Thread: Baladi vs cabaret style taxim

What's the difference?

I'm teaching two groups of students a dance where one group are baladi girls, one group are cabaret (Modern Oriental) girls, and they have to dance to the same music showing the difference in styles. Most of the dance is choreographed, so is easy enough, but I want them to improvise to a taxim section, and am having trouble describing how to incorporate each style.

So what are some phrases or references I can use to try and describe the difference. Any youtube links would be much appreciated! I must admit, I find it really hard to stay in a pure baladi style during taxim, as my old ballet training tends to creep in, so this is a good challenge for me, too.

Here's some initial thoughts:

Baladi
- Internalised or contained energy
- Arm positions are kept fairly close to the body


Cabaret
- Sending energy out, up
- Bigger, more balletic arms allowed
- Wider repertoire of moves eg: rib circles or 8's, walking across the space

Jewel

Here's an example of big, outward-energy baladi:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAIElPRebG8&feature=related]YouTube - ‪"Bellydance, VOL 2: Instructivo de Saida & Mario Kirlis" (2007) - "LITTLE BALADI" (Versión 2)‬‎[/ame]

And here is small, contained, inward-energy baladi:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7YG7i2WmK4]YouTube - ‪Bellydancer Ranya Renee of NYC: Raks Beledi "Tahtil Shibbak‬‎[/ame]

That first one looks more raks sharqi than raks baladi to me, even if it's done to baladi music. The arm extensions and turns give it a balletic look at points.

Originally Posted by Jungleflowers

That first one looks more raks sharqi than raks baladi to me, even if it's done to baladi music. The arm extensions and turns give it a balletic look at points.

That's the whole point of this thread? I am giving an example of how one can dance to baladi music in a more "cabaret" way, like the OP asked. I am not saying this is how baladi people dance in Egypt.

i love Ranya's dancing, thank you YameYame ^_^
on her Beledi DVD she explains a lot about the style, there might be wording/explanations that click for you or your students there.

Oh derrrr, I have Ranya Renee's baladi DVD!! Of course, I can go to the master and seek her words of wisdom. She really is wonderful at this style.

Those clips are great illustrations. It's interesting, both dancers extend their arms quite far from their bodies, but it seems like there's a different energy. With the first dancer, she's really extending and using her arms to pose, and her gaze looks out. When Ranya raises her arms, she seems to still keep the focus and energy within her torso, she doesn't look along her arm-line, and she soon brings them back within her body's frame. Subtle difference physically, yet one more thing that gives such a different result.

Tamra-Henna (of California) does a great workshop showcasing the different styles if you ever get a chance to take it. Too bad I can't locate my notes for it right now!

Ah, now Tamra Henna has a great baladi on the 'On Fire' DVD, which I could show my students. See, I have all these resources, and I need Bhuz to remind me!

So what about cabaret/Oriental/raqs sharqi? What's some descriptive phrases there?

ummm not sure if I can help here because I've been trying to figure this out on my own body--but Sahra Saeeda talks about high and low centers. Oriental=center of gravity is higher in the body whereas beledi the center of gravity is lower.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

That's the whole point of this thread? I am giving an example of how one can dance to baladi music in a more "cabaret" way, like the OP asked. I am not saying this is how baladi people dance in Egypt.

Did I misunderstand the OP? I thought the point of the thread was to be able to dance to the same music (specifically a taksim) in either a baladi or an Orientale styling?

I am very confused now and will keep my thoughts on the subject to myself until I'm sure of the subject. LOL

(wondering if the confusion is over the word 'taksim' and some of us thinking you mean an instrumental solo and others thinking it means a baladi progression, maybe?)

I have to be honest. I'll agree with you that the first video is an example of a "big, outward-energy" routine to baladi-style music, but I think it is veering dangerously close to also being a routine that is so modern and Westernized that it doesn't have much "baladi" left in it. It's a valid artistic choice, but I was expecting something that represented either a retro Egyptian or AmCab nightclubby approach to contrast with Ranya Renee's more folkloric style, not that.

