Thread: Dance of the seven veils = No

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Isn't there also the idea that the 7 veils mythos is tied to Ishtar and her descent into the underworld? It totally changes the dynamic of the 7 veils routine to characterize it this way, as each of the veils is symbolic of leaving a piece of her mortal existence behind (or something - it's been awhile since I've read about it) - couldn't you include that in any program notes should one choose to do a 7 veils dance?

Yes and no. Some people tie the "seven veils" concept to Ishtar's Descent, but I don't know whether there's any clear evidence that the myth was part of Wilde's inspiration.

In the story, Ishtar/Inanna isn't removing seven veils, but seven different items of apparel that represent her mes, or divine powers. One for each gate into the netherworld. Without the emblems of her power, she's vulnerable, and her sister, Ereshkigal, is able to kill her.

I would politely request that those who perform seven veil routines leave the Ishtar explanation out, as the story of her descent into the netherworld is so wildly misinterpreted. For contrast:

Total Fabrication

vs.

Translation of the Original Sumerian Text

I hope you don't feel pressured either way, Mahira...but you did ask us for our thoughts & you are getting a variety of them so you can make a good decision :)

I just think it would actually be a fun challenge rather than something prurient. One way to challenge a stereotype is to tackle it head on.

But if it truly makes you uncomfortable then I suggest the number 0 or 8 as far as movements go. I think the idea of rhythms is a fun one but perhaps too obscure for an occasion like this.

Even though you enjoy doing veil, I can understand not wanting to feed the stereotype.

I think I'd handle it by coming up with two or three different ideas to suit the "numbers" theme. I would then try to have a diplomatic face-to-face with the organizer (or at the least, voice-to-voice, but NOT email which can be easily misunderstood). In that conversation, I would say something like this:

"Y'know, I've been thinking about this 7-veils idea, and I think I'd rather do something else that isn't so much of a stereotype. It would be more exciting for me as an artist to do something less predictable. I have a couple of other ideas to propose instead. How about ____, or maybe ____?"

I like the rhythms suggestion others have explored on this thread.

Another option might be to pick a piece of music played by a duet of musicians, such as Mary Ellen Donald's "Gems" series or the CD's by Sirocco, using the theme of "two". You could wear two circle skirts, and dance either double sword or double cane or double veil.

Or, for the number 9, you could dance a fiery piece to a Turkish 9/8 rhythm.

Or, for the number 3, you could do a 3-parter with short high-energy entrance song, dreamy taqsim, and energetic drum solo.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Isn't there also the idea that the 7 veils mythos is tied to Ishtar and her descent into the underworld?

Not that I've ever seen. I happen to have a personal interest in ancient cultures,and I find Inanna/Ishtar to be a fascinating character, so I've done a lot of reading on her. The *only* place I've ever seen the theory tying the dance of the seven veils to Inanna's/Ishtar's descent has been Serpent of the Nile, and there is no footnote to indicate where the author got this idea.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

It totally changes the dynamic of the 7 veils routine to characterize it this way, as each of the veils is symbolic of leaving a piece of her mortal existence behind (or something - it's been awhile since I've read about it) - couldn't you include that in any program notes should one choose to do a 7 veils dance?

In the oldest version of the myth I've been able to find in my reading, the 7 items left behind are items symbolizing power, kingship. Stuff like a scepter, a necklace, etc. Only one item, a robe, is actually a garment. So, to me the myth tells of a person being stripped of their power and dignity bit by bit, until she reaches a nadir.... and then, when all seems hopeless, a faithful friend (Ninshuber) finds the means to bring her back from the brink.

Yes, I could see how a dancer could use veils to represent the items left at each gate if she wanted to explore such a theme. I personally would probably prefer to eschew the veils and use items more closely representing the items in the myth - necklaces, measuring rod & line, etc., and I wouldn't wear a belly dance costume for such a performance. But I realize other people's artistic inspirations could take them in a veil direction.

