Thread: Dating dance?

We often talk about separating (or at least understanding) different dance styles within Egyptian and Oriental dance, but what about dating dance?

Do you just present the dance as the way you do it now or do you teach in terms of dates or people..ie. Vintage Classical, 1970' Baladi, Samia, Soheir Zaki etc?

This dance has changed somewhat over the last hundred years, how do we record that as dancers and recognise those changes?

How important is dating to the dance in terms of understanding and teaching?

Misread..I thought this was you getting hung up on courtship dances Ho hum time to wake up..g.:

LOL, me too.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

Misread..I thought this was you getting hung up on courtship dances Ho hum time to wake up..g.:

LOL like the first two replies I was on a different track too, but...Good question.
For me it's important enough to want to share any knowledge of a move or style with others by saying where I first saw it.
If this dance is to be ever considered "just a dance" on a par with other popular styles ie; jazz, tap, ballet, you get the picture, then Yes, the different eras and great dancers of the middle east become very relevant.

well look on the brightside, it attracted you over here....g.:

Now for some thoughts please! lol

I differentiate when I'm showing videos in class, of course, and try to give my students a representative sampling across the timeline.

When I put together my website articles about different styles I organized the Raqs Sharqi and Turkish Oriental clips by era and talked about the evolution of each style over time. I think it's important to *viewing* the dance to understand the eras and styles and evolution.

However, when dancing, I've personally never chosen to do a period piece. I may someday, and I enjoy it when someone else presents a Golden Era piece or whatever. But it's not how I've approached my music in the past. Hopefully my movement choices are informed by my understanding of the music and what's appropriate, and that might sometimes include the period and its style. But it's not a conscious decision that I make to select a particular vocabulary.

The more knowledgeable you are as a teacher, the more I expect you to be able to provide this kind of information. However, a lot of dancers live in a world where everything is a grand, mushy stew of "belly dance," and they struggle to know the differences between folkloric/untrained and theatrical/refined stylizations, or Turkish vs. Egyptian vs. Lebanese style markers, so adding another layer of information onto things they can barely differentiate now is not realistic.

The next level of expertise seems to involve having the skills to make a rough hack at these divisions (e.g., relaxed or flexed foot instead of pointed toe on folkloric, Egyptian "columnar" posture), and then to draw a historical line of pre-Dina/post-Dina. I don't get a sense that these dancers have much refinement in their understanding of the differences between Nagwa Fouad's era and Samia Gamal's, but they can at least see that someone like Randa is in a different stylistic sphere than the older dancers. I suspect part of this is that many of today's students train with teachers who had easier access to videos of Dina and her contemporaries via the information explosion that started in the 1980s, whereas it takes a bit more initiative to track down footage of the older dancers. It's also easier to get first- or second-hand information about the dancers who are still performing. Teachers who have gone to Egypt and seen Dina or Randa perform or who have taken workshops with them elsewhere are not particularly rare, but how many dancers have seen Tahiya Carioca live or know someone who did?

BTW, I also thought this thread was going to be about some sort of courtship-ritual folk dance.

I think it is very good to know the history of the dance & how it has changed. What I am watching at any given time does influence how I dance at the moment. When I am teaching, I like to tell people where I picked up various tidbits so they can (& I'm probably dreaming here!) go research those dancers too. I find it interesting when certain movements or combinations are attributed to dancers in the last decade or so & then I catch a clip of the same movement going back at least a couple more decades- we're not all so impressively innovative as we like to think, sometimes! It is good to know for personal growth, but, when I'm performing, I don't come out & say "& here is my dance inspired by *golden era dancer x*"

& after everyone else's response- my initial thoughts were split between whether this would be about a courtship dance or about whether dedicating oneself to dance compares to romantic relationships (let's just say hubby is lucky I take my vows seriously...)

Originally Posted by Aziza_UAE

LOL, me too.

