Thread: Egyptian style - classic, modern or now Lebanese

Okay.... I have always thought I was pretty good at describing and recognizing "Egyptian style" of Raqs Sharki. My brief description would be internal and strong, yet relaxed, confident with feeling, not rushed but slightly behind the beat and elegance. While I was watching the Egyptian category at the competition, I saw more kicks, fast paced, and choreographies where every beat was filled in with a move which to me looked more Lebanese style. The dancers were all amazing but only a few with a great Egyptian feeling in their dance. Does anybody understand what I am talking about? Maybe I am just not "with it" with the new moves. Feedback, thoughts, and any information from respected Master teachers/dancers would be appreciated.

...

I'm not a respected master teacher but kicks are The Fashion among dancers who like Egyptian dance at the moment because of Randa. And to be fair, kick-type movements are present in Golden Age Egyptian dance.

Originally Posted by Maryon

While I was watching the Egyptian category at the competition, I saw more kicks, fast paced, and choreographies where every beat was filled in with a move which to me looked more Lebanese style. The dancers were all amazing but only a few with a great Egyptian feeling in their dance. Does anybody understand what I am talking about?...

While kicks and strength COULD be Randa influence, she also has her slow, ooy-gooey, relaxed, take your time moments to balance it out (in my opinion)... and her dancing usually comes across as emotionally driven even though technically challenging at times.
Naima Akef did kicks in quite a few of her movies. So kicks CAN be "old school."
The "every beat filled in" sounds to me more like cheerleader/jazz/belly dance "shish-boom baah" BDSS choreography that BDSS calls Egyptian. Which has influenced a lot of American dancers.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

The "every beat filled in" sounds to me more like cheerleader/jazz/belly dance "shish-boom baah" BDSS choreography that BDSS calls Egyptian. Which has influenced a lot of American dancers.

My thoughts, exactly

"Egyptian" isn't a single style, even in the non-folkloric sense. There's a Golden Age style, which is more classical, and a contemporary style, which sometimes borrows heavily from Western ballet, jazz, and modern dance. You could almost call Dina a style by herself, since she is rather unique and many dancers have made a mission to study and emulate her specifically.

Having said that, there are a lot of dancers--teachers and students--who don't really understand what "Egyptian style" means, and treat it as if it is anything that isn't tribal, Turkish, or obviously fusion. There are a number of very good Egyptian-style teachers out there, but taking a couple of workshops with them (or one workshop each from a couple of different teachers) does not automatically imbue you with authentic "Egyptian-ness." IMHO, the term "Egyptian style" for the average American dancer has unintentionally evolved into what could probably more accurately be called "Westernized Pan-Arab style with a strong Egyptian bias." Achieving authenticity takes a focused effort--understanding how Egyptians hear and respond to music, their posture and body language, and so on. If all a dancer is doing is mimicking that in isolated spots, it's not the same as organically inhabiting the style.

I always thought Lebanese was a "cabaret" version of Egyptian raks sharki? Then again, with shaabi, a lot of these kicks are a bigger part of that style. And I'm not talking the saiidi horse steps either but more Western style low kics.

Just when I thought I was beginning to know what it was all about, they go and change all the rules! ..cr.:

They do allow any of the different styles of Egyptian.
But there is no Lebanese, Turkish, or American Cabaret category, which is why I don't understand why they have only an Egyptian Category.

By now it should have expanded to either a general raqs style encompassing any of these, OR each should have their own category. But as I said, I think it's because it has been the popular style for so many years, probably since the competition was implemented.

Have you considered approaching the organisers with your concerns?

Thank you ladies for our comments and information. I think having another category would be a good thing, then the contestants would really have to choose or they would have to alter their performance to that style. Egyptian style is such a difficult style to learn in its authenticity unless you are of course Egyptian. I guess I should watch more of the Egyptian dancers out of Cairo and just do what I do as an American.

Not a respected master teacher/dancer here, but your description says 'modern Cairo style' to me..

B

Originally Posted by Maryon

kicks, fast paced, and choreographies where every beat was filled in

The Superstars do have an influence on Egyptian dancing---especially in the US. How about the rest of the world--for ex. Europe, Japan--has it affected their dancing also? i think the BDUC solo's are Universal(old style american cabaret) and then the Egyptian covers everything else---except for fusion and tribal.

