Thread: Egyptian style - classic, modern or now Lebanese

Originally Posted by MelanieLA

Yes, that's true, thank you for that clarification. I'm more speaking about the fans of BDSS that some said wouldn't understand they are not watching Egyptian....many are more into fusion, so her choreographies have hopefully piqued interest in her training, which would lead back to classic Reda.

I don't understand what you're asking, but perhaps it's semantics. Jillina's choreography is a fusion of ballet, jazz, modern, and Raqs Sharqi. Some people call this "contemporary", others "lyrical". I hope that answers your questions.

I think it was just semantics. I didn't get you.

I think that if a dancer is serious, and comes from a background of dance (where you are expected to know your history and origins), and her first exposure to "Egyptian" dance is Jillina, she WILL dig and then will find a solid Egyptian foundation. And that's a good thing.

I agree but we have an epidemic with bellydance where dancers don't that very often...

I understand what you're saying, but again, back to my original point, what bdss calls their egyptian piece, is not really egyptian style save the music, the costuming and some signature moves from some of the egyptian stars. jmho

Allooo,

This is a really interesting thread. I would say there are 3 main progressions of what we would call "Egyptian style". There is the 1940s-50s style, 70s and 80s and the modern style from the late 90s onwards. Between these times are gray areas where things tend to blend together, stylistically. Some dancers (like Nagwa Fouad and Suhair Zaki) started in one era and ended dancing in another. So what is Egyptian style?

Unfortunately, it's hard to peg down "Egyptian style" steps, movements or combinations since many of these steps are also used by the Lebanese. As Tourbeau pointed out, it is more about the "essence" of the style including the posture, musical interpretation, etc.

However, I CAN spot a heavily Reda trained dancer from a mile away with my eyes covered in latex! There's a certain use of space that is uniquely Reda. This is also the reason why I'm not a fan of Reda but I digress.

And to clear some misconceptions on Lebanese style: I've seen very few dancers here in the states that actually do Modern Lebanese. I think it's because most dancers here prefer Egyptian. Even the dancers I have seen do Lebanese style are not performing the style that is current in Lebanon. After the heyday of Amani and Samara, Lebanese style has gotten even FASTER. It also involves aggressive hipwork, sharp accents, rapid fire spins and wacky floor work.

So as most people have said already, most dancers in the US are doing more of an "Americanized Egyptian" versus a kind of Lebanese-infused Egyptian style.

DAnce is a living thing a changes constantly. Egyptian dance is no exception to this. Although there are certain characteristics that define the 'essence ' of the dance-our desire to classify it only ends up crystalizing it into something devoid of what originally made it what it is.

I also dont agree with this idea of having categories of dance style and not including all of them. When Egyptian Dance became popular here in the states in the 90's, largely due to Sahra who began to teach it when she returned to the states yearly during her Ramadan holiday from Egypt. Before that there was no category-it was all Belly Dance. The peolple started to see the difference between 'what we were doing before that'-which we now call Am Cab, and this "NEW' Egyptian style. I believe it was BDUC that was the first to make an actual category distinuishing Egyptian from Am Cab.

It seems that when dancers start to really delve into the authenticity of the dance-then all of a sudden they are considered Egyptian style.

And while I do agree that there are certain characteristics of Lebanese style belly dance that are different than egyptian style-Nagwa Fouad for example who is considered a legendary Egyptian dancer is not even egyptian. Nadia Gamal who is considered a Lebanese style dancer dances nothing like what we consider Lebanese style today. And there are many more examples.

I am another example of this. I am Lebanese, my father was a musician who owned arabic nightclubs (the Fez and Cascades). I came out of the womb Belly Dancing yet was surrounded by the dance style we had at the time -the 70's and 80's Am Cab. At the same time I danced with people from all over the Middle East on a nightly basis. I began being trained by Sahra when I was around 9 years old, then met Farida Fahmy and began to learn the Reda style at the age of 15. I continued to study with local dancers and by watching videos of 'Egyptian style". Then through dancing in Sahra's troupe and studying with other master teachers I became more classically trained in 'folklore'-mainly Egyptian, Dabke and Khaleeji.

So all of my entire life of dance experience boils down to "Egyptian style" because thats the only thing people know what to call it.

So why dont we leave the labels alone-how about if we stop copying other dancers styles and study the dance AND the culture AND the music and become our OWN dancer.

End of rant-thank you for listening!

PS. Thank you Deborah for your kind compliment of my dancing. I danced to Inta Omri in that show!!

I do teach musical interpretation in my classes as well. Im the daughter of an Arabic musician, I studied music at an early age as well and have been listening to Arabic music ALL my life:)

Originally Posted by roxxanne

So why dont we leave the labels alone-how about if we stop copying other dancers styles and study the dance AND the culture AND the music and become our OWN dancer.

