Thread: Dance of the seven veils = No

So I have been asked to dance in a regular dance show (meaning not a bellydance show) as a guest artist. The theme is Numbers. I don't know what to do that would follow this theme. The organizer emailed me all excited that she had this great idea for me. The Dance of the Seven Veils. I cringed when I read this. I do not like that idea as I find it to be another stereotype for bellydancers. I don't want to do this. Even if I did it well and in good taste, I feel it feeds the stereotype. I want to reply to her in a way without sounding like I'm lecturing and then follow it up with another idea, but I'm stumped and now a little rubbed the wrong way, I guess. So, any ideas?

sorry, no, as i would probably go with the idea, but then you know, make something nice out of it... plenty of bellydancers have a 7 veil routine (i think leyla jouvana teaches one)...

yes, it's a cliché, but so is plenty of stuff we do ;-)

How about combining two sets of Akai 1/2 circs (let's see, four so far ...) one normal rectangle, and one extra-long four yard rectangle as in Shoshanna's vid, and a spectactular entrance veil..... 7 ..... LOL, just kidding -- sort of...... I have a friend who used to do a seven-veil piece, and it was actually very nice.

I have seen some lovely 7-veil dances that are more about the beauty of the veils than about the Salome story. Tamalyn Dallal and Elisa Gamal have both done beautiful versions of the dance that are all about the veils and not at all about that narrative.

But if you are not a veil person, how about suggesting some unusual rhythms, like 7/8 or 9/8 or 10/8? Western audiences are not that used to hearing these, and they are lovely to dance to.

Interesting idea. I think it would be neat to choose the number Zero and then dance to a full tasqim. Or is that too abstract?

If you're stuck doing the seven veils thing, maybe ask if you can include something in the program notes about it - ? That way you get a chance to educate the public.

I am a veil person, very much so, I just don't like the idea of doing something that feeds that stereotype.

Taxim could be a very beautiful and unusual use of "zero"!

How about using a medley featuring several different time signatures: 2/4, 4/4, 6/8, 7/8, 8/8, 9/8, 13/8?

I've seen the dance of the 7 veils done very nicely; aside from not having worked out the logistics of 7 veils myself, I'd do it, and I wouldn't have a problem with anyone else doing it either.

Sarah Skinner has a 7 veils dvd with a routine which is very tasteful (in my opinion) except it has a bit of saucy floorwork at the end which would look ridiculous if I did it, but it was easy to substitute something else.

How about using zills. Something where the normal zill pattern is punctuated with a strong 1,2. at the end of a musical phrase. Or build on the number progression as an accent as the song progresses(assuming the song had a nifty period of silence that would accommodate a rapid....1,2,3,3,5,6,7 ). Am I making any sense here. It would rather look like a childrens counting lesson but done with an attidute...it could be really cute. And the song could be run thru software to accomplish a longer and longer period of silence at the end of a phrase. You may even have an opportunity for audience paticipation in clapping along. Ok...I just sold myself. Gonna go look for a song to do this with.

Originally Posted by MahiraRaqs

So I have been asked to dance in a regular dance show (meaning not a bellydance show) as a guest artist. The theme is Numbers. I don't know what to do that would follow this theme. The organizer emailed me all excited that she had this great idea for me. The Dance of the Seven Veils. I cringed when I read this. I do not like that idea as I find it to be another stereotype for bellydancers. I don't want to do this. Even if I did it well and in good taste, I feel it feeds the stereotype. I want to reply to her in a way without sounding like I'm lecturing and then follow it up with another idea, but I'm stumped and now a little rubbed the wrong way, I guess. So, any ideas?