Somewhere I'm sure someone has uploaded footage of a vintage AmCab dancer performing to a non-chifti accordion taqsim, but I can't find one at the moment. I did find this video of Nagwa, which is interesting because she goes between the styles in this one clip. Particularly with her accordion taqsim, she starts out pretty sharqi and grows progressively more baladi as the music builds.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkrdsIJ1eBM]YouTube - ‪Najua Fouad*** Accordion-Tabla-Kanoon نجوي Ù�ؤاد‬‎[/ame]

And this is a classic example of a dancer performing a baladi-style accordion taqsim with theatrical refinement of movement vocabulary (definitely not "untrained country girl busting a raw move"), but without sacrificing the cultural authenticity of her Egyptian-ness.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXJskVvWl9U]YouTube - ‪Souhair Zaki, Shik Shak Shok‬‎[/ame]

Sorry, I'm just not getting the first girl. Her technique is lovely and she's got great presence, but I'm sure Michael Flatley or Savion Glover could do something fascinating to watch to an accordion taqsim, too--but that wouldn't make it a good example to show students.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Sorry, I'm just not getting the first girl. Her technique is lovely and she's got great presence, but I'm sure Michael Flatley or Savion Glover could do something fascinating to watch to an accordion taqsim, too--but that wouldn't make it a good example to show students.

Tourbeau, with all due respect, she's not just a "girl" and I'm sure you know her by her name...true that she represents her own style which is highly influenced by ballet esthetics and the tastes of her home audiences but to me it's a valid approach of contemporary cabaret-bellydance, also her taqseem-interpretation at the beginning of the piece.

I'm increasingly disappointed in bhuz for something I perceive like a narrowminded Egyptians-only-worship and purism. I love many Egyptian dancers and don't find all foreign schools really appealing, but as we live different lives on different continents, in my eyes a similarity to the Egyptian way shouldn't be the only standard by which we validate ourselves and our ideas about contemporary bellydance.

And that "girl" is a versatile highly capable raks sharqi dancer with sassy earthy hipmoves at the same time. I'll take her with Mario Kirlis' musicians above some actual cutie-of-Cairo easily.

Sorry if I'm bringing maybe controversy to this thread, I don't mean to upstir things but I found your way to talk about Saida belittleing, not doing her justice.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

That's the whole point of this thread? I am giving an example of how one can dance to baladi music in a more "cabaret" way, like the OP asked. I am not saying this is how baladi people dance in Egypt.

My mistake. I didn't realize that the in jewelbellydance's scenario, the cabaret style was being done to a baladi piece, except for the taxsim part.

Anyway, it wasn't a criticism. I've been working on Ranya Renee's baladi set (which is SOOOO fabulous) and trying to become better at keeping my sharqi and my baladi in separate corners. :)

Let me clarify: I have two groups of dancers dancing to the same piece of music. It happens to be 'Raqs el Khail' by Moustpha Sax, which starts off with a slow improvised section (that's what I mean by 'taxim') before going into a straight forward baladi style piece that has saidi rhyhm the whole way through.

Despite it being baladi music I want to show how one could bring a baladi or 'cabaret' feel to one's performance. It'll be a kind of friendly 'modern vs traditional' dance-off and I want to use that to subtly educate my audience that there are multiple styles of M.E. dance in existence.

Now, by the term 'cabaret' I merely want to mean 'non authentic modern bellydance' - the type of dance you get when you include a repertoire of baladi plus Samia plus Am Cab plus Randa Kamel. So the first video clip would be quite apt. Rather than being overly concerned about a definite modern style, I merely want to show contrast baladi vs what-you-usually-see-these-days. And as for the baladi girls, Mahmoud Reda's girls flitting about the countryside in assuit and headscarves are my inspiration.

I'm actually thinking if getting the 'cabaret' girls to use veils to frame their moves in the 'taxim', just to increase the contrast. Even though he educated dancer in me screams 'that's wrong!' Artistic licence for entertainment purposes :-)

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

YouTube - ‪Najua Fouad*** Accordion-Tabla-Kanoon نجوي Ù�ؤاد‬‎

Following this thread with interest. Just wanted to say that this clip of Nagwa is one of my all-time favorite clips.

I'm a huge Suheir fan, too. Great clips.

Originally Posted by Nouria

Tourbeau, with all due respect, she's not just a "girl" and I'm sure you know her by her name...

She's quite a bit younger than I am. Compared to me, she is a "girl." There were no subversive politics behind the word choice.

true that she represents her own style which is highly influenced by ballet esthetics and the tastes of her home audiences but to me it's a valid approach of contemporary cabaret-bellydance, also her taqseem-interpretation at the beginning of the piece.

Before the subject was clarified, I was assuming the point of the OP's exercise was to differentiate between a theatrically refined presentation of "baladi" and a less refined folkloric one, and to that end, the first presentation was considerably more "theater" than "baladi." To me, "baladi" has the presumption of "down-home tradition" to it. When you take away the "down-home tradition," it isn't "baladi" any more--it's just contemporary dance unmoored from its music's cultural roots, and hence, no longer a good example for students to model for authenticity.

