Thread: What makes it Greek?

Honestly, as I pursue research into Oriental Dance, I'm always coming up short on the Greek. Sure, it's easy to find the traditional folk dances, but belly dance is another matter. Other than music, what makes a belly dance a Greek style? Are there typical moves? Typical costumes? When I look for photographs, Greek dancers are normally wearing a traditional bedlah costume/fringe monster. Dance with the veils. Dance in veil wraps. Appear sort of Turkish in many instances. They are just dancing to Greek music is the only discerning thing I can tell right off the bat other than lots of twisting hips versus dropping hips.

where are you finding video? the only videos i've ever found were American dancers (doing Am Cab) dancing in Greece....

Well, this is only anecdotal, but a Greek dancer friend has told me that Greece does not have a native history of Bellydance. Bellydance was brought to Greece by the Turks, and Greek Bellydancing IS basically Turkish style. I would also enjoy hearing some researched info about this.

Well if you are in the US talking about Greek belly dancing, it's really an American invention. In the 60's through the 90's Greek nighclubs or tavernas sprung up in the major metropolitan areas like Detroit, New York, Chicago and Toronto. All these cities had a large ethnic population and they all had Greektown. During these years, especially in the 70's and 80's, the Greektowns were a popular place for Americans and tourists to visit. Unlike the Arabic clubs, the Greek clubs had organized scheduled shows early enough to draw in the American audience.

The clubs typically had a male and female Greek singer, usually imported directly from Greece and a couple belly dancers, and sometimes a folkloric troupe. Often, one of the singers was trained to sing international songs, including English songs like Never on Sunday. The first show was the "tourist" show and the second show was "for the Greeks".

The music was usually a combination of Arabic, Turkish, Greek, Armenian etc. Depending on the international make-up of the local ethnic community. The instruments typically consisted of a keyboard, bass guitar, bouzouki, trap drum set, maybe a clarinet or violin, maybe a dumbek. The bouzouki however dominated the sound of what I call Greek Belly Dancing. It has a bright happy sound.

The style of dancing is basically American Caberet/Turkish. The basic moves are basically the same but the music is typically faster -because of the bouzouki- or much slower- if doing a chifitelli or clarinet solo. The show is typically 5 parts -opening, veil, fast section with a bouzouki solo, slow chiftitelli for floorwork, fast finale, often a karsilama. Maybe a drum solo. Costuming is a fringed or coined bedlah, full circle skirt, veil and zills.


Unfortunately, I don't have any clips of my dancing in the Detroit Greektown Clubs. Below is a clip of me in CA. This show had a more of an "Arabic/Greek" feel then the Detroit Greektown clubs. I orginally landed in CA while touring with a tour company called "Holiday in Greece". "Holiday in Greece" was a tour company that visited cities that had a Greek population throughout the US and Canada and performed a show in each city. The tours lasted 3-4 months at a time.

Alas most of the Greek night clubs closed down in the late 1990's. The few that remain open don't have dancers anymore. Although throughout the country, a Greek restaurant here and there do like to have dancers for atmosphere, but it really isn't part of the Greek culture.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxm3-bg_ZeU]YouTube - Naima, Detroit Belly Dancer, Vintage Live Greek Belly Dancing[/ame]


This is a clip of my friend Aida while on tour with Holiday in Greece.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywqSRPv4MCg&playnext_from=TL&videos=56_ZpY Cfurs]YouTube - Aida best belly dancer ever[/ame]

"Athena Najat" is an American dancer who also dances in Greece, and she has done quite a bit of research (and had lots of practical exprience) on Greek tsiftetelli and Greek "bellydance." We have others -- Maria Aya is a Bhuzzer, I think.

Most people agree it's not native to Greece, but they still ENJOY it. And modern tsiftetelli looks a lot like baladi to me.

Athena gave a workshop in Louisville and told us that if we chose Greek music with an obvious Maqsom rhythm we would be safe belly dancing to it, because the folk dances and region-specific dances don't use that rhythm.

Therein lies the sum total of my knowledge. But you should contact Athena and Maria.