Originally Posted by traveldancer

The Superstars do have an influence on Egyptian dancing---especially in the US. How about the rest of the world--for ex. Europe, Japan--has it affected their dancing also?

You mean as "Egyptian" is perceived in the US I suspect rather than dancing in Egypt - which is where "Egyptian" comes from ..g.:

yeah--so what do we call it---Amer/Egyptian?

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

The "every beat filled in" sounds to me more like cheerleader/jazz/belly dance "shish-boom baah" BDSS choreography that BDSS calls Egyptian. Which has influenced a lot of American dancers.

Yup, but that's really Jillina style, they seem to call their pieces Egyptian if the music is Egyptian, but the dancing is a pretty far cry from Egyptian....the problem is that many people that watch them don't know that.

Originally Posted by gayiii

Yup, but that's really Jillina style, they seem to call their pieces Egyptian if the music is Egyptian, but the dancing is a pretty far cry from Egyptian....the problem is that many people that watch them don't know that.

Well, that might be a problem . . . ..c::

Deborah

Originally Posted by traveldancer

yeah--so what do we call it---Amer/Egyptian?

Hey, that's what I do! I do a very "Americanized" type of Egyptian in that I have the movements, posture, interpretation common to the style, don't have (as far as I know) that "essence" that I personally associate with fabulous Egyptian-ness.

Looooooove Egyptian music. So much of it is absolutely deliciously lush -- and subject to so many interpretations. For example:

Roxxanne here in LA danced to a very famous piece of Egyptian music a few weeks ago at the Sahra Intensive showcase; I, of course, have forgotten the name of the piece, but Roxxanne chose to emphasize a specific "part" in a sequence of music that I don't believe I had seen emphasized before in performance. That "part" (think "soprano, alto, tenor, bass") is very obviously there and was really brought out by her decision to acknowledge it specifically. I was very impressed. Kudos to Roxxanne.

Deborah

Originally Posted by gayiii

Yup, but that's really Jillina style, they seem to call their pieces Egyptian if the music is Egyptian, but the dancing is a pretty far cry from Egyptian....the problem is that many people that watch them don't know that.

This widely held opinion always baffles me.
Jillina's style is actually VERY Reda-influenced. It may not be what folks like to think of as authentic Egyptian, but it is the stage-style Egyptian/Ballet fusion that Reda made famous. Try watching his choreo and comparing; you will see many of the same combinations tweaked a bit.
One of her MAIN teachers was Sahra Saeeda, who was taught by Farida Fahmy.....this influence is extremely apparent and I can never understand the dismissal of Jillina's style when it is descended from a direct Egyptian line.

Reda and Farida, AND Sahra have all made that balletic fusion apparent in their dancing......what is the issue with Jillina's version?

Originally Posted by MelanieLA

This widely held opinion always baffles me.
Jillina's style is actually VERY Reda-influenced. It may not be what folks like to think of as authentic Egyptian, but it is the stage-style Egyptian/Ballet fusion that Reda made famous. Try watching his choreo and comparing; you will see many of the same combinations tweaked a bit.
One of her MAIN teachers was Sahra Saeeda, who was taught by Farida Fahmy.....this influence is extremely apparent and I can never understand the dismissal of Jillina's style when it is descended from a direct Egyptian line.

Reda and Farida, AND Sahra have all made that balletic fusion apparent in their dancing......what is the issue with Jillina's version?

I understand what you're talking about and I understand the lineage. I often see alot of that "essence" I keep mentioning (and can't really define in words) in Jillina herself. My comments, when I think about it more (as I should have before posting), are probably more directed at the group choreos; I get a more western and less ME impression from them. Thinking further, that's probably just in the nature of troupe dancing in general; BD really is a solo sport and we can -- and often do -- lose that eastern feel when we put it into a more western concept.

So I don't wanna leave the impression that I'm dissing Jillina; I guess I often find troupe dancing a bit sterile -- less ME, less Egyptian -- simply because of its nature. I also think that the subtleties that are part of the Egyptian essence are lost in slam-bam BDSS style.

