Thread: Is it only ATS if you strictly follow FCBD?

So if we change an arm position slightly, if we add new movements that follow the format (cues, improvisation) are we still doing ATS?
Is Gypsy Caravan ATS?
Or is it only ATS if you do nothing else than what Carolena teaches?

Discuss....

MEISSOUN

Carolena has asked dancers to only call it ATS if they follow the FCBD format. However, I would suspect that if a group that does ATS were to add their own combination that fits in, Carolena would look at it kindly.

Or you could always call it ITS (Improvisational Tribal Style).

I heard that Carolena was going to be copywriting her combos, and only those who get certified and continually renew their certification with her can continue to use her combos, so I can imagine that it could become an issue in the future if someone uses the term "ATS" without having that certification.

Originally Posted by Shalimah

I heard that Carolena was going to be copywriting her combos, and only those who get certified and continually renew their certification with her can continue to use her combos, so I can imagine that it could become an issue in the future if someone uses the term "ATS" without having that certification.

That sounds like at least partially a rumor to me. To begin with, it would cut the market for her instructional DVDs dramatically - after all, why would I purchase her DVD if I can not use the material? And, given that the moves and combinations have been used freely for many years, can one actually enforce under copyright law that people may not use them anymore retroactively? Usually, intellectual property law does not offer too much protection when things have been out there for a long time. Are you sure that this is not about requiring certification for teaching?

Since I am not living in the States, I am not super-sensitive about calling what I do AMERICAN Tribal Style - actually, we officially call our dance Oriental Tribal Style.
But then, sometimes I have to put the ATS label on it, so people know what I am representing - if only loosely :-)

Our main source are the FCBD videos - but if you have a group of pro dancers, I think it's only logical that we like to incorporate our own movements to have a larger repertoire.
We don't want to be just a bad copy of FCBD ("often imitated, never duplicated" is their motto!), we want to bring in our own creativity.

MEISSOUN

I'd heard the possible copyrighting story too, and the way I see it is Carolena taking back the name by which her work has come to be known, in the face of lots of people presenting all and anything they want as "tribal" and often "ATS". I can't count how many times I've seen someone on the internet say Rachel Brice is an ATS dancer. No she isn't. She studied some ATS as did a lot of people but what she does isn't ATS and it's disrespectful to her and to ATS to just label her ATS. I can understand why Carolena feels the way she does - not that there's anything wrong with what RB does and I'm sure Carolena likes it, but if people think RB is ATS then they probably think Unmata's ponyplay piece is ATS, or T-rex arms are ATS.... ATs is a very specific product and Carolena has effectively created a business around it. She does have a right to protect her own work, I think. It would be easier if it were known as Nericcio-style or something but that would involve a massive rebrand, and also, why *should* she? Tribal as it is known today is largely *because* of FCBD existing in the first place.

Originally Posted by meissoun

Since I am not living in the States, I am not super-sensitive about calling what I do AMERICAN Tribal Style - actually, we officially call our dance Oriental Tribal Style.
But then, sometimes I have to put the ATS label on it, so people know what I am representing - if only loosely :-)

Our main source are the FCBD videos - but if you have a group of pro dancers, I think it's only logical that we like to incorporate our own movements to have a larger repertoire.
We don't want to be just a bad copy of FCBD ("often imitated, never duplicated" is their motto!), we want to bring in our own creativity.

MEISSOUN

Agreed. Our group is the same. We prefer to make our own combos, anyway.

Of course I can't find it now...I read an article a few yrs ago in Jareeda magazine in Barbara Sorensens's column Tribal Talk. In it she expressed her sorrow that Carolena had communicated [that's the part I can't remember how..personally to Barbara? in a letter? in an email? in a post on website?] that her wish now is that only certified ATS dancers [by Carolena & her official certifiers for lack of a better term] use the term American Tribal Style. I gathered that this communication was very respectful & well thought out. The gist was that Carolena felt she had developed a particular style with a specific name, was not too keen on how many branches of every experimental Bellydance thang used the term, and was clearly stating that the term ATS not be used unless certain criteria, set by her, were met.
In the column, Barbara respectfully expressed her disappointment (as she had studied with C.N., but not certified; & had felt that she had her approval to carry on, and was at a loss now of how to proceed) and chagrin, though it seemed clear that she did understand the reasons behind it.
Since then, I had not really heard much more about the above.
I was interested to see what happened next, in Barbara's column, but I don't recall seeing the a subsequent referral.
Anyone else remember this column?

