Thread: Assaya: Sticks & Canes, Saidi & Beledi

Assaya: Sticks & Canes, Saidi & Beledi

I just saw something that made me confused regarding this topic, and I'd greatly appreciate it if some knowledgeable bhuzers could clear up the confusion for me. But please please bear with me, this will be a long post... ,s::

For the purposes of this thread, I will NOT be using the words "stick" and "cane" interchangeably. What I mean when I say "stick" is something like this:

It is thick, looks heavy and rough, not usually decorated, does not have a hook at the end

Whereas by "cane," I mean something like this:

Often thinner, lighter, usually decorated, with a hook at the end.

I will use the word "assaya" as a general term that refers to both sticks and canes.


Now, my impression was that the stick was mainly used for tahtib whereas for the purpose of female raqs assaya, the lighter cane was used. For example, most of the female Saidi performances I have seen were done with a cane, and not a stick, and although I have seen it done with a stick (less often), I always viewed this more as a practical preference or an aesthetic choice than something that is based on tradition. Meaning, if I saw a female dancer doing Saidi with a stick instead of the cane, I assumed she did so because she personally prefers to work with a heavier assaya or because she is going for a more masculine feel in her dance.

However, my assumptions have been thrown off track by something I've just come across:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zI0p4SR9hE&feature=related]YouTube - NUR em Brasilia[/ame]

In this video, the Brazillian belly dancer Nur dances to a beledi progression using a cane. Now, I thought this was a little unusual. I realize that not all raqs assaya is Saidi (and that not all Saidi uses assaya), and I have seen assaya used in beledi that is not Saidi, but aside from Ranya Renee's DVD where she demonstrates the tet beledi with a stick while dressed like a man, I had never seen a woman dance to an actual beledi progression with assaya. So it didn't seem absurd, but I definitely thought it was different.

So I was reading the comments to see if anyone thought the same thing (disclaimer: don't bother going to the channel to read the comments if you don't speak Portuguese), and someone did comment on not having understood the cane being there. Now, the source of my confusion is the response to that comment: "Canes are used for beledi, sticks are used for Saidi."

[to be continued]

[continued below]

Of course, I know, it's a youtube comment, how many people on youtube actually know what they are talking about? But as soon as I read this, I realized that most of (if not all) Brazilian belly dancers I have seen doing Saidi were indeed using sticks! Now, is there any folkloric basis for this? I decided to research some videos of female dancers from "over there" doing Saidi, and in most of the ones that included assaya, the dancers were using canes and not sticks.

So, where could this idea have come from? When should a stick be used, when should a cane be used, and does it even matter?

I know I may be splitting hairs, but I became very curious as to why this seems to be an assumption in Brazil. Although I'm Brazilian, I don't live there and don't learn from the dancers there so I can't know if that comment is something that is taught or is general wisdom for belly dancers there or if it's just one person's misunderstanding. I will ask around to find that out, but for now I would like to get to the bottom of this matter and learn more about assaya and this stick vs. cane issue from people who know about the traditions.

Also while we are on this topic, I would like to pose another question that could also help explain the basis of that comment (because Brazil has a large Lebanese population whose culture and tastes likely have an influence in the evolution of belly dance there): What about Lebanese assaya? Where did that come from? All articles I read about the origins of assaya tend to focus on the Egyptian tahtib and Saidi. Yet, I have seen Lebanese style dancers incorporate assaya in their routines, often to debke music. Does Lebanon have its own assaya tradition or is this something that was incorporated from Egyptian traditions?

Thanks in advance for any responses. I look forward to the ensuing discussion.

I have no answers but very interested in the people that know more than me about this. lOVE both cane and stick dancing. Karim Nagi teaches saidi with a stick most of the time

Originally Posted by EzmaSiddiqah

I have no answers but very interested in the people that know more than me about this. lOVE both cane and stick dancing. Karim Nagi teaches saidi with a stick most of the time

This doesn't surprise me, since I always thought the whole stick vs. cane issue was a masculinity vs. femininity thing (respectively).
I am very used to seeing men use sticks for tahtib and tahtib-inspired dances, Saidi, etc. I'm not sure I've ever even seen a male dancer use a cane for anything.

