Thread: Karsilama - Morocco's Comparative Karsilama W/S

I asked this question on the BDLA Group but need to repeat here for an answer:

This is a totally dumb rhythm question. What is the benefit of a Comparative Karsilama workshop - and I mean this sincerely, not "snarkily"? I'm really curious about the content but don't understand much about this rhythm. Does it pop up frequently in Egyptian orchestrations and thus in Egyptian style dance or is predominantly a Turkish & Am Cab thing.

Please 'splain to me.

karsilama is typically turkish. I've heard 9/8 in Arabic music, but it's not karsilama at all. Somebody else may know more... and probably does!..g.:

I assume you're referring to the workshop that Morocco teaches? I've taken it, so I'll comment.

This is solely Turkish & American Classic in scope, not even remotely Egyptian. There are a couple of different ways that the 9/8 rhythm can be played in Turkish music. Rampi Rampi is one way; the slow moody 9/8's of Turkish Rom dancing are another. So the workshop explores the differences in how the two 9/8 rhythms are accented, the moods they express, etc. Rocky also talks a bit about Rom culture as part of the workshop.

The benefit of the workshop is to dance more effectively to Turkish music. If you have no intentions of exploring Turkish music in your dance journey, then it's not for you.

Originally Posted by danidance

I asked this question on the BDLA Group but need to repeat here for an answer:

This is a totally dumb rhythm question. What is the benefit of a Comparative Karsilama workshop - and I mean this sincerely, not "snarkily"? I'm really curious about the content but don't understand much about this rhythm. Does it pop up frequently in Egyptian orchestrations and thus in Egyptian style dance or is predominantly a Turkish & Am Cab thing.

Please 'splain to me.

No, alas, not my interest. (rampi rampi is like nails on a chalkboard for me.)

Just some thoughts gathered from various workshops with Artemis, Rocky and a few others:

9/8, Karislama, and a few other "9s" are indeed Turkish. Mostly. There are a number of different rhythms that fall into the 9 category, and they can be tricky. Some are the 'traditional', old-style Am Cab 1 and 2 and 3, 1,2,3 or the more modern Turkish 1 and 2 and 3, 1,2. There are even 1 and 2 and 3...I'm not a musician! These are how I hear them!

Both Rocky and Artie have mentioned that most Egyptians know 9/8, but don't want to play it because of the 'politics'. Remember, there was (and I'm being very PC here!) a huge Ottoman influence in Egypt for a long time. Some Egyptian dancers will include Kash on occasion.

That said, the rhythm, music, and tempo is different enough from 'classic' Egyptian that the general moves of one doesn't fit well with the other. Plus there's the whold different attitude thing.

Give Kash a try! If nothing else, it's a whole new kind of workout.

Kitty

Originally Posted by danidance

No, alas, not my interest. (rampi rampi is like nails on a chalkboard for me.)

Far be it from me to comment, BUT "Chaderim Inistine" ("Raindrops Falling on my Tent" - no kidding!..g.: ) - the correct name of what (again) Americans have misnamed "Rompi" (but it's OK!) is NOT the only Oriental style Karsilama & I don't even use it in my Comparative Karsilama workshops at all.

I prefer the more complex ones *&* the Roman or Sulu Kule Karsilama variation.

The fab ladies who took that workshop loved it, because it's info-packed & accurate.

Aunt Rocky

e-mail: <morocco@casbahdance.org>
web: http://www.casbahdance.org
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The comments on music leave me with one question - what category does the song I see most often referred to as Rumeli Karsilamsi fall under? Oriental or Roman? (Since I have it on several CDs with Turkish musicians and the word "Gypsy" in the title, I'd conjecture the latter.)

Originally Posted by steffib

The comments on music leave me with one question - what category does the song I see most often referred to as Rumeli Karsilamsi fall under? Oriental or Roman? (Since I have it on several CDs with Turkish musicians and the word "Gypsy" in the title, I'd conjecture the latter.)

Both. Totally depends on the "accent" in the rhythm & the way it's played.

Rolling & "hoppy"/ peppy, Oriental.

Heavy:
DOM di-da DOM di-da DOM di-da DOM DOM,
da-da-da Dom-a da-da Dom Dum

It's Roman/ Sulu Kule

THEN there are versions that start out Roman, then get "peppy"/ even-rhythmed (as much as a 9 can be "even")

I'd have to hear the individual cuts to tell you.

Confused yet?..c::

Rumeli often simply refers to Turkish-born people of Greek origin, so the writer, singer, musician or melody could have or have had some connectiion to Greek something ...

FYI: like with the "b" word in the title on lots of non-Oriental dance LPs from the ME or US in the late '70s (All of Omar Khorshid's LPS & the "An Evening at the Cafe Feenjon", with its "Belly Dancing" overtab come immediately to mind), "Gypsy" in the title on Turkish CDs is a SALES GIMMICK.

"Roman" usually means the tune or the musician playing it IS Roma.

Gotta go!
Aunt Rocky

e-mail: <morocco@casbahdance.org>
web: http://www.casbahdance.org
New York, NY

Register NOW for an Exciting Summer Weeklong Seminar
in my great BIG studio: August 4-10, 2007
http://www.casbahdance.org/WEEKLONG.htm
MAGICAL MIDEASTERN DANCING IN MID MANHATTAN!!!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
!!!ONLY ONE SLOT LEFT!!!
"CAPTURE CAIRO" June 24-July 7 or 9, 2007!
INCOMPARABLY FABULOUS CAIRO/GIZA!
& the AHLAN WA SAHLAN FESTIVAL! &
you can take an OPTIONAL NILE CRUISE!
DANCE, DANCE, DANCE. DANCE, DANCE!
http://www.casbahdance.org/CaptureCairo.htm
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
If I can't dance, I don't want your revolution!
Emma Goldman
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
We should consider every day lost on which we have
not danced at least once. Friedrich Nietzsche
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I was unable to attend Morocco's workshop and I am still heartbroken by the whole thing.

I get the smilies to work again! Dang! Only it wasn't going to be a real smilie -- it was gonna be a cry-ie!

Deborah

Heyy dont get Greece out of the Karsilama lol

Karsilamas (this is the way we say it in greece) is one of our beloved traditional dances that still survive, and we enjoy dancing it, along with greek chifteteli and other folk dances.

So, what karsilama songs/CDs does anyone recommend? I have a couple in my collection, but would love more.

Thanks!
AlairaCat

Some song titles:

Mastika
Rampi Rampi (also called Caderemen Ustune)
Dere Geliyor
Tamzara
Marinella

Karsilama by Selim Sesler and Brenda MacCrimmon. He's one of the best clarinetists ever (of Roma descent, as I understand - see the movie "Crossing the Bridge"), and she's not half bad as a singer, either. Mostly music for listening, not dancing - but it's GOOD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpLN3KRjsW0 - wooooheeee!!!!!

That was wonderful - lovely music! Thanks!

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Some song titles:

Mastika
Rampi Rampi (also called Caderemen Ustune)
Dere Geliyor
Tamzara
Marinella

Thank you for such specifics - I appreciate it!