I think I've said it better this time. I hope. ..c::

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

Thinking further, that's probably just in the nature of troupe dancing in general; BD really is a solo sport and we can -- and often do -- lose that eastern feel when we put it into a more western concept.
So I don't wanna leave the impression that I'm dissing Jillina; I guess I often find troupe dancing a bit sterile -- less ME, less Egyptian -- simply because of its nature. Deborah

Ok, but then how do you feel about the Reda Troupe, or Sahra's Ya Amar(of which Roxxanne was a member also)? That is all troupe work.

Sorry, I'm not trying to single you out, I mean to ask this of everyone who has issues with her BDSS choreo. I genuinely don't understand what is meant by "cheerleader" or "shish-boom-baah" or "slam bam" style of BDSS. Her choreographies are very lyrical, and again, are influenced by the technique and basic combinations of the Reda Troupe.

Originally Posted by MelanieLA

Ok, but then how do you feel about the Reda Troupe, or Sahra's Ya Amar(of which Roxxanne was a member also)? That is all troupe work.

Sorry, I'm not trying to single you out, I mean to ask this of everyone who has issues with her BDSS choreo. I genuinely don't understand what is meant by "cheerleader" or "shish-boom-baah" or "slam bam" style of BDSS. Her choreographies are very lyrical, and again, are influenced by the technique and basic combinations of the Reda Troupe.

I know you're not pickin' on me and your question has gotten me to think further. Yay!

Hmmmm . . . perhaps it is the predominant music choice -- upbeat pop (or pop-y modern/classic classics), which necessitates an upbeat dance for it to be lyrical.

Or maybe it's all an impression I have from the few BDSS works I have seen (and only a limited amount of listening to BDSS CDs) and not indicative of the whole?

Or maybe it's just that troupe work is, to me, less indicative of the ME style of presentation. I love well-done group work -- and BDSS is excellently-done group work -- as a foil for soloists in a two-hour show, especially if it's folk/folkloric; and folk/folkloric mostly because it just isn't seen much here. Sahra's dance company immediately comes to mind as group work I really enjoy seeing.

Either way, I think I'll stop typing on this particular subject as I believe my ignorance is showing. .w.:

Thanks for the thought-provoking questions, Melanie. Hope others respond!

Deborah

Yes, I am glad Melanie has brought this view to the discussion, that Jillina as main choreographer for BDSS has much of her style & technique based on Reda Troupe & Sahra Kent, for example. Reread Melanie's posts ( I am) for more insight. I love troupe work, and solo as well. Both beautiful and different ways to present the body's interpretation of music and soul. I've said it before, I love traditional folk dance & have been involved in it as participatory and performance since childhood. For performance it turns into something different than colloquial, because it is boring as entertainment. Entertainment changes the nature of dance for example.
Performance M.E. dance vs colloquial, social, or participatory folk dance are 2 different "animals". Golden Era as well as Modern Egyptian are heavily influenced by the West, yet we view them as "authentic" and yardstick measurements.
I think when we discuss, the lines get blurred sometimes. What dance form are we exactly talking about? How many hairs can be split? Because of course there is not really a black & white scenario.
I do not mean this in a negative way, it is the nature of discussion.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Having said that, there are a lot of dancers--teachers and students--who don't really understand what "Egyptian style" means, and treat it as if it is anything that isn't tribal, Turkish, or obviously fusion. There are a number of very good Egyptian-style teachers out there, but taking a couple of workshops with them (or one workshop each from a couple of different teachers) does not automatically imbue you with authentic "Egyptian-ness." IMHO, the term "Egyptian style" for the average American dancer has unintentionally evolved into what could probably more accurately be called "Westernized Pan-Arab style with a strong Egyptian bias." Achieving authenticity takes a focused effort--understanding how Egyptians hear and respond to music, their posture and body language, and so on. If all a dancer is doing is mimicking that in isolated spots, it's not the same as organically inhabiting the style.

This post makes a lot of sense and really puts me on the right track into knowing what to call what I do. I've taken classes with at least 3 different teachers who all call their style "Egyptian" but who all have *completely* different styles from one another and from all Egyptian dancers I have seen (contemporary or Golden Age). This isn't to diss my teachers and their styles, they are all beautiful in their own way and they all had things to add to my dancing.
But it's very hard to know what to call what I do when I know it's not Egyptian, while most sources from where I learned do call it Egyptian. "Westernized Pan-Arab style with a strong Egyptian bias" describes what I do a lot better.

Originally Posted by LiesaB.

