Thread: "Second Nature" Dancing

How does one's dance get to be "second nature?"

Does "second nature" = good ability to improvise?

If you believe your dancing to be second nature to you, do you know when it happened (after a certain period of time, after a particular performance, etc) or did you just realize one day that your dancing took on a very spontaneous quality to it, IOW, you weren't thinking or planning about what you would do next?

Heck, what does "second nature" mean to you?

Are these questions esoteric? Rhetorical? Both? Neither?

Awaiting your replies . . .

Deborah

Hi! Not sure when it happened, but when I found the right teacher who inspired me to dance and to find my own belly dance style then all of a sudden I dance naturally and beautifully. My current teacher says my moves are non-technical, but the moves are beautiful because I dance from my "soul".
I also prefer improvisation and not choreography so I dance to both the beat and rhythm of music.
I think I started to dance more freely after I performed my first solo at student night at a Greek restaurant about a year ago. All of a sudden, everyone was talking about the girl with red isis wings. Even pro dancers were talking about me, a mere student at that time.

Does it count that now I can belly dance to any type of music with singers singing in all languages and even elevator music?

The need to move when your favorite rock & roll/hip-hop/pop song comes on. Is that what you mean?

I was so used to listening to lyrics of Western music that I found it hard to listen to the melody of ME music. I just couldn't wrap my brain around it. That and I was so tripped up in technique that I couldn't figure out how to transition from one move to another.

I don't remember how long it took for me to understand the difference between Middle Eastern and Western music but in the end it was all about how it made me feel when I really listened to the music. I never understood what my teachers meant by "listen, really listen to the music." Now I do. One day it just clicked and I found myself moving to different instruments of a song and moving around the room to the beat.

Is the the same question as "How do you know if it is true love?" ..g.:
Great questions to ask!

I think it "happens" when you have done the moves so many times that they are as "in" your muscle memory, just as walking or driving a car is. You dont have to THINK about those things as you do them, you just DO them. Once you can stop thinking "hip circles now, front side back side..." and you can just do a hipcircle (and other moves) automatically, that is when I think it becomes second nature to perform the moves.

The poster that mentioned music also made me think. To really DANCE well (and improvise) you also need that deeper connection to the music. If you understand the patterns and rhythms that ME songs tend to follow, you can also react to them without over-thinking or over planning, and that adds to your ability to dance as though its second nature.

For some reason when I think "second nature" it relates to music interpretation in dancing, but maybe that's just me. That is, to me it means someone who follows the music extremely well - probably just my raks sharki background where that was so important.

Originally Posted by NazirahDances

I think it "happens" when you have done the moves so many times that they are as "in" your muscle memory, just as walking or driving a car is. You dont have to THINK about those things as you do them, you just DO them. Once you can stop thinking "hip circles now, front side back side..." and you can just do a hipcircle (and other moves) automatically, that is when I think it becomes second nature to perform the moves.

The poster that mentioned music also made me think. To really DANCE well (and improvise) you also need that deeper connection to the music. If you understand the patterns and rhythms that ME songs tend to follow, you can also react to them without over-thinking or over planning, and that adds to your ability to dance as though its second nature.

Yes, I agree. I can recall many a times when I was working in the clubs, literally half falling asleep leaning on the wall at 1 a.m., waiting to do the second show. But the minute I the music started and I stepped on the stage I didn't have to think, I just danced. I knew the music and the steps and it was like I was on auto pilot.

I also agree that for something to become your "second nature" it is like a habit, something you do without thinking about it.

I think there are many aspects of this dance which become second nature as we grown and study. Generally good basic technique comes first, then more advanced technique, musicallity, improvisation,choreographing, ect. I imagine no one accuires them all at once. But I believe for many dancers there is a hallmark performance in which they let go of thinking to much and just work off instinct. Like these skills had already become instinctual, but they hadn't quite realized it or tested the waters.


Bad dancing can also become second nature. Cutting loose doesn't guarantee good dancing. Sometimes I think dancers discount how much work it takes to get to point where GOOD dancing is second nature.

Meredith

Originally Posted by Meredith

I also agree that for something to become your "second nature" it is like a habit, something you do without thinking about it.

I think there are many aspects of this dance which become second nature as we grown and study. Generally good basic technique comes first, then more advanced technique, musicallity, improvisation,choreographing, ect. I imagine no one accuires them all at once. But I believe for many dancers there is a hallmark performance in which they let go of thinking to much and just work off instinct. Like these skills had already become instinctual, but they hadn't quite realized it or tested the waters.