LOLOL! Me three! I've been dating too much lately. ,r:;

I've never taught "according to" just pass on the current knowledge I gain.
However I do suggest encourage those students who want to look at the development of the dance to consider different era.
Usually I start with Samia,Tahia et al but I am , thanks to Bhuzzers amongst others constantly finding less well known dancers of the era.
The first dancers I saw on film though were Mona,Lucy and Fifi then Nagwa and Soheir and Azza but not in terms of dating accurately but of them as important movers and shakers and being available on film!.
I suppose I'm still vague about where these fit on a time line.
And there must be so many great dancers of the time who we know little of purely because they aren't on film .
Then came Dina and she surely held a pole postion.
I'm trying to think of who featured on my consciousness after that and it would be watching AWS videos of Lucy (still there) Asmahan ,Nour,Soraya and Yasmina(foreigners)
Around this time Jillina and BDSS were on the radar
Then Randa
Camelia

a very personal ( and incomplete) impression

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Egyptian "columnar" posture

i can't be the only one, so i'll just ask it publicly: what does this refer to?

i think how important it is to teach depends on what level the students are at. if you've got a bunch of hobbiest students in a "hip bone's connected to the leg bone" class, just letting them know about/giving introductions to all the topics that are out there is enough, imo. i send out emails every week with a different topic telling them a little about it and pointing to where they can get more info, but don't get into it too much because my students are still figuring out that their ribs aren't connected by steel rods to their hips.
at intermediate stages, depending on what you call "intermediate", i think it's fair to expect more dedication and knowledge/understanding. by then i'd think the dancer should have an inkling as to what style they enjoy and start learning more about it, inc. it's evolution over time.

I do incorporate a timeline as I give info to my students. It is very important to me to give a feel for the history and development of Belly Dance in the West, showing the roots in the Middle East, and how what we commonly learn N.America differs from "the authentic".
I utilize statements such as, "This movement was popularized by Egyptian dancer Sohair Zaki in the 1960's, seen by many of us in Egyptian movies that began to hit the West in export videos in the 80s."
I have a timeline overview on my class site, and encourage them to be aware of "eras". To be aware that it is a complex subject.
Since this goes over the head of almost all of them lol, I figure some sublimal info is getting thru at least.
However it does seem to pique interest and some will ask questions; then I can point them to more resources for research if they express an interest.
Oh, and I thought "dating" as in "courtship" as well...:-)

Originally Posted by raqFariha

i can't be the only one, so i'll just ask it publicly: what does this refer to?

Originally Posted by Tourbeau
Egyptian "columnar" posture

It doesn't necessarily refer to the way all dancers move, and especially not the way a lot of modern Egyptian dancers move now, but teachers used to distinguish the idea that Egyptian dancers tended to be more contained and internalized in their movements than Turkish ones by saying that the Egyptians danced in a "column." For example, the Turkish hip circle tended to be wider and flatter than an Egyptian one, the idea being that the Egyptian dancer could do her move while contained in a person-sized tube, but the Turkish one couldn't. It's a generalization that isn't as apt as it once might have been.

I think that's referring to keeping the arm paths along a narrow 'column' of the body (Sahra teaches this specifically), and also the fact that Egyptian style stays mostly upright, except for those huge hip circles of course ..l;, and doesn't throw the energy outward like other cabaret styles.

I do reference some moves & styles, but I think you're right in most students living in the big mushy bellydance fog

and can I say how impressed I am that you're sending out info every week? that's amazing! way more than I can handle for sure! I'm doing good to get a newsletter out once a month -

Originally Posted by raqFariha

i can't be the only one, so i'll just ask it publicly: what does this refer to?

i think how important it is to teach depends on what level the students are at. if you've got a bunch of hobbiest students in a "hip bone's connected to the leg bone" class, just letting them know about/giving introductions to all the topics that are out there is enough, imo. i send out emails every week with a different topic telling them a little about it and pointing to where they can get more info, but don't get into it too much because my students are still figuring out that their ribs aren't connected by steel rods to their hips.
at intermediate stages, depending on what you call "intermediate", i think it's fair to expect more dedication and knowledge/understanding. by then i'd think the dancer should have an inkling as to what style they enjoy and start learning more about it, inc. it's evolution over time.