" traditional folk dance.... For performance it turns into something different than colloquial.... Entertainment changes the nature of dance for example.
Performance M.E. dance vs colloquial, social, or participatory folk dance are 2 different "animals". Golden Era as well as Modern Egyptian are heavily influenced by the West, yet we view them as "authentic" and yardstick measurements.

Yes, and I feel like I'm hijacking the thread a bit.....a whole other topic, but it IS related.

I think that the work Jillina did (and does) with the Superstars is extremely important. It has carried the Reda style into this generation of dancers, because if a dancer cares, she will dig and research into Jillina's training background and get to the origin, and a new dancer will discover the Reda troupe (and Ya Amar)....how else might they hear about it? Roxxanne teaches a version of this style and combinations, and tweaks it also.....so unless you study in LA, or have studied with Farida or Reda first-hand, OR with Jillina, a dancer might not ever be exposed to the lyrical style EXCEPT through the BDSS.....I think that's quite important.

Originally Posted by MelanieLA

Yes, and I feel like I'm hijacking the thread a bit.....a whole other topic, but it IS related.

I think that the work Jillina did (and does) with the Superstars is extremely important. It has carried the Reda style into this generation of dancers, because if a dancer cares, she will dig and research into Jillina's training background and get to the origin, and a new dancer will discover the Reda troupe (and Ya Amar)....how else might they hear about it? Roxxanne teaches a version of this style and combinations, and tweaks it also.....so unless you study in LA, or have studied with Farida or Reda first-hand, OR with Jillina, a dancer might not ever be exposed to the lyrical style EXCEPT through the BDSS.....I think that's quite important.

This is not exactly true. We have had Reda himself come to Dallas for many years before the BDSS were a gleam in MC's eye, and many dancers from this area have been exposed to his style.

There is also much Reda-influence in the NYC scene as well, waaaay pre-dating BDSS.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

There is also much Reda-influence in the NYC scene as well, waaaay pre-dating BDSS.

Wasn't Yousry Sharif trained in the Reda Troupe?

I don't have anything against Jillina, but I'm not sure I'd say she "carried the Reda style." She's brought focus to the image of belly dancing as a professional artistic endeavor, and she and MC have helped to expand dance from a small-stage, solo art to a large-stage, multi-performer spectacle, but in the process of doing those things, I think they have inserted an intentional non-Middle-Eastern spin on many things.

The Reda troupe took plenty of liberties with Egyptian dance by introducing balletic ideas and Western stagecraft, but they always gave the impression that they were doing so to "clean it up" and make the inherent content "read" better to an audience. BDSS, on the other hand, presented their innovations as if the point was to alter the essential nature of the dance in the name of being creative. It might be highly artistic and interesting to fuse Egyptian dance with Reggaeton or Polynesian dance, but IMHO, that's not the same thing as what Reda did. I imagine everyday Egyptians watching the Reda Troupe and thinking, "We don't do it that well." I picture them watching BDSS and thinking, "We don't do it that way."

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Wasn't Yousry Sharif trained in the Reda Troupe?

I don't have anything against Jillina, but I'm not sure I'd say she "carried the Reda style." She's brought focus to the image of belly dancing as a professional artistic endeavor, and she and MC have helped to expand dance from a small-stage, solo art to a large-stage, multi-performer spectacle, but in the process of doing those things, I think they have inserted an intentional non-Middle-Eastern spin on many things.

The Reda troupe took plenty of liberties with Egyptian dance by introducing balletic ideas and Western stagecraft, but they always gave the impression that they were doing so to "clean it up" and make the inherent content "read" better to an audience. BDSS, on the other hand, presented their innovations as if the point was to alter the essential nature of the dance in the name of being creative. It might be highly artistic and interesting to fuse Egyptian dance with Reggaeton or Polynesian dance, but IMHO, that's not the same thing as what Reda did. I imagine everyday Egyptians watching the Reda Troupe and thinking, "We don't do it that well." I picture them watching BDSS and thinking, "We don't do it that way."

I wasn't sure, but Ranya Renee credits her study with Yousry in her own development, and I know she's very familiar with Reda-style (I believe she comments on it in her "Modern Oriental" DVD trailer, though I don't yet have the DVD itself).

I totally agree with the rest of your statement.