Bad dancing can also become second nature. Cutting loose doesn't guarantee good dancing. Sometimes I think dancers discount how much work it takes to get to point where GOOD dancing is second nature.

Meredith

I was thinking that too - practicing bad habits can also become second nature!..l;,

"when you take dance classes you learn steps and you learn steps and you learn steps. it can go on for a long time. then one day you just learn to dance and it is so different" -Bill Austin

i remember reading an article in Scientific American Mind (now owned by Nature, and the article isn't free to access online anymore, but i put the link anyway) about how when we learn something REALLY well, like when you stretches in the morning become undulations, or you can do a choreography in your sleep, you're no longer using your cerebral cortex to do it. you have to use it to learn it, it's better equipped for those complex tasks. but as it becomes easier and easier your cerebellum takes over and that's why we "don't think about" doing something, because the cerebellum is not consciously accessible. (the article also talks about how "choking" is often the result of trying to think too hard about doing something, your cerebral cortex and cerebellum trip over each other and you freeze)
since the cerebellum is what we breath with, i think it makes sense to say that when it takes over dancing is when it becomes second nature. of course anyone can drill technique into their cerebellum. i'm not sure how we absorb musical interpretation into it though. I'm sure someone could figure it out (listening over and over and over?)
and i think for the emotional aspect, you just need for your soul to speak ME dance. (Martha Grahm's quote that "dance is the hidden language of the soul". some people's souls speak ballet, some speak bollywood, some are multi-lingual, mine speaks bellydance.) if that "language" is deep in you i think the connection between second nature technique and emotional expression will form in your cerebellum on it's own

here's the article: How to Avoid Choking under Pressure: Scientific American

I think a symptom may be when you start 'overthinking' what you're doing on a regular basis. Like Fariha posted above, there's a point where dance moves out of analytical thinking into something that you just do. For me, it happened just recently when I realized that if I wanted to perform a choreo right, I had to turn my brain off and just let my body do it's thing. I've been doing that more and I really like the results so far!

That is true as well. Throughout my career I've seen dancers who just let loose without any regard to techinique. They wanted to be "free to express themselves". While it may be charming in a student, it becomes indulgent the more advanced you become.

A professional dancer has a duty to provide her audience with a good show and not just do what pleases her or him.

For dancing to really become second nature you have had to have extensive training and a lot of practice, to the point where it's like living and breathing. You have to immerse yourself into the dance. It's much like studying a second language. They always say it's best to immerse yourself into the culture where that is all you are exposed to, morning, noon and night.

Dance is second nature when you don't have to think too much about it to do it well.

I see it as the equivalent of being fluent in a language. You speak a second (or third, and so forth) language fluently when you can communicate well with it without having to translate your thoughts from a first language. Of course you still have to think about what you're saying, but you no longer have to think of it in terms of your first language and trying to translate back and forth between one another.

Even when dance is second nature you still have to think about what you are doing to a certain degree, but it's no longer a burdensome process that overtakes your dance, and you look natural doing it.

Originally Posted by norma

That is true as well. Throughout my career I've seen dancers who just let loose without any regard to techinique. They wanted to be "free to express themselves". While it may be charming in a student, it becomes indulgent the more advanced you become.

A professional dancer has a duty to provide her audience with a good show and not just do what pleases her or him.

For dancing to really become second nature you have had to have extensive training and a lot of practice, to the point where it's like living and breathing. You have to immerse yourself into the dance. It's much like studying a second language. They always say it's best to immerse yourself into the culture where that is all you are exposed to, morning, noon and night.

Very true! Even those with "natural talent" or whatever, need training and practice to avoid a "sloppy" look.

[QUOTE=norma;671439]
A professional dancer has a duty to provide her audience with a good show and not just do what pleases her or him.
./QUOTE]



I Love you for saying this so succinctly, Norma. If it's alright with you, I will be quoting this forever.

Originally Posted by NazirahDances

I think it "happens" when you have done the moves so many times that they are as "in" your muscle memory, just as walking or driving a car is. You dont have to THINK about those things as you do them, you just DO them. Once you can stop thinking "hip circles now, front side back side..." and you can just do a hipcircle (and other moves) automatically, that is when I think it becomes second nature to perform the moves.

The poster that mentioned music also made me think. To really DANCE well (and improvise) you also need that deeper connection to the music. If you understand the patterns and rhythms that ME songs tend to follow, you can also react to them without over-thinking or over planning, and that adds to your ability to dance as though its second nature.

