Thread: The relativity of Classical to Modern Egyptian Oriental

When one says classical or modern (Egyptian Oriental), are they alluding to a style of dance, or an era or age of dancers. or its a matter of either/or.

i've got into a tad of a mucking fuddle on this one!

i shall tell you all for why.

i've seen clips defined as classical where no "belly" bellydancing seems to be going on, it seems more ball roomy with lots of turns, moving steps, and striking poses, with hip swerves, swoops, and shimmies, more western influenced seeming. then other classical defined clips like fifi abdou for instance, which seem like a funked up stylisation or progression from baladi to my untrained eye, or, rather more like the modern oriental stuff i've seen.

my teacher has refered to classical as fifi abdou and soheir zaki, but then she also makes a distinction saying theres courtly classical and then theres modern classical, which confuses me even more! but here i've seen the same be referred to as modern, that is Fifi, any links, experienced knowledgables out there with an opinion on that matter?

oh yes , on a lesser note, has anyone watch Hilary Thackers DVD's on Baladi, and have you also seen Ranya Renee's DVD's on Baladi, why does the vocabulary and stylisation seem to differ so?

Shortly cause I´m off to sleep:
Most tags on YouTube-clips puzzle me to no end..c::


About classical definition your teacher is Hilal-trained,right?
(I could bet my new wig on it!)

hugs Emma

Originally Posted by ababalond

oh yes , on a lesser note, has anyone watch Hilary Thackers DVD's on Baladi, and have you also seen Ranya Renee's DVD's on Baladi, why does the vocabulary and stylisation seem to differ so?

Because Ranya Renee's is pure Egyptian style, and Hilary Thacker is Hilal style 'baladi'

I've never heard of courtly classical! Is this term from your Hilal style teacher?

The only teachers/dancers who use the term Courtly Classical are Raqs Sharqi Society teachers, and those who have learned under them. I took classes with RSS teachers for much of my early training.

The Raqs Sharqi Society tends to have a unique view of the stylings of Egyptian dance, having most of their influence from Suraya Hilal, and having very little influence from any of the dancers who have actually influenced Egyptian dance as it is actually done in modern Egypt.

I always tell my students, don't get hung up on names, because trying to get ME dancers to agree on any nomenclature for anything is like trying to herd cats. Instead, focus on what the teacher is actually doing.

(Raqs Starchy alert!*beep-beep*)

I started out in the Hilal style and were very confused seeing Hilal style beledi,shaabi and saiidi vs how the ME dancers did it.

It can be a very beautiful style of dance BUT should use other terminologies to not confuse students!

So in short:What Ranya Renée does is similar to how baladi was danced/is danced in Egypt.
IMHO the Suraya Hilal-style has a lot of influences from Eurythmy and modern lyrical dance.

Originally Posted by emma-bessa

Shortly cause I´m off to sleep:
Most tags on YouTube-clips puzzle me to no end..c::


About classical definition your teacher is Hilal-trained,right?
(I could bet my new wig on it!)

hugs Emma

well yes, yes she is!

Originally Posted by beafarhana

The only teachers/dancers who use the term Courtly Classical are Raqs Sharqi Society teachers, and those who have learned under them. I took classes with RSS teachers for much of my early training.

The Raqs Sharqi Society tends to have a unique view of the stylings of Egyptian dance, having most of their influence from Suraya Hilal, and having very little influence from any of the dancers who have actually influenced Egyptian dance as it is actually done in modern Egypt.

I always tell my students, don't get hung up on names, because trying to get ME dancers to agree on any nomenclature for anything is like trying to herd cats. Instead, focus on what the teacher is actually doing.

lol! heard cats! it would seem this way! hence my confusion! i'm trying to develop some knowledge of what is classical and what is modern Egyptian Sharki. Bea i'm not sure if remember me from LJ, my i pay my gratitude to you, your advice helped me, and realise my fondness the Egyptian styles.