I do it.
The first 2 years are teqnick and general and props and after we start lol
I get to the point to have special classes dedicated to composers, dancers, eras, styles, decades, countries ouff
Well have a 7 year continuating class ;) and they are damn good ;)

Originally Posted by anthea

I think that's referring to keeping the arm paths along a narrow 'column' of the body (Sahra teaches this specifically), and also the fact that Egyptian style stays mostly upright, except for those huge hip circles of course ..l;, and doesn't throw the energy outward like other cabaret styles.....
and can I say how impressed I am that you're sending out info every week? that's amazing! way more than I can handle for sure! I'm doing good to get a newsletter out once a month -

thank you i decided the info wouldn't fit into the class time, so i pick a topic for each week when i plan the lesson (history one week, men in BD another, basic prop background another, exercise myths...) and keep a bookmark folder of resources i want to send them to, it makes it much easier. ^_~ who knows if anyone ever reads them tho!

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

It doesn't necessarily refer to the way all dancers move, and especially not the way a lot of modern Egyptian dancers move now, but teachers used to distinguish the idea that Egyptian dancers tended to be more contained and internalized in their movements than Turkish ones by saying that the Egyptians danced in a "column."

thank you both, i didn't know that concept had it's own name ^_^

Originally Posted by MariaAya

I do it.
The first 2 years are teqnick and general and props and after we start lol
I get to the point to have special classes dedicated to composers, dancers, eras, styles, decades, countries ouff
Well have a 7 year continuating class ;) and they are damn good ;)

Hi Maria,

I would regard that as extremely progressive.

I know that in Greece, they focus alot on Egyptian dance and I guess the people at the forfront of teaching dance have a lot to contribute to its future and how that looks... we all do.

I am interested in this discussion because I find myself breaking dates down more and more as a monthly teacher. The homogenous teaching of anything goes belly dance does seem extremely dated to me or it just seems fuzzy and fudged for students who ask these questions.

The diversity within ME dance is found throught the styles and era's, so the learning really is endless.

Saaidi has changed so much in 10 years too so I find myslef explaining this and how it has changed and what the influences have been etc.

I think it is a natural part of prgression as a teacher, but I was generally curious to know how many teachers are finding themselves doing this.. perhaps without even realising it.

I think it would be worth us looking at this collectively (in depth) as for me, the beauty of forums is to be able to look at what we are doing as a wider community within this dance as well as talking about the fun things etc.

[QUOTE=caroline_afifi;700352
I think it would be worth us looking at this collectively (in depth) as for me, the beauty of forums is to be able to look at what we are doing as a wider community within this dance as well as talking about the fun things etc.[/QUOTE]
Amen to that!

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

I am interested in this discussion because I find myself breaking dates down more and more as a monthly teacher. The homogenous teaching of anything goes belly dance does seem extremely dated to me or it just seems fuzzy and fudged for students who ask these questions.

I don't think this style of thinking is dated. It's a major and consistent flaw in our educational system. "Homogenous teaching of anything goes" has two causes: a lack of academic rigor and gross self indulgence. Students often aren't taught details of history and style, and consequently don't value them. Many teachers don't encourage their students to seek them out, because learning exposes their own shortcomings. When those students go on to teach, where will the information come from? Being a motivated student is a wonderful thing, but teachers should be teaching, not leaving such a large responsibility of critical learning to students to do on their own outside of class. Of course, one can imagine the impassioned howls if someone were to figure out a way to impose standards on teachers. "Learn all this stuff?! That will take forever! And I want to start teaching NOW! Doesn't it mean anything to you that I love to dance and want to share it with students?!"