You could do infinity instead of zero - all those vertical figure eights!

This was Isidora Bushkovski and Ariellah in an interpretation of the dance of the seven veils as Inanna's descent into the underworld:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWXxJwAbUCA"]YouTube- Isidora Bushkovski w/ Ariellah (UPDATED) @ Northern Lights[/ame]

Thank you for the ideas ladies.

Though the actuality of talented Bellydancers doing a 7 veil dance can be very beautiful, my preference is same as MahiraRaqs, that I feel it feeds into a cliche. Yes, we are allowed to do cliches or explore literary concepts and some of the veil suggestions were great. But some of us still prefer not to do a routine identified with the 7 veil concept.
I like to use cliches sometimes in a goofy, tonque-in-cheek way, but that is a different animal. And people don't always get tonque-in-cheek.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Isn't there also the idea that the 7 veils mythos is tied to Ishtar and her descent into the underworld? It totally changes the dynamic of the 7 veils routine to characterize it this way, as each of the veils is symbolic of leaving a piece of her mortal existence behind (or something - it's been awhile since I've read about it) - couldn't you include that in any program notes should one choose to do a 7 veils dance?

The only historical connection between the descent of Ishtar or Innana and Salome's dance is the number 7, which as other people have already pointed out, is a pretty common magical number (seven days a week!)

The Bible does not describe Salome's dance or even mention her name, and there's nary a trace of a veil, never mind 7. Salome is mentioned by name in Roman historical records. But those records never mention dancing or John the Baptists death.

The first written record connecting Salomes dance with 7 veils is Oscar Wildes play. Orientalism was all the rage. In the original myth Innana passes 7 gates and sheds an item at each gate (staff, wig, jewelry, etc) arriving naked at the end of her journey. Pretty sexy stuff for the Victorian age! Was that what Oscar was thinking about? We don't know.

In the late 20th century, New Age Spirituality tied the Oscar Wilde 7 veils idea with the older Ishtar/Inanna myth.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Not that I've ever seen. I happen to have a personal interest in ancient cultures,and I find Inanna/Ishtar to be a fascinating character, so I've done a lot of reading on her. The *only* place I've ever seen the theory tying the dance of the seven veils to Inanna's/Ishtar's descent has been Serpent of the Nile, and there is no footnote to indicate where the author got this idea.

I've seen it in a handful of other places, usually connected with a New Age kind of theme. Maybe Barbara Walker came up with the idea, I think it was in her Womens Encylopedia of Myths or something like that

I've seen, and was taught, how to perform the dance of the seven veils by my first instructor Mahisha. Wow could she work a veil. In no way did I ever consider it a strip tease or 'removing' ..maybe it was the air about her.

Our advanced troupe learned the dance of the seven veils way back when. We used one in hands as entrance, one twisted and tied as a headband on top of another one that partially covered our face (that's three) we had double veils (of course) , one criss crossed and tucked at hips, the final one tucked in hips

One thing we were taught is that it was very useful to have different colored veils and different fabrics. If you memorize the color sequence of your veils, you know which edge to grab next. And of course you don't want to 'look down' to find it. You want to tuck your edges secure enough where they don't fall out but not so much you tug one and they all come out.

Although I am not doing much custom work right now, I do enjoy making a series of SEVEN VEILS

I make a set specific to the islands of Hawaii..each veil is representative of each island. They are swirled style veils (no white, fully saturated colors...think lava, jungle, water, rainbow, etc). When I have performed this dance in the past, at parties, the 'receiver' will be gifted the Mahalo veil at the end of the show. It's my own bellyfusion I suppose.

I also dye seven veils that are the colors of the rainbow, red orange yellow green blue indigo purple.