Originally Posted by Sarahamh

Because Ranya Renee's is pure Egyptian style, and Hilary Thacker is Hilal style 'baladi'

I've never heard of courtly classical! Is this term from your Hilal style teacher?

yes it is a term she uses, and thankyou on the Ranya Renee and Hilary Thacker query!

Hilal aside, there is no real consensus on what a term like "classical" means. In ME dance, "classical" usually refers to the music and dance of a particular era (Mid-20th Century Egyptian), but sometimes people use it to describe dance that has a strong influence from Western classical ballet. There have always been dancers who filled up their routines with traveling and posing and other theatrical fluff over the traditional movement vocabulary (Morocco calls them “Wonderful Walkers”), and they were around long enough ago to be "classic" in their own nostalgic right now. Did you see this thread? http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...-era-help.html

Fifi is modern in the sense she is still dancing, but she is also in the gap between the first wave of big names such as Taheya Carioca and Samia Gamal, and the contemporary performers like Dina and Randa. Fifi is frequently grouped in the second wave with Nagwa Fouad and Souheir Zaki, but the latter two have both retired from dancing, while Fifi continues to perform and teach. I think of Fifi as more baladi than first wave, and more traditional than the current group.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Hilal aside, there is no real consensus on what a term like "classical" means. In ME dance, "classical" usually refers to the music and dance of a particular era (Mid-20th Century Egyptian), but sometimes people use it to describe dance that has a strong influence from Western classical ballet. There have always been dancers who filled up their routines with traveling and posing and other theatrical fluff over the traditional movement vocabulary (Morocco calls them “Wonderful Walkers”), and they were around long enough ago to be "classic" in their own nostalgic right now. Did you see this thread? http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...-era-help.html

Fifi is modern in the sense she is still dancing, but she is also in the gap between the first wave of big names such as Taheya Carioca and Samia Gamal, and the contemporary performers like Dina and Randa. Fifi is frequently grouped in the second wave with Nagwa Fouad and Souheir Zaki, but the latter two have both retired from dancing, while Fifi continues to perform and teach. I think of Fifi as more baladi than first wave, and more traditional than the current group.

no i haven't seen that thread, i may go have a look now however. thanks for your feedback, and the other advice you've given via pm too.

Originally Posted by ababalond

When one says classical or modern (Egyptian Oriental), are they alluding to a style of dance, or an era or age of dancers. or its a matter of either/or.

i've got into a tad of a mucking fuddle on this one!

i shall tell you all for why.

i've seen clips defined as classical where no "belly" bellydancing seems to be going on, it seems more ball roomy with lots of turns, moving steps, and striking poses, with hip swerves, swoops, and shimmies, more western influenced seeming. then other classical defined clips like fifi abdou for instance, which seem like a funked up stylisation or progression from baladi to my untrained eye, or, rather more like the modern oriental stuff i've seen.

my teacher has refered to classical as fifi abdou and soheir zaki, but then she also makes a distinction saying theres courtly classical and then theres modern classical, which confuses me even more! but here i've seen the same be referred to as modern, that is Fifi, any links, experienced knowledgables out there with an opinion on that matter?

oh yes , on a lesser note, has anyone watch Hilary Thackers DVD's on Baladi, and have you also seen Ranya Renee's DVD's on Baladi, why does the vocabulary and stylisation seem to differ so?

In "classical","Orientale","Golden Age","Casino el Leyl" era you will surely be spotting the polishing up of the Egyptian dance form Raqs Baladi to Raqs Sharki(?) so yes it will seem Western as it might well be presented to a Westernised audience. There's surely still lots of belly-dancing going on and it's what a lot of people will considre to BE belly-dancing just as much a the earthier Fifi or Nagwa and less energetic ( seemingly) than Randa.
Seeing Camelia dance at JoY last year you could see how she was bringing many elements of past stylisations into the dance.
But returning to the (first) Golden Age what we see on most of the clips available on compilation or Youtube are film/movie clips where the dancer is playing a role. I am sure they "do their thing" in these roles but they are still acting. Be wonderful if we had informal footage or even nighclub..if anyone has let us know so we can see the Golden girls "letting their hair down".

