Thread: Baladi Fusion?

I'm a newbie in bellydance and have been studying various styles these past few weeks. I find I'm drawn to Baladi and the whole beautiful earthiness of the moves. I'm curious though, has this ever been fused with Tribal Style Bellydance? I also love this style as well. Or is this a big No No? What are your thoughts on this? ..c::

There is a video of Rachel Brice dancing to baladi music. I don't remember much about it - just remembering seeing it. She wasn't doing "baladi" though.

it's like, would it still be flamenco, if you weren't wearing a flamenco dress or doing flamenco movements, but you still used flamenco music?

I'd say Bal-Anat, and later Hahbi 'Ru, both attempted to merge traditional ME folkloric/social dancing with some of the concepts that eventually evolved into "tribal," but I'm not sure if that's what you're asking. Do you mean "tribal" in the ATS sense of cued group improv? Contemporary tribal fusion done by soloists? Something else?

Yes, ATS or ITS style movements. Is what I am meaning. My teacher is a wonderful Egyptian/Cabaret style instructor . I started studying the different styles recently to learn more and have been watching FCBD and Gypsy Caravan format. I then stumbled across Baladi and fell in love! I am wondering how these movements might be fused together, if possible?

I'm definitely not an authority on ATS, but I'm aware that the posture is very specific and not at all the same as how a native performer would hold/move her body when dancing. The sense of musical interpretation and flow of energy are different, too. There is some overlap in the movement vocabulary (e.g., hip drops), and you may see tribal troupes dancing to baladi music, but I think the two concepts are about as independent as it's possible to be while still staying under the umbrella of "belly dance."

Plenty of people experiment with fusing the two styles, though. Of the two videos below, the first is very tribal with heavily tribal-ized traditional-style music, and the second one is more fakelore "ethnic" and less ATS looking to me. (I'm pretty sure Hahbi 'Ru is doing choreography, not cued improv in that clip, but by virtue of their pedigree, they share some common roots with ATS, and they tend to be one of the better examples of California proto-tribal, so that's why I've included them.)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNVGoNm3xTU]YouTube - derwood green at majma[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxCNYH0yHB4]YouTube - Hahbi-Ru Renn Faire 2002 "Pot Dance"[/ame]

What Tourbeau said. My own personal opinion is that baladi is purely folkloric although folk dancing has been fused somewhat in other types of bellydance, i.e., saiidi steps in cabaret dancing is seen frequently.

But I absolutely adore baladi and my personal preference is to see it in its "original" form.

Originally Posted by fairyqueen

I'm a newbie in bellydance and have been studying various styles these past few weeks. I find I'm drawn to Baladi and the whole beautiful earthiness of the moves. I'm curious though, has this ever been fused with Tribal Style Bellydance? I also love this style as well. Or is this a big No No? What are your thoughts on this? ..c::

Fused how? Are you talking about Tribal Fusion style belly dance (solo) or Improvisational Tribal Style (group improv)? Doing baladi style dancing to baladi music in Tribal Fusion costuming? Dressing baladi and using baladi moves to TF style music?

The moves, posture, and the attitude of Tribal Fusion seem like they would be difficult to mesh with the relaxed earthiness of baladi style to me - it'd be like trying to fuse tap dancing with a Viennese Waltz.

Group Tribal style can be folkloric-ly based, but baladi is typically danced solo, as it's one person's interpretation of the music, so I'm not sure how you'd accomplish that.

Also, Tribal Fusion is already fusion...

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Fused how? Are you talking about Tribal Fusion style belly dance (solo) or Improvisational Tribal Style (group improv)? Doing baladi style dancing to baladi music in Tribal Fusion costuming? Dressing baladi and using baladi moves to TF style music?

Any of the above. I curious if this has been done?

The moves, posture, and the attitude of Tribal Fusion seem like they would be difficult to mesh with the relaxed earthiness of baladi style to me - it'd be like trying to fuse tap dancing with a Viennese Waltz.

I think you might be right, mind you, but I'm still very new at this and learning :)

Group Tribal style can be folkloric-ly based, but baladi is typically danced solo, as it's one person's interpretation of the music, so I'm not sure how you'd accomplish that.

Also, Tribal Fusion is already fusion...

Yes, yes, I can see the difficulty, but am ever curious

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I'm definitely not an authority on ATS, but I'm aware that the posture is very specific and not at all the same as how a native performer would hold/move her body when dancing. The sense of musical interpretation and flow of energy are different, too. There is some overlap in the movement vocabulary (e.g., hip drops), and you may see tribal troupes dancing to baladi music, but I think the two concepts are about as independent as it's possible to be while still staying under the umbrella of "belly dance."

Plenty of people experiment with fusing the two styles, though. Of the two videos below, the first is very tribal with heavily tribal-ized traditional-style music, and the second one is more fakelore "ethnic" and less ATS looking to me. (I'm pretty sure Hahbi 'Ru is doing choreography, not cued improv in that clip, but by virtue of their pedigree, they share some common roots with ATS, and they tend to be one of the better examples of California proto-tribal, so that's why I've included them.)

