Thread: Veil head wrap - inappropriate?

Hello!
I was wondering if the popular veil wrap around a dancer's head where only her eyes are showing is offensive to some people (Middle Easterners)? Especially the action of removing it?.w.:
Here's the situation: I have a dance for my troupe where we are dancing to non-traditional belly dance (techno-ish) an we enter when the music is slow and whispy with our heads wraped, then we remove them (in a non-sexy, non-strippy way). It's all very pretty and innocent, but is this considered too kitsch or culturally offensive for dancers to do?
Thanks for any input you offer!

I'm not Middle Eastern or Muslim, so my opinion may not be what you're looking for, but I really don't like the veil head wrap. Apart from the problem of evoking a symbol of religious modesty and then removing it, however innocently, for me the niqab is too emblematic of serious women's rights issues for me to appreciate it being playfully imitated in North American dance.

I don't think it's a problem. It would work just fine at Al Amir, for instance.

I know a lot of dancers really have issues with this, but working in a ME club for as long as I have, I have only gotten VERY positive responses on the few occasions when I've worn a small face covering (like a niquab, I have a small golden one that I've used on occasion). FYI, most Arab guys think it's really hot when all you show is your eyes. So it may be seen as really sexy by Arabs, but in my experience it's not generally offensive.

Now what WOULD be offensive is to cover yourself in Muslim dress from head to toe and then proceed to take that off and do a belly dance, or (as has happened in the past) to wear muslim garb and present that as some kind of repression and do a politcal dance based on that. But to just do a head wrap or wear a decorative face veil is usually not seen as offensive by Arabs (once again, in my experience).

Also, IMO, we are WAAAAAY more sensitive about this than they are.

I feel the same as Ainsley. I guess b/c I was watching the Samia Ju Saidi clip and some person flamed her for wearing a face veil and than taking it off. That person said something along the lines of the dancer probably thinks she's being authentic by wearing a face veil but she's really offending the muslim people by taking it off.
I'm sure the person making the comment was probably some anal retentive teenage kid with nothing more to do than say rude things BUT than again, maybe not.

Now the case of the veil as a cover is different b/c it is a dance prop and I think the audience knows that.

Originally Posted by Michelle75

I feel the same as Ainsley. I guess b/c I was watching the Samia Ju Saidi clip and some person flamed her for wearing a face veil and than taking it off. That person said something along the lines of the dancer probably thinks she's being authentic by wearing a face veil but she's really offending the muslim people by taking it off.
I'm sure the person making the comment was probably some anal retentive teenage kid with nothing more to do than say rude things BUT than again, maybe not.

Now the case of the veil as a cover is different b/c it is a dance prop and I think the audience knows that.

You can't please everyone.

I see your point, THTX, but I think I'm with Ainsley on this one. In some ways, it doesn't matter if the Arab guys think it's hot... it sort of proves the point for me.
And you are such an awesome choreographer , Sa'adiya, I know you can come up with other ways to unwrap :)

Even so, Tamra-Henna is right... you can't please everyone and whatever you decide, just know you may be called upon to clarify it for the curious/offended/generally assy-minded.

Originally Posted by shimarella

I see your point, THTX, but I think I'm with Ainsley on this one. In some ways, it doesn't matter if the Arab guys think it's hot... it sort of proves the point for me.
And you are such an awesome choreographer , Sa'adiya, I know you can come up with other ways to unwrap :)

Even so, Tamra-Henna is right... you can't please everyone and whatever you decide, just know you may be called upon to clarify it for the curious/offended/generally assy-minded.

You know, Aziza does the head wrap thing with the veil. I will have an opportunity to ask her what her experience has been with it.

I think that we are actually talking about two different things here, one, the veil head wrap, which has a long tradition in AmCab style dancing, and the face veil such as the ones worn by Meleyya dancers and even native dancers like the ones on the cover of the Mezdeke albums.

I'm just saying in my experience I've never run into an Arab audience that was offended by either, and I think that we are being overly sensitive and PC in this case. I don't think anyone thinks that a hot pink niquaab carries the same religious significance as a burka or a hijaab. The majority of muslims who wear the hijaab don't even wear the face veil anyway.