Piper:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhhYkkCA0Ko&playnext_from=TL&videos=fZL8xj nTicw]YouTube - USS Saratoga CV-60 1984-87 Cruise Athens Greece 02[/ame]
YouTube - USS Saratoga CV-60 1984-87 Cruise Athens Greece 03
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=290sbjdX9xM&playnext_from=TL&videos=F4QKLq PEBX0]YouTube - USS Saratoga CV-60 1984-87 Cruise Athens Greece 04[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN6PLFSe7Hw&playnext_from=TL&videos=PohH0L GJuDs]YouTube - USS Saratoga CV-60 1984-87 Cruise Athens Greece 05[/ame]

to be continued...

There was a different "feeling" dancing to Greek music. When I danced in the Arabic clubs I felt more grounded, more earthbound. The music was intricate and demanding. Originally, Arabic clubs didn't allow floorwork, dancers only used zills during the beledi and drum section and veilwork was basically unheard of. That changed as dancers from Greektown infiltrated the Arabic clubs as it became to expensive to bring dancers from overseas and standards in general loosened up.

With Greek music, when the music was fast I felt like I was flying. A lot of spinning and traveling. And the slow chifti's with clarinet were definately sensual.

To further illustrate, this is a video of my friend Shadiah dancing to Arabic band in Dubai. Shadiah was a mainstay in Detroit Greektown clubs from the 1970's through the 1990's. Her style of dancing, whether she is dancing to Greek music or Arabic music is exactly the same. Shadiah was one of the few Greektown girls who did not do floorwork. Most did.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EWeR9jP2ak]YouTube - Shadiah, Detroit Belly Dancer, Pink and Black Bedlah[/ame]

That is really weird this thread just came up as I just asked Maria Aya the exact same question elsewhwere.

I want to know if there are specific movements/characteristics which are found in Tsiftitelli (still cant spell it!) and not found in other Oriental styles.

there was a discussion not long ago about tsiftetelli here on bhuz
take a look
http://www.bhuz.com/forum/rest-belly...en-greece.html

The Greeks are European, you cant expect them to have native bellydancing. Bellydancing to them is like bellydancing to the rest of the white people. It was brought either by Middle Easterners (Arabs or Persians) or Central Asian Turks.

And just to clarify when I refer to Greek Belly Dancing it is different then Tsfititelli although the music can be the same. Greek Belly Dancing is the style of stage dancing performed in the American Greek Restaurants during the 60's90's.

Tsiftelli is more of a social dance.

If this song was played for me on stage and I was belly dancing, I'd me shimmying like crazy to follow the bouzouki. But notice the laid back easy movements of these dancers:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzv-dNj5qeo]YouTube - The Levendes Live! - Tsifteteli[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBxavY8umns&feature=related]YouTube - Tsiftetelia - Pes to mou ksana, Anapse to tsigaro & others[/ame]

Thanks Norma for all the awesome info, experiences and clips!!

Wow! Such fantastic clips. Well, now I'm on the hunt for Greek music and a gigantic fringe monster..

Originally Posted by norma

To further illustrate, this is a video of my friend Shadiah dancing to Arabic band in Dubai. Shadiah was a mainstay in Detroit Greektown clubs from the 1970's through the 1990's. Her style of dancing, whether she is dancing to Greek music or Arabic music is exactly the same. Shadiah was one of the few Greektown girls who did not do floorwork. Most did.

YouTube - Shadiah, Detroit Belly Dancer, Pink and Black Bedlah

I danced through my twenties at Greek places and often with live Bazouki music. I just did what i did but adapted it to the Greek songs the way in which I would if it was any non Egyptian piece of music.

What I cant seem to get my head around if there is a specific Greek belly dance style which defiines it from Turkish, Lebanese and Egyptian.. other than the obvious thing of the music.

PS I like this dancer, she reminds me of Nagwa!

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

I danced through my twenties at Greek places and often with live Bazouki music. I just did what i did but adapted it to the Greek songs the way in which I would if it was any non Egyptian piece of music.