The desire to keep things fuzzy is also fueled by a system that prioritizes getting tuition dollars from students who don't care about such details. I'm not saying that everyone who wants to dance must approach it like they are completing a doctoral thesis, but many classes, particularly beginner classes and classes in locations where the dance community is completely self contained, are full of students who have no interest in learning history, culture, and "proper" ways of doing things because they interfere with "fun" and "self expression." As long as students feel they have a right to be ignorant, this problem won't go away.

Saaidi has changed so much in 10 years too so I find myslef explaining this and how it has changed and what the influences have been etc.

Seriously, how would one know this if they lived in a world where "Efred" by Hakim and "Nour al Ain" by Amro Diab were current Egyptian pop songs? Egyptian culture is evolving on a totally different time scale than the backwaters of the Western dance world. You can't expect folks to master what's changed in the last decade if they're still struggling to get a grip on what happened before that.

[quote]

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I don't think this style of thinking is dated. It's a major and consistent flaw in our educational system. "Homogenous teaching of anything goes" has two causes: a lack of academic rigor and gross self indulgence. Students often aren't taught details of history and style, and consequently don't value them.

Hi Tourbeau, thank you for your well thought out post as usual.

I totally agree with the last part of the statement but in the UK, lack of adequate knowledge and information about the styles and history could be viewed as somewhat dated... or not very professional at least. I agree it is generally a consistant floor in our educational standards.

Many teachers don't encourage their students to seek them out, because learning exposes their own shortcomings. When those students go on to teach, where will the information come from? Being a motivated student is a wonderful thing, but teachers should be teaching, not leaving such a large responsibility of critical learning to students to do on their own outside of class.

Actually, I have just started a threwad on what people consider to be the minimum knowledge for teaching.. not much uptake to be honest. It was not about exposing people but looking realistically what we need to know as teachers before we begin to pass on 'knowledge'.

Of course, one can imagine the impassioned howls if someone were to figure out a way to impose standards on teachers. "Learn all this stuff?! That will take forever! And I want to start teaching NOW! Doesn't it mean anything to you that I love to dance and want to share it with students?!"

Yes, and it is pretty much the same reaction to teacher training courses.

The desire to keep things fuzzy is also fueled by a system that prioritizes getting tuition dollars from students who don't care about such details. I'm not saying that everyone who wants to dance must approach it like they are completing a doctoral thesis, but many classes, particularly beginner classes and classes in locations where the dance community is completely self contained, are full of students who have no interest in learning history, culture, and "proper" ways of doing things because they interfere with "fun" and "self expression." As long as students feel they have a right to be ignorant, this problem won't go away.

This could be rectified by some careful labelling, but again this is an area of some serious resistance.

Seriously, how would one know this if they lived in a world where "Efred" by Hakim and "Nour al Ain" by Amro Diab were current Egyptian pop songs? Egyptian culture is evolving on a totally different time scale than the backwaters of the Western dance world. You can't expect folks to master what's changed in the last decade if they're still struggling to get a grip on what happened before that.

[/QUOTE]

..l;, I guess not, but we DO have discussion forums, and it is our job as teachers to do our best to keep abreast of things.

Saaidi has changed greatly in the past decade due to major sudden influences of Reda technique. Students of these folkloric schools have now spread their wings and are teaching all over the Globe. The sudden emergence has been developed throught the Cairo festivals were there is often a scram for a new teacher or something a bit different. The style used to be just something we saw at certain tourist venues but it has spread way beyond that. It is less 'earthy' and more balletic that it ever was.

I dont think this is something which can only be recognised in Egypt.

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

Saaidi has changed greatly in the past decade due to major sudden influences of Reda technique. Students of these folkloric schools have now spread their wings and are teaching all over the Globe. The sudden emergence has been developed throught the Cairo festivals were there is often a scram for a new teacher or something a bit different. The style used to be just something we saw at certain tourist venues but it has spread way beyond that. It is less 'earthy' and more balletic that it ever was.