Each dancer has to make her own choice, but I'd rather the argument be about the cheesiness of the face veil rather than a manufactured sense of offense.

Here's an example of a Lebanese dancer using a face veil and a head wrap in her dance AND *gasp* SHE TAKES IF OFF!!!!! Cheesy? Maybe, but no one seems to be offended.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLHFt_UiquI"]YouTube - Lebanese Belly Dance 16[/ame]

On or off would be my rule. On for folkloric; off for oriental.

I know Z has Algerian friends who find its use as a dance prop very distasteful. I just think it is tacky and playing up to the worst orientalist fantasies.

Yes, it is used "over there" - but sometimes to shock, offend and offer "goods for sale". Just because it is done "over there" doesn't mean we should follow suit. After all, over "here" dancers simulate sexual congress with poles - does that mean it is okay to add that into a waltz?

Originally Posted by kashmir

On or off would be my rule. On for folkloric; off for oriental.

I know Z has Algerian friends who find its use as a dance prop very distasteful. I just think it is tacky and playing up to the worst orientalist fantasies.

Yes, it is used "over there" - but sometimes to shock, offend and offer "goods for sale". Just because it is done "over there" doesn't mean we should follow suit. After all, over "here" dancers simulate sexual congress with poles - does that mean it is okay to add that into a waltz?

Considering the context of the clip I posted, I doubt it's meant as anything other than a prop. This is a well-known TV show, not late-night adult viewing.

The song the dancer enters with - "Ya Bahaia" - is about a girl whose beatiful eyes make her both an object of desire and make all the girls jealous. In this case, there's nothing shocking about the use of the face veil, it's just alluding to and playing along with the lyrics of the song.

As always, know your audience and do what's appropriate for YOU as a performer and for the audience and venue. But I don't think theres an all or nothing blanket statement that can be made about the use of the face veil or head wrap in belly dance.

Thanks everyone for the valuable input! It helps a lot!

I've seen Artemis Mourat do the thing where only the eyes are showing, and then do a couple of playful head slides, although it's more like a giant envelope than like traditional muslim garb. The context was a very Vintage Oriental set that played with a lot of classic turkish nightclub moves.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Now what WOULD be offensive is to cover yourself in Muslim dress from head to toe and then proceed to take that off and do a belly dance,

actually there is a clip of a troupe doing that on youtube. but i cant find it back

oh, we do the "arabian princess" and the envelop with eyes peek-a-boo,
but i tell my students there are not very PC ;-) and should be done playfully whatever.. it's a matter of taste/style to (as in HOW you do it and how it fits into the routine/dance) ...
also dancing out of it in a stylish manner is important...

we have a big gig coming up for a partially turkish audience, and i've re-written one of the veil choreo's a bit, to take the "arabian princess" out... i've put the "tent" in instead (as i wanted a peekaboo effet at that point)... i dont know, with all the whohaa about that turkish politicans whife who was veiled i just felt i shouldnt use any references to that.

oh, and these for me are all "veil trickes", i dont like the face veil thingie as a prop, but i've seen it done well for melaya leff.

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

actually there is a clip of a troupe doing that on youtube. but i cant find it back

The only situation I've been witness to personally of Arabs/Muslims walking out of a belly dance show was an instance when a troup dressed in burkhas and did a political dance about women's repression in the Muslim world.

found it. it's at about 1min into the clip. the title is in dutch saying "stripping burka's" and it's horrid. this is a "show girl" group from the netherlands as far as i can tell.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsvju5T3M9M"]YouTube - www.danseressen.com - Any stage, any show, any dance![/ame]

i try to post just the link, but it keeps showing up as embedded. does anyone know how to fix that?

Originally Posted by artemisia_danst

i try to post just the link, but it keeps showing up as embedded. does anyone know how to fix that?

Rosey has it set up to embed automatically. Wow, that was pretty bad.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

The only situation I've been witness to personally of Arabs/Muslims walking out of a belly dance show was an instance when a troup dressed in burkhas and did a political dance about women's repression in the Muslim world.