Oh and when I first started dyeing and dancing I did veils that were representative of the different times of day...morning sunrise, blue skies, cloudy monsoon showers, sunset, midnight with stars, etc

Since i'm a huge fan of silks and seven veils I'm always happy to entertain the thought of doing a set for someone.

akaisilksinfo@yahoo.com
www.picturegallery.com/akaisilks

i LOVE taxims, so i'd go with the number zero, but that's me. i also like the 9/8 etc ideas.
you could do 7 veils, but instead of discarding them you could add them in, like reverse stripping! ^_~

I have seen a couple of people do gorgeous ones that are classy. Although the connotation is there not ALWAYS the association if done well.
Katia of Boston has a beautiful one on her video series "Dance Katia Dance" and i also saw Tamalyn Dahlal do one at a Little Egypt show a few years back that was great!
Hopefully you can get a hold of these and get some inspiration!
xoxo,
-NJ

We have discussed this before.
And I'll restate my personal (repeat personal view) and that is that DSV is NOT a belly dance performance ( there is no tradition of it in ME/Turkish dance) but it can be a perfectly pleasant and entrancing piece of dance theatre based on Wilde's Salome.
Labelled correctly in any show. YES.
As representing belly dance NO.

In terms of your original question, I would tell the organizer that this particular thing isn't something you do, but you'd be happy to do something else. I'd give suggestions. I like the rhythms idea a lot, and I think there's something nice about a double prop, like double veil or double fan veil. There's the wow factor of being surprised that there are two of them instead of just one.

Can I just throw a comment in here that "Numbers" seems like kind of a tough theme?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

If you're uncomfortable with the idea because it involves taking veils off, what if you just pulled seven veils out of a basket one at a time and danced with them? For that matter, you could recruit two accomplices to hold a clothesline and arrange your seven veils that way. It's a made-up dance anyway, so it's not like there are rules for it.

Ok, I confess that I have only skimmed most of this so I possibly missed someone else saying the same thing here... but the clothesline idea is actually pretty ingenius as is could completely redefine your dance space... similar to when Virginia dances in front of the tri mirrors on stage... it really focuses the audiences & brings it to a much more intimate atmosphere even tho the only thing that really changed was the presence of that mirror... that's something neat to explore regardless of your decision to dance the 7 veils...

Plus, in a way it makes fun of the 7 veils idea in a very clever way.. like it.

I may just have to take this on as a fun challenge :)

Originally Posted by tigerb

I like the rhythmic ideas here! How cool! And it would be really great to do an audience participation thing... one where you could get them to clap something really simple, then more and more difficult.

For a more whimsical take, should that interest you, may I suggest one of the School House Rock number songs?
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schoolhouse_Rock]Schoolhouse Rock! - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]!

The figure 8 song starts rather dreamy and pretty:
Multiplication Rock - Eight
Schoolhouse Rock - Figure Eight - Totlol - Video for Kids

Then there's a upbeat section, then it returns to the main theme.

...and since figure 8s show up so heavily in our dance it's appropriate!

This cracks me up. One of my teachers suggested taking one move and making a dance out of it. The song Figure Eight came to mind and I started working on it last week, then I read this. How synchronistic. So, I just came out of lurking status to write this!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

In the oldest version of the myth I've been able to find in my reading, the 7 items left behind are items symbolizing power, kingship. Stuff like a scepter, a necklace, etc. Only one item, a robe, is actually a garment. So, to me the myth tells of a person being stripped of their power and dignity bit by bit, until she reaches a nadir.... and then, when all seems hopeless, a faithful friend (Ninshuber) finds the means to bring her back from the brink.

Ohhhh... that would make great theater. Bellydance... maybe, but theater yes. ..g.:

I'm totally with you on not feeding the stereotype or producing anything cliched. I Love some of the ideas on here - innovative and informative.

I have seen a few 7 veils attempts. My exeperience is that so many veils ineveitabley take over from the dancing. I have also observed that swathing one-self in large numbers if veils is rarely a 'good look' - it does tend to make the dancer look either like a ghost or, worse, a giant, chiffon-swathed turnip.

I think this is one of those situations where, if you do decide to go down the 7 veils fantasy route, then less is more (but not in a clothing removal sense of course !)