Originally Posted by zumarrad

I'd heard the possible copyrighting story too, and the way I see it is Carolena taking back the name by which her work has come to be known, in the face of lots of people presenting all and anything they want as "tribal" and often "ATS". I can't count how many times I've seen someone on the internet say Rachel Brice is an ATS dancer. No she isn't. She studied some ATS as did a lot of people but what she does isn't ATS and it's disrespectful to her and to ATS to just label her ATS. I can understand why Carolena feels the way she does - not that there's anything wrong with what RB does and I'm sure Carolena likes it, but if people think RB is ATS then they probably think Unmata's ponyplay piece is ATS, or T-rex arms are ATS.... ATs is a very specific product and Carolena has effectively created a business around it. She does have a right to protect her own work, I think. It would be easier if it were known as Nericcio-style or something but that would involve a massive rebrand, and also, why *should* she? Tribal as it is known today is largely *because* of FCBD existing in the first place.

So would her copyright only apply to those who advertise themselves as ATS? And what kind of recourse would she have if someone is doing Rachel Brice-style and advertises themselves as ATS?

I can't blame her for wanting control over her creation, but I don't really know how she can gain it. I'm not sure how a copyright would work, unless she went with the certification route like Suhaila.

She *has* gone for the certification route.

That's what I thought.

The whole ATS thing is so very confusing. People who dance in a group improv combo style have a hard time calling it anything else when referring to group improv. My troupe dances to Gypsy Caravan format. Paulette just calls it Tribal style..so that's what we do.

And when you think about it, certification doesn't harm DVDs. In fact it supplements them big time. I am not a tribal dancer; I like Egyptian dance. I can learn a choreo from a DVD by Randa or have things broken down by Shareen el Safy but in the grand scheme of things, given the chance to study with them live, I WILL. And if I want to study Egyptian dance, my preferred teachers would be a) people from there b) people who have done tons of study with those people c) (importantly) whose dancing I like and admire.

I get the impression that for ATS it is this times a zillion. You can get the DVDs of course. You can learn how to do the moves and you can teach other people the moves. But that doesn't mean you don't want to visit the Mothership! Which is in SF, not Egypt, easier to get to and they all speak English. Plus, it's one thing to have learned the basic moves from the DVDs, but if you get classes with Carolena she can tell you whether you're doing it right or not. It would be like getting individual tuition from Suheir Zaki on her hip chonk, but if Suheir was also a physical trainer who could break it down for you in a very specific manner. How awesome would that be!

Plus, if you have done certification you get Carolena's personal stamp of approval, and there are levels of certification that make you more and more desirable as a teacher of ATS... it's all jam.

Zumarrad - are you referring to my comment above? If so, I think that my argument did not come across right.

My argument was that if there were intellectual property law invoked to keep everybody who does not keep up certification from performing the ATS vocabulary, then DVD sales would be hurt. And, knowing that Carolena is a very intelligent and thoughtful woman, I can not imagine that she would insist, as somebody wrote earlier, that "only those who get certified and continually renew their certification with her can continue to use her combos". The various levels of certification and ongoing education that are in place right now are well thought out.

Oh I don't think for one second she says uncertified people can't use her combos.

My understanding is that her request revolves around the name, not the combos. If you claim to teach ATS, you need the certification.

Every Tribal teacher I've learned from or met has called their classes "ITS" - Improve Tribal Style - in respect of Carolena's wishes. ITS can look exactly like ATS or include a wider repertoire, it's only called ITS because it lacks the ATS certification.

I've actually never met an ATS certified teacher, but that may be because I live on the East Coast. *sniff*

Originally Posted by MirandaPhoenix

My understanding is that her request revolves around the name, not the combos. If you claim to teach ATS, you need the certification.

Every Tribal teacher I've learned from or met has called their classes "ITS" - Improve Tribal Style - in respect of Carolena's wishes. ITS can look exactly like ATS or include a wider repertoire, it's only called ITS because it lacks the ATS certification.

I've actually never met an ATS certified teacher, but that may be because I live on the East Coast. *sniff*

This. My troupe learned our first improv tribal format from someone who learned from, but was not certified by, Carolena. After forming our troupe, we have added several of our own combos, different zill patterns, ways to switch the lead side of the body from right to left and back again (ATS is quite one-sided), and have developed our own costume look, or rather, several looks. We follow the concept that Carolena put forth and use many of her original moves and combinations, but our own vocabulary and method of improv has deviated far enough from hers that we feel it would be misleading to call ourselves ATS anymore. We call it ITS or just "Tribal Improv."

Originally Posted by mihri

We call it ITS or just "Tribal Improv."

Mihri, I would call what you all do "Awesome". ;-)

Originally Posted by meissoun

So if we change an arm position slightly, if we add new movements that follow the format (cues, improvisation) are we still doing ATS?
Is Gypsy Caravan ATS?
Or is it only ATS if you do nothing else than what Carolena teaches?

Discuss....

MEISSOUN

I certainly hope not! And Carolina learned from Jamila, then changed it to her own style. So who's the authority on it now?

Carolena did not learn from Jamila, she learned from Masha Archer who was Jamila's student and who had quite a lot of influence of her own in terms of costuming, approach to music etc etc.