If you want some ammunition, this article is great:
God Belly Danced part III, by Qan Tuppim for the Gilded Serpent

Shira's article is a little more accessible:
Dance of the Seven Veils


Bullet points:

- the dance of the 7 veils was an invention of Irish writer Oscar Wilde in his play Salome (the biblical account doesn't mention a dance of the 7 veils; it just says she danced)

- western (non-bellydance) presentations of the play and opera gave the general public an idea that there was some kind of stripping involved, but this is contrary to the biblical story of Salome (in which the words used make it clear that Salome was a young child doing an innocent dance)

- there is no middle eastern tradition for it

- while some dancers have chosen to use the theme for theatrical pieces, many feel uncomfortable doing so (even in a very family-friendly way) because they feel it reinforces stereotypes

Originally Posted by jmdruadh

If you want some ammunition, this article is great:
God Belly Danced part III, by Qan Tuppim for the Gilded Serpent

Shira's article is a little more accessible:
Dance of the Seven Veils


Bullet points:

- the dance of the 7 veils was an invention of Irish writer Oscar Wilde in his play Salome (the biblical account doesn't mention a dance of the 7 veils; it just says she danced)

- western (non-bellydance) presentations of the play and opera gave the general public an idea that there was some kind of stripping involved, but this is contrary to the biblical story of Salome (in which the words used make it clear that Salome was a young child doing an innocent dance)

- there is no middle eastern tradition for it

- while some dancers have chosen to use the theme for theatrical pieces, many feel uncomfortable doing so (even in a very family-friendly way) because they feel it reinforces stereotypes

So, we should never explore literary themes in our dances?

What about Pharaonic dances which are totally made up and cater to the many stereotypes we have about dance and life in ancient Egypt?

Should we never portray Cleopatra, or Cleopatra-syle characters in costuming or in theatrical dances - she DID use sex as a political tool - how does this feed into stereotypes about women?

Originally Posted by anala

How about using zills. Something where the normal zill pattern is punctuated with a strong 1,2. at the end of a musical phrase. Or build on the number progression as an accent as the song progresses(assuming the song had a nifty period of silence that would accommodate a rapid....1,2,3,3,5,6,7 ). Am I making any sense here. It would rather look like a childrens counting lesson but done with an attidute...it could be really cute. And the song could be run thru software to accomplish a longer and longer period of silence at the end of a phrase. You may even have an opportunity for audience paticipation in clapping along. Ok...I just sold myself. Gonna go look for a song to do this with.

I really like this idea Anala. Hhhmmmm, what song....

I like the rhythmic ideas here! How cool! And it would be really great to do an audience participation thing... one where you could get them to clap something really simple, then more and more difficult.

For a more whimsical take, should that interest you, may I suggest one of the School House Rock number songs?
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schoolhouse_Rock]Schoolhouse Rock! - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]!

The figure 8 song starts rather dreamy and pretty:
Multiplication Rock - Eight
Schoolhouse Rock - Figure Eight - Totlol - Video for Kids

Then there's a upbeat section, then it returns to the main theme.

...and since figure 8s show up so heavily in our dance it's appropriate!

I like the zero idea. You could focus the choreo on all kinds of circles--hip circles, chest circles, etc.

If you're uncomfortable with the idea because it involves taking veils off, what if you just pulled seven veils out of a basket one at a time and danced with them? For that matter, you could recruit two accomplices to hold a clothesline and arrange your seven veils that way. It's a made-up dance anyway, so it's not like there are rules for it.

Ooo I like Tourbeau's idea...bring a coat rack out and have all the veils hanging on it, just dance with one or two at a time?

I like the time signatures idea: you could do any variation on this you like, from a straight-ahead Turkish 9/8 to a drum solo that divides and subdivides the rhythmic ideas all sorts of ways.

Originally Posted by yaalini

Ooo I like Tourbeau's idea...bring a coat rack out and have all the veils hanging on it, just dance with one or two at a time?

I might be willing to do something like this. Maybe start out with all the veils on the floor in a circle. Dance around and pick one up, dance with it then drop it, grab another, and so on.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

So, we should never explore literary themes in our dances?

What about Pharaonic dances which are totally made up and cater to the many stereotypes we have about dance and life in ancient Egypt?

Should we never portray Cleopatra, or Cleopatra-syle characters in costuming or in theatrical dances - she DID use sex as a political tool - how does this feed into stereotypes about women?