If the dance is intended to make a political statement, though, isn't it sort of supposed to be offensive to some people?

Originally Posted by asimatiyat

If the dance is intended to make a political statement, though, isn't it sort of supposed to be offensive to some people?

Once again, it's a matter of appropriate time and place. The situation I'm thinking of really happened; this was a belly dance seminar show, in which (for once) there was a fairly sizeable number of Arabs from the local community present. They all left during this piece, and did not return.

I can tell you that it was the last time the Arab community of this city came to a belly dance event. Do you think that being provocative in that instance did anything to advance their cause or did it just alienate people?

Personally, I felt like it was completely disrespectful to appropriate the dance for themselves and then use it to rebuke the culture from which it came.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

The only situation I've been witness to personally of Arabs/Muslims walking out of a belly dance show was an instance when a troup dressed in burkhas and did a political dance about women's repression in the Muslim world.

This seems like an excellent response to Rick Fink's post on the "PC and this dance" thread:

Originally Posted by rickfink
Let me pose a question to everyone. Does anyone know a Bellydancer who is predudiced against the Middle East and uses their dance to put it down?

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

Personally, I felt like it was completely disrespectful to appropriate the dance for themselves and then use it to rebuke the culture from which it came.

First off, I understand why you say it is disrespectful and inappropriate. I don't like it when people perform this dance without having any idea of what may offend an audience.

I keep alluding to the NYTime's Ethicist on bhuz, but here it goes again: bad things are still bad, no matter where they may come from (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/ma...hicist-t.html).

There's something universally wrong about controlling a woman's supposed whorish nature while men's behavior goes unchecked. Some consider it our ethical duty to stand up against what we disagree with, so I consider it very courageous of those who performed. Those who left never to return: why did they feel threatened? Do you want people in the audience who are offended by the fact that we consider burqas to be offensive? We can speak our minds (to some degree) in this country; those members of the audience should at least respect that, even if they disagree with what was being said/portrayed through movement.

Why do burqa lovers go to a dance expo? Anyway...

As for myself, there are many facets of ME culture that I do not agree with (and of my own culture...but that's another story for another time...). Whenever I can, I express my opinions about it:

I love whenever I have a black veil, and an entrance with a khaliji section or an entire khaliji song, I throw the veil over my head like a burqa for a brief moment. I don't care if there are Saudis or conservatives (who really shouldn't be there, anyway!) in the audience; that is the whole point. I also have a friend who has successfully based entire routines off of burqas. As far as I know, we have only made people laugh (at least on the outside).

Is it disrespectful to the audience? I don't know...but that isn't my first concern when it comes to a practice that disrespects so many.

I think any political statement in art really depends on the intent, the execution, and the audience. Laurel Grey, one of my favorite teachers, has a group piece called "Cry of the Heart" which features dancers wearing full burka-like coverings. It is presented as a prayer for all the women in the world who are denied the right to express themselves, and uses traditional gestures of mourning from Central Asian and Middle Eastern dance. Laurel works extensively with people from Middle Eastern cultures, including official ambassadors (this is Washington, DC), and is very careful not to do anything that would be offensive to them. Her troupe has been doing this dance for several years and to my knowledge it hasn't caused any problems with anyone.

While I think that "Cry of the Heart" is a beautiful dance and a beautiful statement, however, I can totally see how a similar but different piece could be wildly offensive. There's a big difference between someone who has lived and worked in the Middle East for years and done decades of research on those cultures saying "It's terrible that so many women around the world live under oppressive conditions" and someone jumping on a trendy political bandwagon and saying "Islam is inherently oppressive to women and those crazy Arabs should stop making women cover themselves," without recognizing the more complex aspects of the issue.

Originally Posted by kamilia

I keep alluding to the NYTime's Ethicist on bhuz, but here it goes again: bad things are still bad, no matter where they may come from (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/ma...hicist-t.html).