As for women, I usually see the cane being used for assaya instead of the stick, and I have seen the stick used as well, but not as often, so I thought that was because some dancers just prefer to work with a stick or wanted more of a masculine feel (as I've mentioned before), and not because of some "rule" like "canes for beledi, sticks for Saidi."

So if I was unclear before, this is the root of my confusion.

But now, your response made me think of a possibility... perhaps Brazilian dancers mostly learned Saidi from male dancers, and thus began a "tradition" of dancing Saidi with stick?

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

Now, my impression was that the stick was mainly used for tahtib whereas for the purpose of female raqs assaya, the lighter cane was used. For example, most of the female Saidi performances I have seen were done with a cane, and not a stick, and although I have seen it done with a stick (less often), I always viewed this more as a practical preference or an aesthetic choice than something that is based on tradition. Meaning, if I saw a female dancer doing Saidi with a stick instead of the cane, I assumed she did so because she personally prefers to work with a heavier assaya or because she is going for a more masculine feel in her dance.

This was what I had been taught as well.

In this video, the Brazillian belly dancer Nur dances to a beledi progression using a cane. [...]So I was reading the comments to see if anyone thought the same thing (disclaimer: don't bother going to the channel to read the comments if you don't speak Portuguese), and someone did comment on not having understood the cane being there. Now, the source of my confusion is the response to that comment: "Canes are used for beledi, sticks are used for Saidi."

Not to be critical of Nur, but generally, it's better to defer to the natives than the foreigners, no matter how good they might be. I'm pretty sure there is a video of Fifi dancing a non-folkloric piece with a stick somewhere on YouTube, but she bends the rules a lot.

i'm at work so i can't search youtube for clips...

on the bdss live at folies bergere, jillina and ladies do a more 'pop' dance with tahtib to a pop song with a saidi rhythm.

on the bellydancers of cairo, there's a clip of katya dancing with a BIG tahtib in a night club. she does some twirling, hitting the ground, balancing on her head.

in both of these cases, the performances were definitely more feminine than masculine imo, and not so much about doing folk dancing as doing modern egyptian with a prop... hope that made sense.

so, i have nothing to contribute really haha! it seems to be that the prop choice is really just a preference for the performers. i don't know if one is more correct that the other. i do think in my own local community, its far more common to see women dancing with cane than tahtib.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

Of course, I know, it's a youtube comment, how many people on youtube actually know what they are talking about? But as soon as I read this, I realized that most of (if not all) Brazilian belly dancers I have seen doing Saidi were indeed using sticks! Now, is there any folkloric basis for this?

Maybe it has something to do with capoeira and it's just a cultural artifact that the Brazilians have grafted onto the dance?

So, where could this idea have come from? When should a stick be used, when should a cane be used, and does it even matter?

As I understand it, if you're female and doing a tahtib or a hardcore Saidi folkloric performance, use a straight stick. If you're not doing a tahtib piece (i.e., if you're doing a stylized Saidi piece or an oriental beledi piece), use a crooked stick, unless you really want to use a straight stick. Folkloric pieces call for a more substantial assaya than glitzy belly-dancer-y ones. If you're male, stay away from the dainty little foiled canes unless you're doing a drag performance. I'm not sure I've ever seen a man use a crooked stick when he wasn't teaching women, but maybe they do occasionally. (Anyone?) Men definitely seem to prefer the tahtib weapons.

Also while we are on this topic, I would like to pose another question that could also help explain the basis of that comment (because Brazil has a large Lebanese population whose culture and tastes likely have an influence in the evolution of belly dance there): What about Lebanese assaya? Where did that come from? All articles I read about the origins of assaya tend to focus on the Egyptian tahtib and Saidi. Yet, I have seen Lebanese style dancers incorporate assaya in their routines, often to debke music. Does Lebanon have its own assaya tradition or is this something that was incorporated from Egyptian traditions?

I suspect the Lebanese had some of their own tradition (you have a stick, there's some music being played...), but it does seem that stylistically they have been influenced heavily by the Egyptian incorporation of their folkloric traditions into oriental dance. Lebanese assaya tends to be a little more twirly and fast than the Egyptian style, and they do like to use debke music. The Lebanese use debke music as their default down-home groove, so it's not surprising they might pick that over Egypt's down-home-groove-style music when it comes to capturing their uniquely Lebanese flavor of "beledi."