I think literary themes are wonderful to explore and they give dance cultural level.
As a literary scholar (having written about and taught Salome's texts - not only Oscar Wilde's), I don't think that the expression "seven veils" can be interpreted literally. There is no description of the dance in the text. "Seven veils" is like "seven seas", "seven wonders" or "seven dwarfs". From my point of view, it means she danced every way she knew (in order to get what she wanted).

Incidentally, I totally want to see the "modern Shirley Temple does a completely G-rated dance of the seven veils (or veil-like handkerchiefs, considering the size of the little dancer)".

All wonderful ideas here. Are they printing a program? If so, you can explain the literary history of the 7 veils piece. It will be beautiful, I'm sure, AND you'd be educating the public.

Originally Posted by SamiraShuruk

All wonderful ideas here. Are they printing a program? If so, you can explain the literary history of the 7 veils piece. It will be beautiful, I'm sure, AND you'd be educating the public.

Isn't there also the idea that the 7 veils mythos is tied to Ishtar and her descent into the underworld? It totally changes the dynamic of the 7 veils routine to characterize it this way, as each of the veils is symbolic of leaving a piece of her mortal existence behind (or something - it's been awhile since I've read about it) - couldn't you include that in any program notes should one choose to do a 7 veils dance?

Mahira, I like when you do a three part theme using veil, zills and then just yourself. Would that qualify? Because it definitely comes across as a three part act. Or does it have to be seven?

BTW, I would cringe too.

Yasmina Ramzy has something about this on the back of her Descent of Ishtar CD. I think it even includes notes about the meaning of different colored veils. I'll see if I can find the CD cover.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Isn't there also the idea that the 7 veils mythos is tied to Ishtar and her descent into the underworld? It totally changes the dynamic of the 7 veils routine to characterize it this way, as each of the veils is symbolic of leaving a piece of her mortal existence behind (or something - it's been awhile since I've read about it) - couldn't you include that in any program notes should one choose to do a 7 veils dance?

See I would totally do it but in my own way. I mean, the theme is "numbers" and I think it is sort of a no-brainer. It doens't mean you have to get nekkid or anything. I say challenge yourself & open the audiences' eyes. Have fun.

Originally Posted by MahiraRaqs

So I have been asked to dance in a regular dance show (meaning not a bellydance show) as a guest artist. The theme is Numbers. I don't know what to do that would follow this theme. The organizer emailed me all excited that she had this great idea for me. The Dance of the Seven Veils. I cringed when I read this. I do not like that idea as I find it to be another stereotype for bellydancers. I don't want to do this. Even if I did it well and in good taste, I feel it feeds the stereotype. I want to reply to her in a way without sounding like I'm lecturing and then follow it up with another idea, but I'm stumped and now a little rubbed the wrong way, I guess. So, any ideas?

Don't do it. Please.

Use one of the good suggestions here - something that doesn't involve seven pieces of fabric.

I'm not sure why people seem to be coming down a bit hard on Mahira for not wanting to do a seven veils piece out of personal preference. Regardless of the stage directions in Salomé, the phrase is associated with striptease, and I personally wouldn't feel obligated to educate the public about the literary/biblical tradition of the Salomé story, apart from wanting to clarify that the seven veils dance is not a traditional Middle Eastern dance staple.

I'm actually a big fan of the idea of using diverse rhythms. As educational aims go, that would be a great way to introduce an audience to Middle Eastern music.

Originally Posted by Ainsley

I'm not sure why people seem to be coming down a bit hard on Mahira for not wanting to do a seven veils piece out of personal preference. Regardless of the stage directions in Salomé, the phrase is associated with striptease, and I personally wouldn't feel obligated to educate the public about the literary/biblical tradition of the Salomé story, apart from wanting to clarify that the seven veils dance is not a traditional Middle Eastern dance staple.

I'm actually a big fan of the idea of using diverse rhythms. As educational aims go, that would be a great way to introduce an audience to Middle Eastern music.

Thank you Ainsley.