I agree that one should try not to get too hung up on the labels.

I think the best way to get a good idea for yourself how the puzzle fits together is to watch a lot of footage, getting to know the style of several of the most famous dancers by sight, keeping in mind the general timeline in which they lived and learning a little about their lives. Also, understanding a little about the politics of their time can be helpful. Also keep in mind they wont be doing raqs sharqi in every on of these old film clips. Sometimes they literally are doing ballroom, or latin, or flamenco, jazz or tap dance even, and as mentioned they are playing characters, so a circus character might dance differently from a Bedouin character who dances differently than a glamor girl character and so on.

You will also find each dancer is unique in her interpretation of raqs sharqi, in any era. So it takes some time to see the elements that tie some dancers together more closely than others. There is no single set of descriptors that can delineate a "classical" era, but you get a sense for who you might generally group with whom by identifying elements and timing they share.

Looking at just Egypt, for myself I group something like this:

Golden Era: Badia Masabni, Tahia Carioca, Samia Gamal, Naima Akef, Katy, Naemet Mokhtar, Zeinat Olwi, Fairouz (child star - not the singer), Nebawiya Moustafa, Liz & Lynn

The Bridge from Golden to Modern (some come earlier, some a little later): Suhair Zaki, Nagua Fouad, Fifi Abdo, Lucy, Mona Said, Shu Shu Amin, Sahar Hamdi, Aza Sharif, Nadia Hamdi, Hanan, Nelly, Zizi Mustafa, Aida Nour

Modern Era: Dina, Randa, Tito, Dandesh and the foreigners Asmahan, Soraya, Leila, Nour, etc...

Originally Posted by shems

I agree that one should try not to get too hung up on the labels.

I think the best way to get a good idea for yourself how the puzzle fits together is to watch a lot of footage, getting to know the style of several of the most famous dancers by sight, keeping in mind the general timeline in which they lived and learning a little about their lives. Also, understanding a little about the politics of their time can be helpful. Also keep in mind they wont be doing raqs sharqi in every on of these old film clips. Sometimes they literally are doing ballroom, or latin, or flamenco, jazz or tap dance even, and as mentioned they are playing characters, so a circus character might dance differently from a Bedouin character who dances differently than a glamor girl character and so on.

You will also find each dancer is unique in her interpretation of raqs sharqi, in any era. So it takes some time to see the elements that tie some dancers together more closely than others. There is no single set of descriptors that can delineate a "classical" era, but you get a sense for who you might generally group with whom by identifying elements and timing they share.

Looking at just Egypt, for myself I group something like this:

Golden Era: Badia Masabni, Tahia Carioca, Samia Gamal, Naima Akef, Katy, Naemet Mokhtar, Zeinat Olwi, Fairouz (child star - not the singer), Nebawiya Moustafa, Liz & Lynn

The Bridge from Golden to Modern (some come earlier, some a little later): Suhair Zaki, Nagua Fouad, Fifi Abdo, Lucy, Mona Said, Shu Shu Amin, Sahar Hamdi, Aza Sharif, Nadia Hamdi, Hanan, Nelly, Zizi Mustafa, Aida Nour

Modern Era: Dina, Randa, Tito, Dandesh and the foreigners Asmahan, Soraya, Leila, Nour, etc...

That's pretty much how I would group it too!

Originally Posted by shems

I agree that one should try not to get too hung up on the labels.