What I cant seem to get my head around if there is a specific Greek belly dance style which defiines it from Turkish, Lebanese and Egyptian.. other than the obvious thing of the music.

PS I like this dancer, she reminds me of Nagwa!

In my opinion, Greek Belly Dance is really American Caberet/Turkish style belly dancing done in Greek restaurants with music that features Greek music and especially the bouzoukee sound.

i remember asking about dancing at a Greek restaurant on the Shira.net tribe awhile ago. she mentioned that, other than the obvious Turkish influence, many of the club owners in Egypt were Greek at a time, so bringing that influence in is fair too, depending.
beyond that and my experience of dancing only 1 year at a single Greek restaurant (owner grew up in the US. so it's doubly not generalizable) where they only care that music is either fast for flashy (slow is only OK if we have something dangerous on our heads) i can't add anything.

What is Tsifteteli?

I also found this article which answered my questions about Tsifteteli...g.:

I am wrong in coming to the simplified conclusion that Greek Cab is really no different than American Cabaret? Considering that the influences are mostly the same. To me, in watching it, the feel is generally the same as American just to Greek music.

This is a plus for me, and all dancers really. It opens up a whole new venue of music to Explore. My musical coffers are full of ME music, Turkish music, Balkan music, and American Tribal. Now for some Greek.

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

What is Tsifteteli?

I also found this article which answered my questions about Tsifteteli...g.:

Very informative! Thanks for sharing this post.

Originally Posted by AllyisLuma

I am wrong in coming to the simplified conclusion that Greek Cab is really no different than American Cabaret? Considering that the influences are mostly the same. To me, in watching it, the feel is generally the same as American just to Greek music.

This is a plus for me, and all dancers really. It opens up a whole new venue of music to Explore. My musical coffers are full of ME music, Turkish music, Balkan music, and American Tribal. Now for some Greek.

as Norma mentioned, the dancers above ARE American dancers, with the tv show as an exception.

Originally Posted by raqFariha

as Norma mentioned, the dancers above ARE American dancers, with the tv show as an exception.

Pretty much although as a caveat, not all the music we danced to was Greek. The Greek bands often played popular Arabic songs like Aziza and just played them Greek style. The typical format would be a fast opening song, veil work done to either a rhumba or a slow chiftitelli rhythm. A couple songs I remember the band playing for veil include Ta Mavra Matia Sou, Lawrence of Arabia, but they had their own improv compositions as well. The veil was usually followed by a fast piece featuring a bouzouki solo. Then another long slow chiftitelli,usually with clarinet for floorwork and to go through the audience. Then another fast song to close, maybe a karslima and trap drum solo.

The sound of the music is key. You need the bouzouki for fast, and they love clarinet for the slow.

Originally Posted by norma

Pretty much although as a caveat, not all the music we danced to was Greek. The Greek bands often played popular Arabic songs like Aziza and just played them Greek style. The typical format would be a fast opening song, veil work done to either a rhumba or a slow chiftitelli rhythm. A couple songs I remember the band playing for veil include Ta Mavra Matia Sou, Lawrence of Arabia, but they had their own improv compositions as well. The veil was usually followed by a fast piece featuring a bouzouki solo. Then another long slow chiftitelli,usually with clarinet for floorwork and to go through the audience. Then another fast song to close, maybe a karslima and trap drum solo.

The sound of the music is key. You need the bouzouki for fast, and they love clarinet for the slow.

This is exactly how I grew up dancing in the late 70s.

Fast fast fast and zill zill zill!

And I loves loves loves that clarinet! ..g.:

Deborah

Originally Posted by casbahdance

This is exactly how I grew up dancing in the late 70s.

Fast fast fast and zill zill zill!

And I loves loves loves that clarinet! ..g.:

Deborah

Yassoo kukla!