Carolena did take what she learned from Masha and consciously change and develop. As I understand it she did create, along with her dancers, the cued improvisation system. Before that it was not done, though I'm sure there were dancers out there using some kind of cue from time to time. But this was formal.

I am not a big tribal apologist and I find the money-money-money approach that underlies BD these days really frustrating and limiting sometimes, while also academically *fascinating*, but fair dues to Carolena here.

Originally Posted by MirandaPhoenix

I've actually never met an ATS certified teacher, but that may be because I live on the East Coast. *sniff*

There are a couple in my region! They just went to intensives in Australia I think.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Carolena did not learn from Jamila, she learned from Masha Archer who was Jamila's student and who had quite a lot of influence of her own in terms of costuming, approach to music etc etc.

Carolena did take what she learned from Masha and consciously change and develop. As I understand it she did create, along with her dancers, the cued improvisation system. Before that it was not done, though I'm sure there were dancers out there using some kind of cue from time to time. But this was formal.

I am not a big tribal apologist and I find the money-money-money approach that underlies BD these days really frustrating and limiting sometimes, while also academically *fascinating*, but fair dues to Carolena here.

Thanks for clarifying. It seems like every new "generation" invents their own version. But that happens in a lot of dance styles. It seems like "authority" is constantly evolving too.

Originally Posted by MirandaPhoenix

I've actually never met an ATS certified teacher, but that may be because I live on the East Coast. *sniff*

We do have some here on the East Coast! There's at least one in Baltimore (and I think another just got certified) and I think there are a couple in the D.C. area.

Here is a list of official FCBD sister studios on the East Coast:

Fat Chance Belly Dance Sister Studios

Originally Posted by steffib

Here is a list of official FCBD sister studios on the East Coast:

Fat Chance Belly Dance Sister Studios

Hey, thanks!!

I agree that Carolena should have the rights to her own combinations, but I don't think the courts will see it any differently than they did the Pilates case.

How can one trademark or copyright a system of movements, exercise-based or dance-based?


Supposedly Suhaila's system won't allow you to say you teach "Suhaila format" without her authorization, but I see it all the time on websites of people I know full well aren't part of the program and haven't studied with Suhaila for YEARS, if ever. Suhaila would need a full-time legal team to catch all the unauthorized users, and I'm still not sure where exactly the line is. Can I say I teach "Suhaila-style" classes? How about "I teach the Suhaila format I learned from her workshops in my weekly classes." ??

Trying to reclaim the term "ATS" is a little like Egyptian dancers wanting to reclaim and specifically define the term "bellydance."

Originally Posted by aziyade

Trying to reclaim the term "ATS" is a little like Egyptian dancers wanting to reclaim and specifically define the term "bellydance."

That's what I thought, too.
And one image popped into my mind. Remember the sushi certification story that made headlines last year? I was seeing Egyptian officials parade up at bellydance events and provide or deny certifications. Of course that would mean Egyptian authorities were to embrace and take pride in raks sharki as part of their culture like in previous decades.

ATS is a very recent development, and its history can be traced back very precisely. It can be easily distinguished from Egyptian raqs sharki, because there is no such easily documentable and straight history of dance in Egypt. (And, then there is the whole complication of how everything was intermeshed under the Ottoman empire, and how the Turkish dancers have done their thing, as well. But that is a whole different can of worms ...)

ya well sushi with avocado is a very recent development, too, yet the Japanese do their best to try and exert every influence possible to secure sushi remains consistent with their tradition.

Honestly I think adding avocado to sushi is about as innovative like most tribal dance moves. especially the non Rachel Brice/very modern flamenco/balkanese etc. styles have one predominant movement pattern underlying, and that is very distinctly Mideastern.. sure they put MUCH fantasy into it, but the movements they borrowed exist to a very large extent in Mideastern folklore.
So theoretically I do see Egyptians could definitely claim control over their heritage as much as Japanese do for sushi (letting aside tribal dancers will not give a dime about whether someone hands them an "authentic Egyptian" label, on the contrary, and many Arabs from the Mideast cringe in horror at the sight of tribal bellydance in the sense of "what have they done to our dance?!", anyway - so there probably is no interest in such a certification on either side :) ).

Ya just to say the unpopular thing aside the very fusion-oriented tribal bellydance I see the major influence still as Mideastern in ATS. the shimmies, the undulations, the hip circles - what they did is put in a good dose of fantasy for the tribal "decoration", and for the companionship with the cues and particular combinations you definitely would not see actual tribes do. but their combinations are made of movements these tribes do. So that would be like I take salsa apart, realign the movements somewhat to something visually and energetically different and then I say "hey, I invented something that is totally not connected to salsa". I'd not feel I'd have the right to claim an invention if the dance were still composed of largely salsa moves, just somewhat rerouted. But everyone will have their own view on that, and if people say they totally made up their dance there's nothing to do about it other than saying I disagree because you're still shimmying and undulating and hipdropping VERY much like Mideastern women do.