Thread: Assaya: Sticks & Canes, Saidi & Beledi

I just spun this topic off, I really want to know!
http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...tml#post644374

I use a cane at the moment for my Saidi but I have not progressed to the more tricky stuff. When I do get to bounces and trading ends, I will use a stick.

Originally Posted by Fotia

I was recently told by a very good and knowledgeable source that the cane was introduced by Mahmoud Reda for women to use as the origins of the stick dance was for men, and the cane was a more cabaret approach to women doing the stick dance.

I'd heard before getting into bellydance that traditionally also women danced this way (more often without the stick, only the Saidi moves you know as a dance; but sometimes with a stick).
My gutt feeling (so take it for what it is - just a feeling) is not that cane/stick is a woman/man thing, but rather a stage/folk thing. I highly doubt if you went to rural celebrations of the Saidi people some decades ago you would have seen the women swing the pailletted, hooked type of canes I have no idea how these regions are currently developed, depopulated, tourism-adapted.. if there is still much of a traditional Said tribe lifestyle (also with youth, and not assimilated to tourist wishes) I'd bet they dance with the stick, and not with what I have always considered a stage/glammed up version.
The videos I more consciously watched in the past years, I also feel in very traditional performances at cultural arts events women either do not dance with a cane/stick, or if they do a stick is used.
There again if you think of very glammed up folklore representations it would be logical that with glammed up costumes comes the glammed up cane.

to sum up, the notion of it being a male/female thing does not seem accurate for me gutt-feeling wise. Obviously you'd have to ask folklore troupe leaders, at best with Saidi background, to confirm or disqualify that feeling.

haha, silly me. Yes, now that I have my bigger stick I realize why women prefer the thinner ones: it takes more strength to handle the big ones...

Originally Posted by dinavienna

I'd heard before getting into bellydance that traditionally also women danced this way (more often without the stick, only the Saidi moves you know as a dance; but sometimes with a stick).
My gutt feeling (so take it for what it is - just a feeling) is not that cane/stick is a woman/man thing, but rather a stage/folk thing. I highly doubt if you went to rural celebrations of the Saidi people some decades ago you would have seen the women swing the pailletted, hooked type of canes I have no idea how these regions are currently developed, depopulated, tourism-adapted.. if there is still much of a traditional Said tribe lifestyle (also with youth, and not assimilated to tourist wishes) I'd bet they dance with the stick, and not with what I have always considered a stage/glammed up version.
The videos I more consciously watched in the past years, I also feel in very traditional performances at cultural arts events women either do not dance with a cane/stick, or if they do a stick is used.
There again if you think of very glammed up folklore representations it would be logical that with glammed up costumes comes the glammed up cane.

to sum up, the notion of it being a male/female thing does not seem accurate for me gutt-feeling wise. Obviously you'd have to ask folklore troupe leaders, at best with Saidi background, to confirm or disqualify that feeling.

Diva, to my very limited knowledge, I think that women doing cane dance came about with cabaret. But I believe you are right that women did not use it in folkloric circles, just the men.

The whole 'stick vs. cane' argument is making more sense to me because my brain just couldn't get around the idea of a cane being used as a weapon. There is a short staff used in far east martial arts. There's the sheleighly (which is more like a club). It seems maces were used in Egypt. The only weapons with crooked ends were long pole arms with blades like guisarmes.

Here's a theory from a person with more experience with weapons than dancing...

Perhaps the cane is more proper for women because it's a 'parody' of actual stick fighting and is considered an emasculated version of a proper weapon. A cane used to prop up a lame person would be much less threatening than a large stick. (Even though, if wielded properly, you could still beat the stuffin' out of someone with a cane.)

As far as balance goes, the extra weight with the crook gives it a little more pull during spins which might make it slightly easier to spin a cane than a stick. Also, canes are probably more readily available than sticks. Availability coupled with the balance might have made the cane the preference for dancers over sticks.

Originally Posted by roguepen

Perhaps the cane is more proper for women because it's a 'parody' of actual stick fighting and is considered an emasculated version of a proper weapon. A cane used to prop up a lame person would be much less threatening than a large stick. (Even though, if wielded properly, you could still beat the stuffin' out of someone with a cane.)

As far as balance goes, the extra weight with the crook gives it a little more pull during spins which might make it slightly easier to spin a cane than a stick. Also, canes are probably more readily available than sticks. Availability coupled with the balance might have made the cane the preference for dancers over sticks.

The other point is the staff is a rural weapon - the cane urban. You can't wander around Cairo with a 6' staff.

It isn't just belly dancers who dance with a cane. I've seen videos of men doing it and saw it myself in a cafe in Cairo in 2003. The music was pumping and two guys took turns dancing and showing off with a walking stick.

If balance is the issue why mess around with those pathetic little canes? A real walking stick does twirl nicely - but Aida Nour insists that a woman must use a short straight stick (despite there being plenty of evidence of female dancers using canes with crooks in movies etc)

My early understanding was that cane was danced by women is a parody of the male tahtib matial arts performance.
I like to use a weighty wooden crooked cane which is quite thick, 7/8". and has little nodes and knots on it.

Originally Posted by roguepen

As far as balance goes, the extra weight with the crook gives it a little more pull during spins which might make it slightly easier to spin a cane than a stick. Also, canes are probably more readily available than sticks. Availability coupled with the balance might have made the cane the preference for dancers over sticks.

I actually find my stick easier to spin than any cane I've used--the lack of a hook makes it more aerodynamic, so once you get it going it keeps on going, and goes in a more consistent parallel to the body as well. But I would agree that canes are definitely more readily available.

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

I actually find my stick easier to spin than any cane I've used--the lack of a hook makes it more aerodynamic, so once you get it going it keeps on going, and goes in a more consistent parallel to the body as well. But I would agree that canes are definitely more readily available.

I'd also like a stick without a crook...can't buy it here.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I'm pretty sure there is a video of Fifi dancing a non-folkloric piece with a stick somewhere on YouTube, but she bends the rules a lot.

I just checked YouTube.com to get the link for Fifi dancing to Hassan ya Khouli el Geneyna in galabiyya with cane in the film Gahem Imraa, a clip that was one of my main influences for the "men's style" tet baladi on my Baladi DVD, but unfortunately for us that video has been made private on YouTube.

..cr.: