Thread: How old is women's Raks Assaya?

The question came up on another thread, and it's something that I've wondered about for ages.


I've seen Lucy and Fifi dance with assaya, but I can't remember ever seeing anyone before their era do it. Is there footage from the Golden Era of dancers doing Raks Assaya and I've just missed those clips, or forgotten them?

If it didn't start until the 70s or so, then my first guess would've been that it was a Reda invention. But I've only seen Reda's female dancers doing Saidi without Assaya.

In fact, once upon a time, in an old thread, Shira wrote:

Mahmoud Reda did NOT choreograph stick dances for the women - his choreography might have the women take the sticks away from the guys and play with them briefly, but he wouldn't create a "stick dance" specifically for women. When I interviewed him, he said, "The women's dance is an imitation of the men's dance. In Reda Troupe, we had men available to do this dance, so why not have them do it?"

(this was shortly after she did her 3 part interview with Reda)

So, Reda didn't start it. Who did?

Was it a Fifi innovation, dancing a men's dance just as she wore a men's galabeya?

Or is there .p:: evidence .p:: that it's older than that? Or eyewitness testimony?

When I was first taught Raks Assaya, I was led to believe it was a real folk dance, something women in villages in the Said actually do. It's taken me a long time to wrap my head around the idea that it's a stage invention that only belly dancers do, and only the men dance Assaya 'for real.'

but no older than the 60s and 70s? Really?

Very interesting, no idea, but listening...

*waiting eagerly*

Taheya:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYxl7rb0OwI&feature=related]YouTube - ‫تØ*ية كاريوكا رقص شرقيcarioka belly dance Taheya‬‎[/ame]

Yes! Dr Mo Geddawi said it was Tahiya Carioca who first brought "folklore" into a belly dance set. Now I take anything Dr Mo says with a grain of salt, but he has researched pretty hard and it would certainly make *sense* that it came into oriental dance in the time honoured manner of "dancer entertains audience, playfully takes some guy's stick and does some cutey fakey man dancing with it as onto-it band throws in a bit of saidi rhythm/band plays a saidi song, belly dancer spots chap with a stick or cane, decides to grab stick and incorporate it: everyone is charmed."

Whether it was actually her or not we might never know.

*comes back*
I LOVE that video! Do you think the man woke up in a sweat because Tahiya was doing cane to the WRONG MUSIC? Horrors! Call the ethnic police immediately!

Also, Fifi Abdou is now sprung.

There's another video of her (she was younger for sure), but I can't find it...

Originally Posted by zumarrad

*comes back*
I LOVE that video! Do you think the man woke up in a sweat because Tahiya was doing cane to the WRONG MUSIC? Horrors! Call the ethnic police immediately!

Also, Fifi Abdou is now sprung.

Here's the ethnic police: .p::


..l;,..l;,..l;,

Here's Hala El Safi:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfRm5r91kDE]YouTube - Bellydancer Hala El Safi Part 2[/ame]

Originally Posted by ANA_bellydancer

Here's Hala El Safi:

YouTube - Bellydancer Hala El Safi Part 2

I love this video. But, I don't think it's that old. It's actually in color and (permission to shot me if I'm wrong) came out in the 80's.

Originally Posted by audie

I love this video. But, I don't think it's that old. It's actually in color and (permission to shot me if I'm wrong) came out in the 80's.

Yes, I was just posting a few examples... As I said above, there's a really old one from Taheya (older than the other I posted), but I'm unable to find it...

And when was the cane used instead of a stick? I thought Mahmoud Reda introduced the cane for women to use in place of the stick but from the above interview it doesn't look like he did. So who did?

THANK you Ana! That's wonderful! What a gorgeous clip.

There isn't much video footage earlier than Tahia, so it'll be difficult to confirm anything earlier than this. Written description maybe? Drawings and paintings can be difficult to interpret.

Somehow I'm very comforted to know that it at least goes back to Tahia's time.

(and Fotia, look at the clip. Tahiya is using a cane, not a stick, and this clip definitely predates Mahmoud Reda)

I have a clip of Taheya doing assaya with a cane as well, and she's definitely younger in it than she is in the clip above. It's on a DVD I bought from the Sausan academy, Taheya Karioka vol #3:

Sausan Academy: Store

She also plays some lovely zills in this one as well.

I have two clips of Naima Akef with a cane, one in which she looks like a very young woman (teen). in both she is wearing a tarbush (sp?). I'll look quickly to see if they are on youtube. If not I'll see if I can make time to post them for you to see.

I was curious, so checked my copy of Lane's "Manners and Customs of the Ancient Egyptians" (1830's) to see if there was any mention of ghawazee dancing with canes. Nope...

I found 2 more clips of Tahia performing with canes, one to hassan ya ghouli, the other a song I don't know the name of, and one where she has a bunch of men back up dancers performing with crooked canes.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

The question came up on another thread, and it's something that I've wondered about for ages.


I've seen Lucy and Fifi dance with assaya, but I can't remember ever seeing anyone before their era do it. Is there footage from the Golden Era of dancers doing Raks Assaya and I've just missed those clips, or forgotten them?

If it didn't start until the 70s or so, then my first guess would've been that it was a Reda invention. But I've only seen Reda's female dancers doing Saidi without Assaya.

In fact, once upon a time, in an old thread, Shira wrote:



(this was shortly after she did her 3 part interview with Reda)

So, Reda didn't start it. Who did?

Was it a Fifi innovation, dancing a men's dance just as she wore a men's galabeya?

Or is there .p:: evidence .p:: that it's older than that? Or eyewitness testimony?

Suhair and Nagwa (as a rather young actress, that was) definitely danced with cane.

Sorry can't seem to find the clips..

Hmmm ... I just remembered, the Banat Maazin definitely dance with sticks in Aisha Ali's Dances of Egypt, though I don't recall any moves typical of Saidi-style Raks Assaya.

I realize that footage is from the 80s-90s and it doesn't mean they always danced with sticks.

Niama with assaya, starting at 3:25

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4aSHw44DzY]YouTube - Naima Akef[/ame]

How lovely! I've never seen the whole of this clip before!

Those are some very *rapid* costume changes, lol.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

Hmmm ... I just remembered, the Banat Maazin definitely dance with sticks in Aisha Ali's Dances of Egypt, though I don't recall any moves typical of Saidi-style Raks Assaya.

I realize that footage is from the 80s-90s and it doesn't mean they always danced with sticks.

If anyone is going to the IBCC, this would be a very good question to ask Khaireyya Maazin.

Originally Posted by phillyraqs

If anyone is going to the IBCC, this would be a very good question to ask Khaireyya Maazin.

Oh, yes, PLEASE!!!

*cough*Zumarrad*cough**cough*

I don't think I can go to her "unplugged" session, it clashes! But I'll try!

Originally Posted by Lauren_

THANK you Ana! That's wonderful! What a gorgeous clip.

There isn't much video footage earlier than Tahia, so it'll be difficult to confirm anything earlier than this. Written description maybe? Drawings and paintings can be difficult to interpret.

Somehow I'm very comforted to know that it at least goes back to Tahia's time.

(and Fotia, look at the clip. Tahiya is using a cane, not a stick, and this clip definitely predates Mahmoud Reda)

I was trying to find the other one I said above, when I realized that the channel which had it had been suspended...
But I found this one (before Taheya's entrance there's a dancer with assaya, smoking):

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjkrgMRO20U]YouTube - Taheya car-uca Eygptain legend bellydancer part 1[/ame]

Here's Hermeen in Ashet lel hob film (1959):

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gn3fPhzKjA&feature=related]YouTube - belly dance from the old Egyptian film ashet lel hob[/ame]

My two cents (after that embarassing Bambouteya post and a thorough read of my JtE notes!) The crook on the cane is "Cairo" style, the "Saidi" style cane is straight. And Banat Maazin did dance with sticks, but only when they were handed to them by men, and they didn't do Saidi style, they just pfaffed about.

As for who was really the "first" to incorporate an assaya into an Oriental Stage routine, I've no idea.