I couldn't have said it better myself. And not everything is good for improvising because I do believe some music is more for just listening to.

I agree with a lot of the posts above.

from my experience, dancing became second nature to me because I went to a Middle Eastern nightclub every weekend for a year and just danced as part of the audience/guests (not as the hired dancer). You get familiar with the music and then it tells you which moves to do when, and then you don't have to think any more, just dance (but you must have the training/technique first in order to look good improving or "second nature dancing" as a professional lol). You'll also pick up on the feeling and vibe of the people there.

I think its also important to "let go" and dance from the heart, don't go out there with the idea that you want to be an amazing superstar dancer, because then it just wont work - I just have to be myself. Also try to challenge yourself with different music to keep you on your toes when improv-ing. Pretty much all I do at my shows is improvisation because my instructor (Yasmina Ramzy) felt it was kind of a dieing art and pushes all her students/dancers to be strong at it. There are too many "4 to the right, 4 to the left, combo-combo" dancers out there these days... I love watching a dancer just enjoy herself :)

ok... so I just rambled on, sorry :P

I think the key too is not to think about too much - then you are thinking when you should let nature take its course.

I hope that makes sense!

Originally Posted by Fotia

I think the key too is not to think about too much - then you are thinking when you should let nature take its course.

I hope that makes sense!

Yes indeedy it does!

Originally Posted by Fotia

I think the key too is not to think about too much - then you are thinking when you should let nature take its course.

I hope that makes sense!

That's why we drill and drill, and learn, and practice, and listen listen to the music. So that in our dancing, we are free to DANCE, move rhythmically to the music,to tell a story, express an emotion, relive an experience...
The muscle memories are embedded, our instincts combine with our training to produce - ta da! that elusive "second nature". Called second nature because it is built upon & expands from our first nature - which needs reinforcement!

[quote=JoLynn;677215]

Originally Posted by norma

A professional dancer has a duty to provide her audience with a good show and not just do what pleases her or him.
./QUOTE]



I Love you for saying this so succinctly, Norma. If it's alright with you, I will be quoting this forever.

It's all right by me as I sincerely believe this. We don't have a right to dance. We are given the privilege to dance and get paid for it. I feel this way because I love dancing so much I would do it for free. If I'm being paid, then I feel I have an obligation to my audience to provide a good show, no matter what is going on in my personal life, or how I feel that day etc. etc.

Every one has good and bad days. But I always try to be prepared and do my best and always strive for improvement. That is a true mark of a professional. Not the fact that you are getting paid.

Originally Posted by MellyBelly

I agree with a lot of the posts above.

from my experience, dancing became second nature to me because I went to a Middle Eastern nightclub every weekend for a year and just danced as part of the audience/guests (not as the hired dancer). You get familiar with the music and then it tells you which moves to do when, and then you don't have to think any more, just dance (but you must have the training/technique first in order to look good improving or "second nature dancing" as a professional lol). You'll also pick up on the feeling and vibe of the people there.

I think its also important to "let go" and dance from the heart, don't go out there with the idea that you want to be an amazing superstar dancer, because then it just wont work - I just have to be myself. Also try to challenge yourself with different music to keep you on your toes when improv-ing. Pretty much all I do at my shows is improvisation because my instructor (Yasmina Ramzy) felt it was kind of a dieing art and pushes all her students/dancers to be strong at it. There are too many "4 to the right, 4 to the left, combo-combo" dancers out there these days... I love watching a dancer just enjoy herself :)

ok... so I just rambled on, sorry :P

That is how I started as well. I went to as many shows as I could and immersed myself into the culture and studied what other dancers did live on the stage. I studied the music, the costumes, the lighting, the way the customers interacted with the dancers, just everything. So, buy the time I actually performed in public, I was quite seasoned just by observation alone. And then the real learning began....

"Second Nature" dancing is something that I find a bit difficult to define. Even the great Egyptian dancers who have been brought up in the culture still practiced pretty hard to reach those dizzying heights of greatness.
I started the Oriental dance entirely by accident through meeting another dancer at an Arabic class and I found the technique end of things very strict until I started to dance with an Arab friend of mine. We used to meet up once or twice a week to dance just for the fun of it.We were not so hung up on technique, more expression and fun. At the end of each dance session I then had to display what I had learned to all the women in the family!
However I still practiced technique and went to classes and workshops and now after 20 years I would say you need the balance to achieve the "second Nature" feeling. Learning technique gives you confidence but you need the balance of dancing for fun as well. When you feel you can "let go" and feel confident you are dancing well then I think you have it.