I think the best way to get a good idea for yourself how the puzzle fits together is to watch a lot of footage, getting to know the style of several of the most famous dancers by sight, keeping in mind the general timeline in which they lived and learning a little about their lives. Also, understanding a little about the politics of their time can be helpful. Also keep in mind they wont be doing raqs sharqi in every on of these old film clips. Sometimes they literally are doing ballroom, or latin, or flamenco, jazz or tap dance even, and as mentioned they are playing characters, so a circus character might dance differently from a Bedouin character who dances differently than a glamor girl character and so on.

You will also find each dancer is unique in her interpretation of raqs sharqi, in any era. So it takes some time to see the elements that tie some dancers together more closely than others. There is no single set of descriptors that can delineate a "classical" era, but you get a sense for who you might generally group with whom by identifying elements and timing they share.

Looking at just Egypt, for myself I group something like this:

Golden Era: Badia Masabni, Tahia Carioca, Samia Gamal, Naima Akef, Katy, Naemet Mokhtar, Zeinat Olwi, Fairouz (child star - not the singer), Nebawiya Moustafa, Liz & Lynn

The Bridge from Golden to Modern (some come earlier, some a little later): Suhair Zaki, Nagua Fouad, Fifi Abdo, Lucy, Mona Said, Shu Shu Amin, Sahar Hamdi, Aza Sharif, Nadia Hamdi, Hanan, Nelly, Zizi Mustafa, Aida Nour

Modern Era: Dina, Randa, Tito, Dandesh and the foreigners Asmahan, Soraya, Leila, Nour, etc...

This is a very good approach.

thanks all for your feedback, mmm, i wouldn't say getting hung up on labels, but developing a clear definition and idea of the evolution. you read, or hear, see clips, here and there. which outwardly may seem to be contradictory.

i've little or no background knowledge of Egyptian belly dancers. of whatever style. I've seen names mentioned, checked them out on youtube, otherwise just performed searches on belly dancing to a song i like. but moreso focused on just learning the dance.

most of who i've watched a contemporary male belly dancers, as i'm a guy, dancers like Tito, Serkan, Khaled, Tarik, and DaVid.

also so far i've been focusing on Baladi, and i am turning my attention alittle more Sharki now. As the more learn of Baladi, it seems quite restrictive, you've to move a certain pace, and moreso mimic an authencity. Sharki seems to have more room for self expression to the music.

but i think one the reasons i went for Baladi, is it reminded me musically of older pop folk music from Bosna, (i'm part Bosnian) and at the time, i didn't have a teacher, and Ranya Renee gave a very educating DVD lesson with a rich vocabulary of moves, and a insight into the music and culture. but i don't like wearing the galabeya, and the slowness of with which your suppose to move.

Originally Posted by ababalond

i don't like wearing the galabeya, and the slowness of with which your suppose to move.

The slowness does depend on the music - there is plenty of beledi music which you dance faster to - but still in a beledi style.

Originally Posted by kashmir

The slowness does depend on the music - there is plenty of beledi music which you dance faster to - but still in a beledi style.

i just feel for myself sharki would be a more preferable avenue to approach, although i'm fond baladi, there are certain aspects of its authenticity and stylisation i'm not in sympathy with. but honestly, whatever style i learn, be modern sharki, or new cairo, what learnt in with baladi vocabulary i imagine would seep through, but the stylisation is going to be different.

i'm not sure whether that is right or wrong, one is continually learning, and just see what journey working with different style teachers takes me on.

To me also the word "classical" implies the perfection of a certain form in terms of artful harmony, proportion, refinement yes - but not playful overrefined mannerism (which is seen as a sign of decay that might follow a classic era), in short a highly developped idea of what is beautiful, optimal from an esthetic standpoint - the ideal! What is "classic" has to be something from earlier times which isn't overcome, though, and it's an eternal ressource for a culture where it periodically returns to using it as inspiration, like in a renaissance or in a classicist period.
When I ocasionally hear an Arab standpoint, it seems like always it would be Samia Gamal who'd correspond to this idea, but also maybe Suheir Zaki.