There's something universally wrong about controlling a woman's supposed whorish nature while men's behavior goes unchecked. Some consider it our ethical duty to stand up against what we disagree with, so I consider it very courageous of those who performed. Those who left never to return: why did they feel threatened? Do you want people in the audience who are offended by the fact that we consider burqas to be offensive? We can speak our minds (to some degree) in this country; those members of the audience should at least respect that, even if they disagree with what was being said/portrayed through movement.

Why do burqa lovers go to a dance expo? Anyway...

As for myself, there are many facets of ME culture that I do not agree with (and of my own culture...but that's another story for another time...). Whenever I can, I express my opinions about it:

I love whenever I have a black veil, and an entrance with a khaliji section or an entire khaliji song, I throw the veil over my head like a burqa for a brief moment. I don't care if there are Saudis or conservatives (who really shouldn't be there, anyway!) in the audience; that is the whole point. I also have a friend who has successfully based entire routines off of burqas. As far as I know, we have only made people laugh (at least on the outside).

Is it disrespectful to the audience? I don't know...but that isn't my first concern when it comes to a practice that disrespects so many.

First off, no one in the audience was wearing a burqa. Some were wearing dresses and headscarves, if I recall, but no one had their faces covered. Secondly, your statements indicate only a shallow understanding of veiling in islamic culture. It's a very complex issue, and it really has little to do with "controlling women's whorish nature". If you were to talk with muslims you'd find that for many it is a symbol of modesty and piety, much like the habits that nuns wear, and I find it more than a little arrogant for any non-muslim woman to decide that she needs to stand up against values that do not even apply to her and she doesn't even fully understand for the sake of her sisters who haven't asked for her intervention. To me (and once again confusing discussions, it's the heart of "bad" orientalism - the enlightened outsider saying "I'll help myself to the parts of your culture which I like, but then I want to spit on your values and traditions I disagree with, because I know better than you what's right."

I also find it telling that you would learn and dance khaliji and then have the nerve to say that Saudis or conservative Arabs shouldn't be in the audience.

There's a school of thought among ME women academics in particular that the veil (by which I mean burqa or chador or similar, full body stuff) is actually very powerful because it blocks the gaze. Particularly from a post-colonialist viewpoint - women veil and (colonising) men can't see them, and that frustrates the hell out of them, because they don't know what's under there and she could be anything. You can't define something hidden under a veil. Moreover, the veil allows the woman inside it to *see out* (sometimes not all that well, but she *can* see). So you have this mysterious walking tent that is looking at you and making judgements about you and you have no idea what it's thinking or how to control it. Plus there is the flirtation aspect of the veil, where women will use their frustratingly hidden status to get what they want by a little show of wrist here, a delicate flutter of fabric there. (That is of course the same kind of "power" that western women resorted to when they didn't have the vote or much else in the way of human rights, but we're still doing it.)

I once saw a dance that used a burqa and I found it immensely powerful and not disrespectful at all. I think the reason for this is that it wasn't a belly dance. The dancer (Vashti of Vashon Island) was dressed simply in black under a green Afghan burqa - the real deal - and her dance was probably more in the contemporary dance line than anything else. It was, to my eyes, about the silence and invisibility of many women all over the world, not just Afghans in particular or ME women in general, and a plea to remember them. She manipulated the burqa around herself to show its physical beauty (they're actually lovely things, burqas, from a textile point of view), and also to bind herself in postures very reminscent of shots we've all seen of executions. You never saw her body apart from one hand. Yes, it's a very western feminist viewpoint she was demonstrating, and she did it with taste, tact and power.

Of course a lot of the audience (it was an Oasis dance camp) didn't like it precisely *because* it was political and upsetting, and this was meant to be our fun hafla. I thought it was bloody superb, myself. It still gives me chills even watching it on video.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Of course a lot of the audience (it was an Oasis dance camp) didn't like it precisely *because* it was political and upsetting, and this was meant to be our fun hafla. I thought it was bloody superb, myself. It still gives me chills even watching it on video.

Yes, an amazingly powerful piece. I loved it - and my non-belly dancer guest rated it as the best piece of the night.(He was coming from the "dance is communication" school of thought)

Although I don't like the concept of forced veiling, it must be remembered that it is also the choice of many women. Two non-Middle Eastern tangents to consider. One is a five year old girl whose mother dresses her in straight ankle length skirts. Very cute - but totally impractical. It means a five year old that spends her time sitting "nicely", cannot run or climb or do kid things.

