot more dominant and the dancers dance a lot more steps and accents than actually melodic lines?

Hmm...research into the musician composition of bands and how this has changed over the years might relate to this. For the last 4 decades at least the bands in Egypt had SO many percussionists! The drummers are generally more than 50% of the band. There is so much power to convey in addition to the added complexity of accents!

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

Originally Posted by Tourbeau
Dancers who work with live singers have always used the vocal line for choreographic inspiration...

Did you mean "choreographic inspiration" or "dance inspiration?" Choreography in the dance is a more recent addition.
Regardless, inspiration from the vocal lines has not always been such a dominant thing. Sahar Hamdi was the first one to popularize singing along while gesturing the words of the song- and that was part of the reason she was SO popular with Egyptian audiences. Her personality came out during these songs.

I meant in the generic sense of intentionally moving to music. I would say that most dancers are choreographing in their heads on the fly when they improvise on stage, because they're making purposeful choices to represent the music with particular movements. Even dancers who don't "choreograph" aren't usually just bopping around randomly to a song they've never heard before and have no prior knowledge of how this or a similar song would progress. It's a looser interpretation of the word "choreography" (as opposed to only referring to a predetermined, rigid sequence of moves, practiced in advance), but it's still a choreographic process to me.

wow, I didn't even realize people were choreographing drum solo's outside of competition or troupe numbers! I am such an improv dancer that it wouldn't even occur to me to choreograph it. Half the fun is the challenge of "thinking on your feet". When you have live music with a good, attentive drummer....it can be magic!