I'm increasingly disappointed in bhuz for something I perceive like a narrowminded Egyptians-only-worship and purism.

Nobody is saying that Egyptian is the only way to dance, or Egyptians are the only dancers of authority. Egyptian style is the preferable way of intentionally performing Egyptian dance to Egyptian music, though. The problem with "baladi" is that there has to be some "balad" attached to it. It has to have roots, a contextual history, a homeland for it to make sense. When you're talking about Egyptian "baladi," then, yeah, Egyptians get to set the tone. Could you have "Lebanese baladi"? Sure, but it would be drawing from traditional Lebanese belly dance and debke, not late-period, artsy Bobby Farrah or Mahmoud Reda's versions of Egyptian baladi.

I just wanted to say that I love this idea. To take the same music and dance to it in different ways, what a fantastic way to try on the way a movement feels and how you can change the dynamic of a performance.

Originally Posted by jewelbellydance

Let me clarify: I have two groups of dancers dancing to the same piece of music. It happens to be 'Raqs el Khail' by Moustpha Sax, which starts off with a slow improvised section (that's what I mean by 'taxim') before going into a straight forward baladi style piece that has saidi rhyhm the whole way through.

Despite it being baladi music I want to show how one could bring a baladi or 'cabaret' feel to one's performance. It'll be a kind of friendly 'modern vs traditional' dance-off and I want to use that to subtly educate my audience that there are multiple styles of M.E. dance in existence.

Now, by the term 'cabaret' I merely want to mean 'non authentic modern bellydance' - the type of dance you get when you include a repertoire of baladi plus Samia plus Am Cab plus Randa Kamel. So the first video clip would be quite apt. Rather than being overly concerned about a definite modern style, I merely want to show contrast baladi vs what-you-usually-see-these-days. And as for the baladi girls, Mahmoud Reda's girls flitting about the countryside in assuit and headscarves are my inspiration.

@ Tourbeau I read the original question like: to dance to a taqseem (instrumental solo) there is a more "baladi" approach and a more "cabaret" approach, seeing that the OP's students are studying either or.

Saida in Yame's post stood for the cabaret, Ranya Renée for the baladi style of dancing a taqseem.
Samia Gamal then was an Egyptian cabaret dancer, Saida today is a cabaret dancer both influenced by ballet, different styles, different times.

I think it's great to make students aware of how the Egyptian style is special, in what ways. Awareness is everything while taste is a personal choice. But I think the example was totally valid.

Dear jewelbellydance, i just got certified this past june in Baladi by Sahra Saeeda, so I'll pass on some of her wisdom on the subject of taqsim for baladi:

Spacing: being able to dance in 'one meter square': for baladi taqsim, its meant to be done literally standing in place, low centered, earthy (pushing against the earth), should feel low and rooted. (maybe that could be a major difference having your girls open with a baladi taqsim thats very centered and earthy while the others move around the space more)

Internal Energy returning in: Western dance sends energy out, Middle eastern dance draws that energy into the body (giving it that warm earthy feel)

*Use this time to center, go inward, relax into the music, stay low and centered.

In the intensive, there was a lot of arm movement just remember to draw your arms and hands in, pull the energy into your body instead of releasing it outward.

Hope this helps!

thank you for posting the renya renee....from all of her life times, it is deep.

I think a lot of the confusion came from the way I described Saida's clip, and I should probably have used different words.

Instead of saying "Here's an example of big, outward-energy baladi,"
I should have said "Here's an example of big, outward-energy belly dance done to a baladi progression."

I was in a rush and didn't think of how my description could be confusing, but in any case to clarify again, I was not implying that Saida's dance was baladi style. I was just aiming to illustrate how one can dance in a more Westernized, less internalized and more balletic way to a baladi progression.

Originally Posted by Nouria

Tourbeau, with all due respect, she's not just a "girl" and I'm sure you know her by her name...true that she represents her own style which is highly influenced by ballet esthetics and the tastes of her home audiences but to me it's a valid approach of contemporary cabaret-bellydance, also her taqseem-interpretation at the beginning of the piece.

I'm increasingly disappointed in bhuz for something I perceive like a narrowminded Egyptians-only-worship and purism. I love many Egyptian dancers and don't find all foreign schools really appealing, but as we live different lives on different continents, in my eyes a similarity to the Egyptian way shouldn't be the only standard by which we validate ourselves and our ideas about contemporary bellydance.