Incidentally, the men in the Gulf dance with light, springy, straight sticks that are used for controlling camels, so there may be some tradition of using the smaller-sized sticks coming into the equation from that angle, too.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Not to be critical of Nur, but generally, it's better to defer to the natives than the foreigners, no matter how good they might be. I'm pretty sure there is a video of Fifi dancing a non-folkloric piece with a stick somewhere on YouTube, but she bends the rules a lot.

Just to clarify, I don't think it was Nur herself who said that. It seemed to be just a random person on youtube.
The comment seemed wrong or at least a huge generalization to me but I gave it the benefit of the doubt because that does seem to be a trend in Brazil.

I wholeheartedly agree that it's best to defer to the natives if I want to know about the traditions and the "correctness" or something like this, which is why I am posting here (there are a lot of bhuzers who are very knowledgeable in these topics from their travels, research, and contact with natives).

However, it is also in my interest to find out why something evolved a certain way outside of the Middle East in certain cases, and since I have a great interest in the style of Brazilian dancers this is very relevant to me. Now, the answer to that part of my question I expect I will probably not find here, but we can theorize for the time being.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

Of course, I know, it's a youtube comment, how many people on youtube actually know what they are talking about? But as soon as I read this, I realized that most of (if not all) Brazilian belly dancers I have seen doing Saidi were indeed using sticks! Now, is there any folkloric basis for this? I decided to research some videos of female dancers from "over there" doing Saidi, and in most of the ones that included assaya, the dancers were using canes and not sticks.

So, where could this idea have come from? When should a stick be used, when should a cane be used, and does it even matter?

`Sayya literally means “little stick”. The general word for walking stick or staff is a`Sin. So strictly raqs assaya is cane dance – it does not include dancing with the full staffs. (However solo dance with a full staff if in the manner of raqs assaya rather than tahtib is still called raqs assaya. Confused?) The “stick” may be a small straight stick – and I believe this is used in the Reda troupe – or at least that is what Aida Nour has led me to believe (she was adamant a woman would never use a hooked stick – despite there being plenty of film of Egyptian female dancers doing exactly that!)

As you say raqs assaya is in sa`iidi, and beledi dance – and also ghawazee. The sa`iidi raqs assaya that most belly dancers learn is the men’s style. But no problem – that is also danced by female belly dancers in Egypt (unless they are Reda trained where it becomes much less “aggressive”)

The big staffs are normally used for tahtib which is a sa`iidi martial arts style dance. But they are also used for raqs assaya. I have also seen footage of the Banat Maazin using them as “canes” ie they were fighting with them but manipulating them. They are never used for beledi.

I was told by Dr Mo that if you dance with a staff you dress as a man (unless you are Banat Maazin – I assume).

As for why all sa`iidi in Brazil is danced with a stick - I assume someone with a big following is teaching that way. Perhaps they have not been exposed to a wide range of sa`iidi dance.

As for the video - I suspect there were some crossed wires. Someone who can use a stick well decides to use it with every thing she does. She hears that there is a "beledi stick" - and this is beledi so she uses a stick. But it is the wrong beledi!

i cant view the clip right now (at work) but i, too, am interested in the responses

i was first introduced to saidi and cane through Mohammed Kazafy at his workshops. He looked at all of us with our canes and said "this isn't the right stick, this is" talking about his tahtib.

i perform with both/either and actually prefer the tahtib in some routines because its easier to do those throws where you switch the ends of it.

and when i was in brazil i performed with a broomstick sans the broom ..l;,

Originally Posted by kashmir

`Sayya literally means “little stick”. The general word for walking stick or staff is a`Sin. So strictly raqs assaya is cane dance – it does not include dancing with the full staffs. (However solo dance with a full staff if in the manner of raqs assaya rather than tahtib is still called raqs assaya. Confused?)

I am not confused... I think it makes perfect sense. I would change the references to cane and stick both as "assaya" in the original post to acknowledge this and use this vocabulary from here onward, but I think at this point it would make things confusing since the post has already been read and quoted and not necessarily everyone reading my original post will have read this part of your response.
But thanks for that info, I will keep it in mind in the future.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

The Lebanese use debke music as their default down-home groove, so it's not surprising they might pick that over Egypt's down-home-groove-style music when it comes to capturing their uniquely Lebanese flavor of "beledi."