Thank you Norma and others for your insight and sharing the wealth of knowledge you acquired from "hips-on" experience.
I've been dancing in a Greek restaurant in Banff for 3 years. I bit of a shock from the Arab gigs I'd been doing in Ottawa for the past 4. I've only been able to find ONE "Greek" bellydance CD.
Stav, the owner told we when I started tere: "Most of the audience members are non-Greeks from around the world. They can't tell if your music is Greek, Egyptian or Lebanese. I can but just dance to whatever you prefer that will make a good show. You're the expert when it comes to music".
I throw in a Greek song or two, out of respect. I dance my usual Egyptian style but with a little more "spunk" and grapevine steps. ..l;, Took a little while to cease just shimmying to the bouzouki. Fun, but not my favourite music to dance to.
When I learned that there is no such thing as "Greek Bellydance" since it's imported into North American restaurants (hot chick in pretty costume dancing while people eat - what a great idea!), I stopped stressing about trying to embrace a new style and just dance the way I love to.

Originally Posted by Hala Jamal

Thank you Norma and others for your insight and sharing the wealth of knowledge you acquired from "hips-on" experience.
I've been dancing in a Greek restaurant in Banff for 3 years. I bit of a shock from the Arab gigs I'd been doing in Ottawa for the past 4. I've only been able to find ONE "Greek" bellydance CD.
Stav, the owner told we when I started tere: "Most of the audience members are non-Greeks from around the world. They can't tell if your music is Greek, Egyptian or Lebanese. I can but just dance to whatever you prefer that will make a good show. You're the expert when it comes to music".
I throw in a Greek song or two, out of respect. I dance my usual Egyptian style but with a little more "spunk" and grapevine steps. ..l;, Took a little while to cease just shimmying to the bouzouki. Fun, but not my favourite music to dance to.
When I learned that there is no such thing as "Greek Bellydance" since it's imported into North American restaurants (hot chick in pretty costume dancing while people eat - what a great idea!), I stopped stressing about trying to embrace a new style and just dance the way I love to.

When I toured with Holiday in Greece we did a show in Banff. I wonder if it is the same restaurant? That would have been in the late 1980's?

It is nice that you throw in some Greek music as it creates a different atmosphere then traditional Egyptian.

A little anecdote from years gone by:

I used to sub occasionally for a former student of mine at a Greek restaurant. They had live music for many years -- the fabulous John Bilezikjian was there for quite a while -- then switched to CDs. It being a Greek restaurant, and the fact that I had danced "AmCab" sets to live music, I continued in that vein when they went to CD format.

Lo and behold, the owner one day told me that he preferred Arabic sets! At a Greek restaurant!!! It made sense, as some of his regular customers were of ME descent, and his family was part ME, so I just changed my music and changed my costuming.

Easy peasy, but very surprising!

Deborah

ps: thank goodness he told me about his music preferences rather than just telling the house dancer he didn't want me any more. I haven't done regular restaurant work much (I don't like it as a regular gig), but that was definitely the best working experience I ever had with that type of venue. The tips were terrible, but it was a very nice place to work.

[QUOTE=norma;708215]And just to clarify when I refer to Greek Belly Dancing it is different then Tsfititelli although the music can be the same. Greek Belly Dancing is the style of stage dancing performed in the American Greek Restaurants during the 60's90's.

I wonder if the Ciftetelli on a CD I just bought is Greek...it sure sounds different than the ones I'm accustomed to. If I can find it on youtube I'll post it.

I really like Greek music and am impressed that the singer in the second video maintained her decorum whilst being pelted with flowers at point blank range...that is professionalism!

When I danced on the Holiday in Greece tour, the people use to smash plates at me! I had to resort to dancing on chairs and table tops as I danced barefoot.

Norma, I used to dance barefoot until I similar incident happened to me this past winter! Now it's half-soles all the way since the restaurant is always too packed so there are no free chairs or table space to dance on ;-)
And yes, it was the same restaurant!!! There's only ever been the one and the same family (the Carlos family) runs it. Here is the website: Welcome - Balkan the Greek Restaurant - One of the Best Banff Restaurants They renovated a year and half ago but in the photo gallery you can see a picture of the old decor that you would have seen. What a great coincidence. If you ever come to Banff, I hope you'll give me a shout!!!!