I'd like more info on this, Caroline. When Tito came to Atlanta, he taught a "Saidi" choreography that seemed very Oriental to me, albeit with an added stick. Is this where the trend is going?

The only I suppose "Authentic" Saidi I've seen has been on Aisha Ali's and Eva Cernik's videos, and those are at least from the 70s and 80s.

Originally Posted by aziyade

I'd like more info on this, Caroline. When Tito came to Atlanta, he taught a "Saidi" choreography that seemed very Oriental to me, albeit with an added stick. Is this where the trend is going?

The only I suppose "Authentic" Saidi I've seen has been on Aisha Ali's and Eva Cernik's videos, and those are at least from the 70s and 80s.

Yes! there is a shift in the saaidi style.. there has always been a 'cabaret' version but these days you actually see this Ballet/Oriental style all over in Egypt!

here are two examples..

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0SBClNHtEA]YouTube - Mohamed Kazafy Saidi.avi[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXBxHu20lWs]YouTube - Saidi show in Indiana 2006 by Mohamed Shahin[/ame]

and

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfukcTjWJyA]YouTube - Tahtib[/ame]

It is quite difficult to find clips of the 'heavy saaidi style' as most of the clips are more recently produced... you can see the skips and light on the feet style Arabesque turns. You never used to see much of this, but now..

I suppose one needs to make a distinction between unintentional/unavoidable ignorance and obliviousness. Not every dancer has the means to study extensively with multiple world-class dancers. Many students are aware of the gaps in their knowledge, wish they had better opportunities, and try to make due as best they can without.

Other dancers live in a world where one workshop on a subject makes them an expert, and they spend little effort keeping up with what's happening in the field. A student might be able to learn that she doesn't like a particular dancer's style in a single workshop, but there is no way you could have learned all there is to know about Tunisian folk dance or Turkish floorwork in four hours, three years ago. If you want any depth to your understanding, then topics demand revisiting and other perspectives. (Personally, I find it particularly irritating when dancers treat keeping on top of the latest costuming trends as the best use of their time and money, but that's just me.)

I get it--not everybody can afford to travel and take premium workshops and private lessons with the best teachers--but there isn't any excuse for not making even a tiny effort to take advantage of online learning resources in this day. There's a lot of middle ground between mindlessly chasing trends and living in a one-note time warp.

BTW, yes, the style certainly is evolving, and I wonder how much of that is the West's fault. You can't blame them for selling us what they think we want. OTOH, the menacing determination and strength of the older tahtib style gets lost when one starts hopping around like a maniac. It's kind of hard to watch that Kazafy clip without wondering how long he'd last in one of those street matches before someone sent him sprawling.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I get it--not everybody can afford to travel and take premium workshops and private lessons with the best teachers--but there isn't any excuse for not making even a tiny effort to take advantage of online learning resources in this day. There's a lot of middle ground between mindlessly chasing trends and living in a one-note time warp.

Yes, it's all about balance.

BTW, yes, the style certainly is evolving, and I wonder how much of that is the West's fault. You can't blame them for selling us what they think we want. OTOH, the menacing determination and strength of the older tahtib style gets lost when one starts hopping around like a maniac. It's kind of hard to watch that Kazafy clip without wondering how long he'd last in one of those street matches before someone sent him sprawling.

I look at the change in Saaidi the way I look at the change of beledi into Oriental ala Badia et al.

The change initially happend with Reda, he took Egyptian Folkloric styles and stylised them for the stage in the same way Oriental did.

The thing is, Reda happend decades ago but the most significant change has been much more recent than that. I am not entirely sure how or why this has happend dutring this time, but I am sure it is a combination of factors.

The world dance scene is one thing, but even your average folkloric group (in Upper Egypt) often consisted of a few older pot bellied men with white moustaches, has been replaced with young slim men who do a lot of skipping and leaping around.

I find noting the date of the dances we study is very helpful in putting things in cultural context. Understanding things about what is happening the politics of a region at a particular time helps us understand why the dance evolved and is evolving in the way it is.