The other is the comments often coming out of Bhuz with regards to cleavage, nipples, and legs. As a (NZ) European I find it very sad that many women in the States have been brain washed into covering their bodies. I understand many states even have laws against women freely walking around naked in public. All liberal Europeans should unite and force the government to allow women the freedom to be naked. Any woman seen prudishly covering her breasts should be berated until she sees the light.

Originally Posted by SadiyyaBintSaid

Hello!
I was wondering if the popular veil wrap around a dancer's head where only her eyes are showing is offensive to some people (Middle Easterners)? Especially the action of removing it?.w.:
Here's the situation: I have a dance for my troupe where we are dancing to non-traditional belly dance (techno-ish) an we enter when the music is slow and whispy with our heads wraped, then we remove them (in a non-sexy, non-strippy way). It's all very pretty and innocent, but is this considered too kitsch or culturally offensive for dancers to do?
Thanks for any input you offer!

I personally think its an adorable move. I've used it myself, for my choreography to "I wanna see you bellydance" by the Red Elvises. :)

Originally Posted by kashmir

Any woman seen prudishly covering her breasts should be berated until she sees the light.

I had the same thought. After all, men aren't required to veil their breasts. Why should women be held responsible for male lust? Why do we agree to this?

Surely France will soon require all girls to go to school topless?

Seriously, I know that veiling is a complex issue. But AFAICT, muslim culture requires BOTH men and women to be more covered than our culture requires. Men in Egypt don't wear tank tops, or shorts. The women are only slightly more covered than the men -- really the hair is the only difference. In Saudi Arabia, the women are quite covered, but then the men there are covered from neck to wrist to foot, too.

Women here are also slightly more covered than men -- they can go shirtless, we can't.

Obviously I do see the link between the erosion of women's rights and the rise of fundamentalism, but I see that in Christian, Western cultures as well a Muslim ones.

Apparently Muslim men are required to be covered from navel to below the knee, and everything else is optional. But yeah, I haven't seen many running about in only knickerbockers.

According to my friend in Saudi, there is also an edict against wearing your thobe too long (because it's immodest, showing off how flash your clothes are), which has been translated into a love of ankle-freezer trousers among some of the faithful. I have no idea how valid this observation is.

Originally Posted by tamrahennatx

To me (and once again confusing discussions, it's the heart of "bad" orientalism - the enlightened outsider saying "I'll help myself to the parts of your culture which I like, but then I want to spit on your values and traditions I disagree with, because I know better than you what's right."

To me, it seemed that the people who left support the wearing of burqas. That was an assumption on my part, yes ,f::

I've never met a woman who loves wearing a burqa, btw; I didn't think any such women would be in the audience.

Back to assumptions: you have also made some about my experience and knowledge of Islam. You don't know me, just like I wasn't at the performance, so we're both working with what we have here I'm not going to go into how long I've been working with Muslims in this business, the classes I've taken about Muslim history and culture, my travels; I think the most telling detail of my life is that I was engaged to two Muslims, one of which was especially vocal about his opinions on covering. This intimate experience alone took up about 4 years of my life.

Another telling one: some of my studies on Islam were in preparation to become a Muslim. I never took the final step, so you were right about me not being muslima

These experiences are what have shaped my beliefs. Your experiences have most likely been different, and I respect that.

I wish these values and such didn't apply to me, but they do. It is just a consequence of the line of work I'm in and where my future is headed.

People who have such an attitude about being the only enlightened one in the place are despicable! I agree. And spitting? How uncouth!

Now, I'm sorry about my syntax. The comment in parentheses only applied to to conservatives being at a venue with dance, an ironic situation. However, come to think of it, some Saudis here can get into serious trouble back in the kingdom if the family finds out about their cabaret crawling, so it could apply to both. However, this is not my opinion; this is just the reality of the situation. I think it's sad that some people can't openly enjoy my rendition of khaliji and/or arraqs assharqi due to conservatism.