Whoa, whoa. I was not trying to diss or even discredit Jillina at all. I like Jillina.

Point taken about Mahmoud Reda and Farida Fahmy. You're absolutely right she is of their lineage.
It's a great point and people do forget that.

I recognize her skill and knowledge. And I recognize her Farida fahmy and Reda influence.
However, please show me a BDSS choreography that's lyrical.

I still think she puts an American/Jillina spin on things, for better or worse, especially with BDSS.

Also, when she's by herself, w/o Sahlala or BDSS, she can do a mean Egyptian style, very lyrical, very juicy, emotional etc. Just watch her do an om kalthoum piece.
But I think she purposely doesn't do that with BDSS because Miles doesn't think it's interesting enough perhaps.
I will say this though, the egyptian piece she choreographed for the live in paris dvd I thought has a very big egyptian bias in the dancing.
But her 2nd and 3rd ones are great and have an egyptian spin on it....but I wouldn't call it egyptian style.

Originally Posted by MelanieLA

This widely held opinion always baffles me.
Jillina's style is actually VERY Reda-influenced. It may not be what folks like to think of as authentic Egyptian, but it is the stage-style Egyptian/Ballet fusion that Reda made famous. Try watching his choreo and comparing; you will see many of the same combinations tweaked a bit.
One of her MAIN teachers was Sahra Saeeda, who was taught by Farida Fahmy.....this influence is extremely apparent and I can never understand the dismissal of Jillina's style when it is descended from a direct Egyptian line.

Reda and Farida, AND Sahra have all made that balletic fusion apparent in their dancing......what is the issue with Jillina's version?

Originally Posted by MelanieLA

Ok, but then how do you feel about the Reda Troupe, or Sahra's Ya Amar(of which Roxxanne was a member also)? That is all troupe work.

Sorry, I'm not trying to single you out, I mean to ask this of everyone who has issues with her BDSS choreo. I genuinely don't understand what is meant by "cheerleader" or "shish-boom-baah" or "slam bam" style of BDSS. Her choreographies are very lyrical, and again, are influenced by the technique and basic combinations of the Reda Troupe.

Originally Posted by MelanieLA

Yes, and I feel like I'm hijacking the thread a bit.....a whole other topic, but it IS related.

I think that the work Jillina did (and does) with the Superstars is extremely important. It has carried the Reda style into this generation of dancers, because if a dancer cares, she will dig and research into Jillina's training background and get to the origin, and a new dancer will discover the Reda troupe (and Ya Amar)....how else might they hear about it? Roxxanne teaches a version of this style and combinations, and tweaks it also.....so unless you study in LA, or have studied with Farida or Reda first-hand, OR with Jillina, a dancer might not ever be exposed to the lyrical style EXCEPT through the BDSS.....I think that's quite important.

I do see what you're saying...but honestly with the bolded, I think you're reaching a bit.

People are less likely to dig into her history and find out who Mahmoud Reda is and how important he is, than they are to just copy her choreographies or something.

Again, not trying to downplay Jillina.

And I'm curious to see this lyrical style you speak of? I just don't know exactly what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

This is not exactly true. We have had Reda himself come to Dallas for many years before the BDSS were a gleam in MC's eye, and many dancers from this area have been exposed to his style.

There is also much Reda-influence in the NYC scene as well, waaaay pre-dating BDSS.

Yes, that's true, thank you for that clarification. I'm more speaking about the fans of BDSS that some said wouldn't understand they are not watching Egyptian....many are more into fusion, so her choreographies have hopefully piqued interest in her training, which would lead back to classic Reda.

gayiii: "However, please show me a BDSS choreography that's lyrical." "And I'm curious to see this lyrical style you speak of? I just don't know exactly what you are talking about."

I don't understand what you're asking, but perhaps it's semantics. Jillina's choreography is a fusion of ballet, jazz, modern, and Raqs Sharqi. Some people call this "contemporary", others "lyrical". I hope that answers your questions.



gayiii:"People are less likely to dig into her history and find out who Mahmoud Reda is and how important he is, than they are to just copy her choreographies or something."

I think that if a dancer is serious, and comes from a background of dance (where you are expected to know your history and origins), and her first exposure to "Egyptian" dance is Jillina, she WILL dig and then will find a solid Egyptian foundation. And that's a good thing.