This is what I thought as well... also, (to me at least) debke and Saidi music sound similar so it would make sense that if the Lebanese adapted assaya to their own music that is a similar-sounding equivalent.
However to me this was just an assumption, no one has ever told me this is so, so I'd like to hear from someone who knows more about assaya as it applies to dance in Lebanon.

Originally Posted by zfejzic

i was first introduced to saidi and cane through Mohammed Kazafy at his workshops. He looked at all of us with our canes and said "this isn't the right stick, this is" talking about his tahtib.

So again it seems like a plausible explanation that males could have had a big influence in the teaching of Saidi in Brazil. If you learned Saidi from a male, and males generally use stick rather than cane, then it's not far-fetched for you to believe the correct prop for Saidi would be a stick rather than a cane.

Very interesting topic!:)

@yameyameyame:
Yes,lots of lebanese live in Brazil AND most brazilian dancers who perform abroad are in other areas than Egypt so I see the connection there...


All my male egyptian teachers have used the stick instead of the cane and suggested that the hooked cane is considered more suitable for women,so that a woman who uses the stick is more of a mualima(tough strong woman)...
(I can´t bounce the cane to the floor and pick it up like a heavy straight stick or switch ends though.)

Here in Sweden about 3 choreographys(that I´ve seen performed) with cane for beledi has been created and taught by Zeina(Suzanne Petrén Abou Shebika).
I think she is authentic+bases her work on what she learned in Egypt.

It would be interesting to learn more about cane/stick dance traditions in Lebanon,however I believe Tourbeau is spot on while writing:
"I suspect the Lebanese had some of their own tradition (you have a stick, there's some music being played...), but it does seem that stylistically they have been influenced heavily by the Egyptian incorporation of their folkloric traditions into oriental dance."
The choreographed shows with men I´ve seen dancing with sticks in Lebanon+Syria supports this theory.
Almost all I saw were made up darker with bronzer and dressed up as "saiidis".

Exhibit A,orthopedic walking canes-right?
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdKEe0myhRU]YouTube - MiddleEastern Dancer[/ame]




In the Levant and gulf females dancers use much smaller canes than in Egypt-
I felt that I was swinging a drinking straw while training there compared to my usual egyptian cane that reaches to my solar plexus:D

I have studied up on this subject, read and heard several things and I've formed a few opinions.

First, what may appear to be a cultural tendency is not necessarily a rule.

Most footage I've seen of Egyptian and Arab female dancers performing is with a smaller crooked cane, but I've also seen footage, even older footage of women performing with the straight stick, some smaller straight sticks, some larger like the ones the men use for tahtib. I'm sure several of you have observed likewise. I think the tendency is crooked cane for Baladi, skinnier canes for the Lebanese, and either a crooked cane or sometimes straight stick for Saidi in the women's versions of these dances, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to find variations and exceptions to these tendencies as danced by natives from time to time. I also wouldn't be at all concerned about the offense of cultural sensibilities if I saw a dancer make an artistic decision to use a straight stick for baladi style or for Lebanese, albeit a little surprised if they chose the full sized tahtib style stick for one of the above.

I have been told by an Egyptian male dancer that dancing Saidi with a stick, going back to the roots of the tradition, was men only, the women didn't use the staff. But whenever or however it got started, Egyptian women certainly do now dance with sticks of all varieties (and have for some time) in a Saidi style, also to other baladi music, baladi progressions and so on. A former cultural norm either changed, or was not that strictly adhered to to begin with (I suspect the latter.)

So I think it is good to observe cultural tendencies and observe variations, but not as helpful to think of these things rules that are sometimes broken. Often I think whatever stick is most available does the job. I'm certain I've seen footage of Egyptian men performing with crooked canes before too, although that isn't the overriding preference for men that we see most of the time.

As far as Lebanese dancing with sticks or canes. They do have their own tradition and I'm sure they were influenced by the Egyptians somewhat, but I feel it is unfair to assume the influence was a one way road. The Lebanese have their own Oriental dance traditions and folkloric dance traditions, some involving sticks/canes, as rich and ancient as the traditions we see in Egypt. They've also had their own movie and television industry, a booming tourist trade and they've had very influential performers and producers crossing back and forth between Egypt and Lebanon. I believe the crossover we see in the two regions approaches to dancing with sticks/canes goes both ways. I wouldn't make the assumption that the Lebanese must have gotten it from the Egyptians. (You can however make that assumption with the Turks, who didn't traditionally have any cane dances associated with their Oriental dance as far as I understand.)