YouTube - derwood green at majma
YouTube - Hahbi-Ru Renn Faire 2002 "Pot Dance"

Thanks so much for these examples! I can see how it would be difficult but I thought, what the h#$ll ? It doesn't hurt to ask!..l;,

If you like them both, then learn them both, separately. When you are proficient at each you may have a better idea of how or whether you can/should fuse them.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

If you like them both, then learn them both, separately. When you are proficient at each you may have a better idea of how or whether you can/should fuse them.

Oh, I definately agree! I just didn't know if this had been done before. I've seen so much stuff fused lately and just had to ask if this has been done. I myself have a looooooong way to go, just taking classes and practicing at home.

As I'm thinking about it, I'm wondering if anyone has tried to put together a tribal piece to the quintessential baladi example of an accordion taqsim/progression. I should think it would be quite difficult to do an ATS performance to that sort of song, because that style of instrumental virtuosity commands such a personalized and spontaneous interpretation of the music. Putting a group of people on stage and having each of them improvise simultaneously sounds like a recipe for eye chaos to me, and anything less--or more rehearsed--would destroy the spirit of it. Has anyone ever seen it attempted?

See? Makes ya wonder? It could be good or very, very bad! Lol..Hmmm?

The essence of beledi is the simple movement vocabulary (simple, low arms and no backbends for a start) and the strong connection and emotional expression of the music. I cannot see how this would work for group improv at all! Why slaughter a perfectly good dance form? If you like both - study both - and perform them separately.

I love both. However, to me part of the beauty of ATS is in its Structure. . . its form and posture and that "regalness", even while being earthy. Baladi, while it has an earthyness as well, is "loose" and gooey. . . very opposite ends of the spectrum and I cant see how you would combine them without loosing the soul of one or the other (or both).

There is a performance by Carolena Nericcio on the San Francisco Beledi DVD to (I believe)Aament Bellah. She had heard that tune years ago, and it very much touched her. So, for that show, she danced a solo to it. Her dancing is definitely not Egyptian, not at all, but one can see that she deeply feels the music and expresses it with her dance vocabulary, which is mostly ATS, but she has sponsored workshops with e.g. Aisha Ali in her studio many times. It is actually mighty cool to see (although the ethnic police will risk a minor stroke watching such heresy). I am 100% certain that she would make absolutely no claim whatsoever at all that she does anything authentic.

I think you could dance and ATS style piece to a piece of baladi music and have it work (as in your comments re: Carolena, Steffi). What I question, however, is blending ATS with beledi style dance. . . I think one or the other or both would get lost.

Originally Posted by NazirahDances

I think you could dance and ATS style piece to a piece of baladi music and have it work (as in your comments re: Carolena, Steffi). What I question, however, is blending ATS with beledi style dance. . . I think one or the other or both would get lost.

Yes, Beledi is much more than dancing to beledi music. It is how you dance to it. If you don't dance it in a beledi style it isn't beledi - so it wouldn't be a fusion.

Indeed, dancing group improv to a beledi piece of music and somehow attempting to maintaining the spirit of beledi is not a good idea. The "gospel of ATS" is that one should respect and understand the music and pick accordingly. A lot of esp. Egyptian music tends to require the kind of emotional response that can not be accomplished by a group, and especially not when one's attention is so much on doing the improv part. As discussed here, that applies in particular to beledi. That's why ATS/ITS troupes usually pick simpler tunes and folk songs - it's not that the dancers don't understand or appreciate other music, but they understand what music is not appropriate.

Now, when it comes to the field of tribal fusion dancing, I can imagine that one can fuse beledi and tribal. I am not fluent enough in either to suggest a way though, it would require somebody who really understands both well. Recently, I saw a performance by Ashara in which she somehow managed to take Egyptian and Goth-Tribal and bring them together in a way that worked (or at least I thought so, and I am a hard sell for fusion), so my guess is that with proper study, one can tackle beledi.

Originally Posted by kashmir

Yes, Beledi is much more than dancing to beledi music. It is how you dance to it. If you don't dance it in a beledi style it isn't beledi - so it wouldn't be a fusion.

That's what I was thinking. Archetypically speaking, the cute, sassy bint el-beled and the dark, aloof tribal fusionistadore probably wouldn't be BFF's, IRL.

Not that opposites can't attract, but it just seems like an oil-and-water type of pairing.

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

That's what I was thinking. Archetypically speaking, the cute, sassy bint el-beled and the dark, aloof tribal fusionistadore probably wouldn't be BFF's, IRL.

I don't think that (good) tribal fusion has to be dark by definition - it just that a lot of *bad* fusion is teenage angst gone bad.

Well this is where I thought of using some of the Tribal moves, but dancing them in an earthy and free Baladi style.

Originally Posted by steffib

I don't think that (good) tribal fusion has to be dark by definition - it just that a lot of *bad* fusion is teenage angst gone bad.

Maybe I just haven't seen a whole lot of the good stuff lately .w.:

Originally Posted by fairyqueen

Well this is where I thought of using some of the Tribal moves, but dancing them in an earthy and free Baladi style.

I think that is the sticking point for most people. "Earthy and free" Baladi style (posture, attitude, musical interpretation) is not particularly compatible with the elegant formality of ATS style. It's like saying that there are some styles of African dance that are based on rhythmic footwork, and you could apply them to Celtic music, but it would make about as much sense as Riverdancing to African drums. You could do it, and you might even be able to do it in an interesting and artistic way, but generally speaking, it would be pretty hard to pull off without doing a disservice to one style, if not both of them.

Originally Posted by steffib

I don't think that (good) tribal fusion has to be dark by definition - it just that a lot of *bad* fusion is teenage angst gone bad.

..l;, I agree, and that's a very good way to put it!

Originally Posted by fairyqueen

Well this is where I thought of using some of the Tribal moves, but dancing them in an earthy and free Baladi style.

I'd be curious to know what you mean by "Tribal moves". Those that maintain Tribal is a type of belly dance always say that the movement vocab is the same. What moves does Tribal have that are not already in the beledi vocab? (apart from snake arms, head slides and back bends)

Originally Posted by fairyqueen

Well this is where I thought of using some of the Tribal moves, but dancing them in an earthy and free Baladi style.

Check out Ranya Renee's Baladi DVD (2 disc set, WorlddanceNewYork; Amazon). Really gives the lowdown on Baladi style, music, movements, etc. Which tribal moves are you thinking of...or do you mean more of an attitude of position; as in the very deliberate look & pacing of tribal - attitude meets attitude! hmmm sometimes these questions give me pause to reexamine exactly what my ideas are of the projected styles. I could probably answer What is Baladi? more specifically than What is Tribal? And now with Carolena Nericchio's very clear ATS as a certified technique - I am not so sure I include ATS is the broad "Tribal" category, even tho it spurred the current movement in large part. I don't see Tribal style as being based on improvisational group any more. Frankly my impression is that most people think Rachel Brice, Kami Liddle, Asharah, Ariellah, Sharon Kihara,...Is Unmata tribal fusion?... when they think tribal. Is that what you are thinking of when you think of fusing tribal with baladi? Or am I making a hasty assumption?

Now, now I'm totally a newbie at learning moves everyone, and I may see moves that are the same, but look different between Tribal, Cabaret, Baladi etc... I'm still trying to figure this all out. I do notice with some Tribal, how the women move and sway together, like a flock of birds, it seems almost...intuitive to me how they can connect. The Baladi, to me, feels more spontaneous and connected from within. Am I making sense?

Originally Posted by LiesaB.

Check out Ranya Renee's Baladi DVD (2 disc set, WorlddanceNewYork; Amazon). Really gives the lowdown on Baladi style, music, movements, etc. Which tribal moves are you thinking of...or do you mean more of an attitude of position; as in the very deliberate look & pacing of tribal - attitude meets attitude! hmmm sometimes these questions give me pause to reexamine exactly what my ideas are of the projected styles. I could probably answer What is Baladi? more specifically than What is Tribal? And now with Carolena Nericchio's very clear ATS as a certified technique - I am not so sure I include ATS is the broad "Tribal" category, even tho it spurred the current movement in large part. I don't see Tribal style as being based on improvisational group any more. Frankly my impression is that most people think Rachel Brice, Kami Liddle, Asharah, Ariellah, Sharon Kihara,...Is Unmata tribal fusion?... when they think tribal. Is that what you are thinking of when you think of fusing tribal with baladi? Or am I making a hasty assumption?

Yes, I've seen this and I think I'm going to order it!

Another thing to keep in mind is that "baladi" is supposed to conjure up a very vivid sense of "down-home country" and dancing "just like one of us," which is extremely difficult to fully realize as an outsider to the culture. I'm not saying Ranya's DVD isn't good (it's an outstanding reference, and one of the few products on the market that is pretty much universally well received), but she doesn't represent the total experience of all Egyptians. If you come from a familial experience that doesn't look like what she's doing, she won't look "baladi" to you--she'll just look like another foreigner belly dancing pretty well but not quite the way you're used to seeing it. It's sort of like asking which American accent is the "real" one: Boston "chowdah"? Noo Yawk? Tennessee twang? Michigan Yooper? California Valley Girl? They're all equally authentic expressions of American English, but which one feels like "home" to you is a matter of your personal experience. There isn't one "home" for everybody. As a result, anybody who undertakes the presentation of the baladi style is already faced with an uphill challenge.

In this case, what I'm saying is that the more new elements you introduce into baladi-style dancing, the less "baladi" it will become by default to the people who defines what "baladi" is. You could still do something artistically valid as baladi fusion, but fusing things with it inherently undermines its cultural essence. If you're doing this for an audience of dancers, then they may be receptive to it. A GP audience may be confused. An Arab audience may be offended by what they perceive as cluelessness. At the very least, you have to make sure your audience understands that you know what you're doing isn't pure baladi style and that you've made intentional alternative choices in your presentation.