I think people do get very hung up on labels, and it drives me crazy when they do it with the music. You just cannot shove this stuff into neat, clean, little boxes. The lines are blurry and somewhat open to personal interpretation--even under the best and most knowledgeable of circumstances.

OTOH, there is a certain academic validity to wanting to study the intricacies of the individual variations of the dance in its native habitats. Globalization, cultural pressure coming from religious hardliners in the Middle East, and the undeniable evolution that always happens over time are all conspiring against the preservation of the details that make the dance unique from place to place. While the average dancer doesn't need to have this level of understanding, it is an invaluable resource to humanity that there are a few who make the effort to catalog, master, and preserve the dance as an anthropological exercise.

Well said Tourbeau!!

Originally Posted by roxxanne

And while I do agree that there are certain characteristics of Lebanese style belly dance that are different than egyptian style-Nagwa Fouad for example who is considered a legendary Egyptian dancer is not even egyptian. Nadia Gamal who is considered a Lebanese style dancer dances nothing like what we consider Lebanese style today. And there are many more examples.

Ngawa was born in Alexandria - as was Nadia Gamal two years earlier. Nadia's training was with the Casino Opera but she moved to Lebanon as a young woman. That said Nadia Gamal does not come across as an Egyptian dancer.

It is very little about the vocab - but there is something there. It's also the attitude - the approach to the music. But styles do change over time. This happens even faster as video spreads other movement styles and the audience demands certain types of entertainment. While the Saudi were big in Egypt they added khaleegy. Now that it is western tourists you have Randa. Even so, there is still a link.

As part of my presentation I show Didem doing something very non-Egyptian to a Om Khalthoum classic. Even without the costume you'd know she wasn't an Egyptian dancer - from any age.

I thought some of the points in this article about egyptian style were good ones....
Sausan writes of the EDC for the Gilded Serpent

Originally Posted by Maryon

Okay.... I have always thought I was pretty good at describing and recognizing "Egyptian style" of Raqs Sharki. My brief description would be internal and strong, yet relaxed, confident with feeling, not rushed but slightly behind the beat and elegance. While I was watching the Egyptian category at the competition, I saw more kicks, fast paced, and choreographies where every beat was filled in with a move which to me looked more Lebanese style. The dancers were all amazing but only a few with a great Egyptian feeling in their dance. Does anybody understand what I am talking about? Maybe I am just not "with it" with the new moves. Feedback, thoughts, and any information from respected Master teachers/dancers would be appreciated.

Good subject. There are about 13 posts I want to respond to in this thread, but I'll limit myself for now as I have other things I should be doing! Some random disorganized points:

I didn't see the performances you're referring to, and so can't speak directly on them. But I think the category definitions at a competition are going to be fairly loose, which makes perfect sense given the melting-pot nature of American MED.

As noted above, there are issues here of semantics and definitions. When Americans say "Egyptian style" we don't always mean what I would consider real "Egyptian style." Like someone else pointed out, we often mean any sort of generic raqs sharqi-but-not-so-60s-Turkish-AmCab-style. So it gets really difficult when we start talking about "Egyptian" dancers who aren't actually from Egypt - at what point can we say something Jillina is doing becomes Egyptian, and at what point does it stop being Egyptian? A highly subjective issue, and, as with defining any dance "dialect", one that is very tricky. The whole endeavor of defining styles can become fairly absurd and reductive. I'm not saying it's bad - I do it, and the distinctions are there. The issue is, what are the distinctions? Egyptian style has obviously evolved enormously over the past century, but does it have a static soul? Do we mean something different when we say a Western dancer does Egyptian than when we say Naima Akef does Egyptian?

For me, recognizing Egyptian dance is a you-know-it-when-you-see-it thing; but that's personal and only works on an individual level. Not very conducive to discussion, you know?

Also, I referred above to the "melting-pot nature" of dance in North America, but what about the fact that dance in the MidEast itself really is melting-pot? Is anything choreographed by someone from Egypt "Egyptian"? Is Reda "Egyptian"? Russ il Masri, perhaps?

Originally Posted by Mihrbanu

When Americans say "Egyptian style" we don't always mean what I would consider real "Egyptian style." Like someone else pointed out, we often mean any sort of generic raqs sharqi-but-not-so-60s-Turkish-AmCab-style.

Yes, and this is something I've struggled with. I used to think Raqs Sharqi WAS Egyptian style, but I'm seeing so many Russian and American performers doing Raqs Sharqi, but it isn't quite what I see native Egyptians doing, and it's confusing.

Is anything choreographed by someone from Egypt "Egyptian"?

I'm seeing a couple of well-known Egyptian-born dancers offering workshops and when I look at their dancing it doesn't come across as what I think of as Egyptian -- but I'm usually thinking of Sohair, Lucy, Fifi. So that could just be a generational thing.

interesting thread I came across....