Suha Deeb would be a good resource on this subject.

i think, in my opinion at least, its not so much if u use the "correct" prop, cane or stick, but how you portray the style. like shems said, women didn't start using sticks but their saidi was just as strong and 'proud' as the men's. (kazafy would always say this, be proud to be a saidiyya, saidi women are very proud! give attitude!).

that being said, i do incorporate some of the men's moves into some of my routines but its for a cross between being cutesy and proud/folkloric/showing the audience you know ur stuff. (hope that makes sense?)

im actually in the process of buying some more canes to cut off the hooked parts because i need a lighter stick (but still shiny with the foil lol) for my next routine. the tahtib i have is pretty heavy and long so i use that for practice

unfortunately, i don't know much about lebanese assaya dancing altho the ones i've seen were to debkeh..

Interesting topic, I never gave it much thought before. I always used a hooked lightweight bamboo cane when doing assaya whether it was to Egyptian Saidi music or Lebanese debke. However, when I recently took the Dina workshop, she danced with a straight stick, but it was still a lightweight bamboo stick, not the heavy sticks the men dance to. And she was teaching "saidi" but to shaabi music.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hd7_zmimJM]YouTube - Fifi Abdou - Belly Dance[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7dCg3tpZYQ]YouTube - Viktoriya Dances Baladi with Cane and a Drum Solo[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtxEuOoVeRM&feature=related]YouTube - Cane Dance with The Wrong Music[/ame]

I thought there was another clip of Fifi or another famous dancer in a movie somewhere also performing baladi with a cane...It seems that maybe doing beledi progression with a stick or a cane might not be done as commonly, but certainly not out of realm of possibility. I agree that Fifi does tend to bend rules, but I've never heard of a hard and fast "thou shalt not dance to beledi progression with a cane or stick" rule. From what I understood anyway, that the cane can also be used (among other things) as a cheeky prop by the women to kind of poke fun at the guys, as they feminize the movements and make them sassy, and it might just be something that you would pick up and joke with when dancing to any beledi or saidi, or debke--folky, hangin' with your peeps dance, whether it be cane or stick handy, and make the dance as masculine or feminine as you like. I dunno. I'm not an expert on this. But I just don't see that there is or needs to be such dichotomy between different styles and flavors, or that one way is wrong and the other is right. I mean, we are doing essentially a stylized folk dance right? I'm sure the "folk" we are imitating have lots of variations whether they are Lebanese or Egyptian, and probably lots of opinions about it as well..l;,.

Any excuse to post this one. Cane (long, with crook) comes in at 4:00.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5TB9p8m5dU]YouTube - Fifi Abdo, cane & melaya[/ame]

How interesting! I dance with a cane with both Saidi and Beledi music but I never thought of that. Great topic!

Thanks for the replies and videos...

From this topic so far, there seems to be a general consensus that a (female) dancer will not be judged by her choice of assaya... yes? In the US, at least. It might be different in Brazil, I am still trying to find out.

Originally Posted by shems

I have been told by an Egyptian male dancer that dancing Saidi with a stick, going back to the roots of the tradition, was men only, the women didn't use the staff. But whenever or however it got started, Egyptian women certainly do now dance with sticks of all varieties (and have for some time) in a Saidi style, also to other baladi music, baladi progressions and so on. A former cultural norm either changed, or was not that strictly adhered to to begin with (I suspect the latter.)

This is what I'd been told as well.

Originally Posted by shems

As far as Lebanese dancing with sticks or canes. They do have their own tradition and I'm sure they were influenced by the Egyptians somewhat, but I feel it is unfair to assume the influence was a one way road. The Lebanese have their own Oriental dance traditions and folkloric dance traditions, some involving sticks/canes, as rich and ancient as the traditions we see in Egypt. They've also had their own movie and television industry, a booming tourist trade and they've had very influential performers and producers crossing back and forth between Egypt and Lebanon. I believe the crossover we see in the two regions approaches to dancing with sticks/canes goes both ways. I wouldn't make the assumption that the Lebanese must have gotten it from the Egyptians. (You can however make that assumption with the Turks, who didn't traditionally have any cane dances associated with their Oriental dance as far as I understand.)

Great points... I didn't even think about the "two-way road" angle. My perspective (because of that of most of my sources) is very Egypt-centric, and the bias shows.

I'm going to do a saidi soon, juicy raks assaya and will be using a stick for sure, for that puny cane... dunno, it's not impressive. Walking canes à la Fred Astaire are too old-fashioned... and this metallic foil makes them look all too circus-ey for my taste...I'm sure the cane was thought of as more elegant, refined and as such more suitable for the females than that big coarse instrument for sheperds and whatever rustic guys, but the fun of my raks assaya is the idea of a woman playing gracefully around with something that could be also a serious thing, a weapon or whatever and that thing has got to look like SOMETHING, not like a golden toothpick...,r:;

What I heard: Saidi=stick, beledi=cane, but many female pro dancers would use a cane all the same also for saidi for it looks more elegant and coquettish or for they got just that one...

I'm in the US and I use a stick, but then my primary teacher at the moment is Brazilian... ,r:; Seriously, I wanted a stick pretty much because I saw Fifi and other Egyptians dancing with them, and I liked the look of it better. Once I started dancing with a stick, I found I also liked the greater weight and the aerodynamics of it better too. I'm with Nouria on the foil-wrapped canes, when it comes to me and my dancing. It doesn't bother me at all to see other people dancing with foil-wrapped canes, but I prefer a heavier stick for myself.

No it's ok to embellish them for me too, but some canes that were sold here, they were so thin, they were almost twig-width, with this adornment like the colourful sugary sweets (stripes), I'll see that I'll get sth. bigger and more solid, foil or not, crook or not, my own golden cane is a bit too short for my purpose.

Originally Posted by badriya_al_ahmar

I'm in the US and I use a stick, but then my primary teacher at the moment is Brazilian... ,r:; Seriously, I wanted a stick pretty much because I saw Fifi and other Egyptians dancing with them, and I liked the look of it better.

I love that aesthetic as well, but I feel like I am way too small and delicate to be able to pull it off :(

EDIT: not that I've never seen small dancers use it, but they generally look much stronger than me even when they are delicate.

I was recently told by a very good and knowledgeable source that the cane was introduced by Mahmoud Reda for women to use as the origins of the stick dance was for men, and the cane was a more cabaret approach to women doing the stick dance.

Originally Posted by Fotia

I was recently told by a very good and knowledgeable source that the cane was introduced by Mahmoud Reda for women to use as the origins of the stick dance was for men, and the cane was a more cabaret approach to women doing the stick dance.

who was your source?

Originally Posted by shems

who was your source?

My most recent instructor, Erika Ochoa of Chicago. She definitely said it was a Mahmoud Reda inspired creation. But I had heard "rumblings" along that idea beforehand.

Originally Posted by Fotia

My most recent instructor, Erika Ochoa of Chicago. She definitely said it was a Mahmoud Reda inspired creation. But I had heard "rumblings" along that idea beforehand.

Hm.

Reda told Shira in an interview that he never had women using cane or stick in his troupe, as there were men to do it, and it's really a men's dance. At least that's how I remember Shira reporting the conversation here on Bhuz some time ago. I'll see if I can find THAT thread on Saidi, it was wonderful!

There are clips of Reda dancers performing Saidi dance on youtube, but I haven't seen any of them use a stick or cane yet.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Hm.

Reda told Shira in an interview that he never had women using cane or stick in his troupe, as there were men to do it, and it's really a men's dance.

There are clips of Reda dancers performing Saidi dance on youtube, but I haven't seen any of them use a stick or cane yet.

Hmmm, maybe another urban legend.

Oh, oh oh I found it!
Quoting Shira from that thread

Mahmoud Reda did NOT choreograph stick dances for the women - his choreography might have the women take the sticks away from the guys and play with them briefly, but he wouldn't create a "stick dance" specifically for women. When I interviewed him, he said, "The women's dance is an imitation of the men's dance. In Reda Troupe, we had men available to do this dance, so why not have them do it?"

The whole thread is here: http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...hout-cane.html

Now I am very curious as to who invented the idea of using a cane. Also, is it true that women did not do a version of the men's stick dance before Mahmoud Reda started incorporating it into his troupe?