Wait a minute - beledi is an Egyptian style. If you want an example of beledi dancing the first dancer would be very marginal. (Starts well but a little frantic at times, those high leg lifts are out of style as is the costuming). Rather this is a modern fusion to beledi music - nice dancer by the way - just not fair dinkum beledi.

I wasn't aware there was a difference! Taxim is Taxim, Beledi is Beledi. To me the only difference between a baladi dancer doing Taxim and a caberet dancer is I'm assuming a caberet dancer is dancing and performing in a club with a live band and audience. Where a baladi dancer might have a smaller group of local people around her.

Any time you are in a stage situation your movements should be a little bit larger and you need to keep the audience engage.

But other than that, I don't see the difference.

Originally Posted by la_soraya

Spacing: being able to dance in 'one meter square': for baladi taqsim, its meant to be done literally standing in place, low centered, earthy (pushing against the earth), should feel low and rooted. (maybe that could be a major difference having your girls open with a baladi taqsim thats very centered and earthy while the others move around the space more)

Hope this helps!

This description is really helpful. Funnily enough, I got the 'cabaret' girls to practice miving through the space in class the other night. I think I know what the differences are, but needed to double-check it with others, and also needed help explaining it. So thank you everyone for helping to that end.

As for all the issues on authenticity and correctness, I like to see a baladi piece danced in recognisably baladi style and I like my students to understand what that is. But I also believe this is a dynamic art performed by millions of individuals with umpteen creative influences. As such, I recognise that this is an ever-changing art. I want my students to know that, to be able to recognise influences and accept artistic choices. Personally, I love homestyle Egyptian dance, and my dance is primarily Egyptian, but there are so many other influences in there that I'll never be purely Egyptian. And I'm not going to beat myself up about it!

Originally Posted by Afrit09

Wait a minute - beledi is an Egyptian style. If you want an example of beledi dancing the first dancer would be very marginal. (Starts well but a little frantic at times, those high leg lifts are out of style as is the costuming). Rather this is a modern fusion to beledi music - nice dancer by the way - just not fair dinkum beledi.

But the question was how to improvise a taqseem either in baladi style OR in raqs sharqi style. Is that so hard to get?

Btw. if you read the answer of jewelbellydance, it should be clear that the question to her was answered in a satisfying way.

Originally Posted by amiraofannapolis

I just wanted to say that I love this idea. To take the same music and dance to it in different ways, what a fantastic way to try on the way a movement feels and how you can change the dynamic of a performance.

Yes, I like to do this. For me, I 'feel' the difference between the different dance styles, most especially in their music. I have found it frustrating that some of my students don't get it, no matter how many indicators I try to point out to them, in the rhythm, the pitch, melody...but I had an "aha, that's why" moment the other night when one students wanted to know what costume she, as a 'cabaret' dancer, would be wearing for the dance, so that she could understand the style better. I suddenly realised that my queues for understanding dance are primarily auditory, music related. She's a visual artist, and she needs to 'see' the difference. Perhaps showing her footage of different styles might help her more than describing them, or asking her to 'feel' them.

Ahh, so many things I want to pass on to my students, but so many challenges in doing so....

Originally Posted by Afrit09

Wait a minute - beledi is an Egyptian style. If you want an example of beledi dancing the first dancer would be very marginal.

No one is saying otherwise, so I'm not sure what is the argument here. ..c::

Originally Posted by norma

I wasn't aware there was a difference! Taxim is Taxim, Beledi is Beledi. To me the only difference between a baladi dancer doing Taxim and a caberet dancer is I'm assuming a caberet dancer is dancing and performing in a club with a live band and audience. Where a baladi dancer might have a smaller group of local people around her.

Any time you are in a stage situation your movements should be a little bit larger and you need to keep the audience engage.

But other than that, I don't see the difference.

Tend to agree here.

"Taksim" by definition is an instrumental improvisation, regardless of the origin of that music (or dancer) so a dancer of any style or nationality would express the music according to how she feels the music and what she wants to project imo.

The point about stage performance vs performance in an ethnographic setting (including a house party here in the US) is well taken also. If you're up on a stage in a big club or a theatre the gesture has to communicate to the back row and that obviously changes the step; this could be true of figure 8, arm movements or hip drops, whatever.

I suppose the degree of theatricality is greater for a performer of raks sharqi rather than for "beledi"; raks sharqi is by definition a fusion and a theatrical performance whereas "beledi" or "baladi" is a folkloric style.

The use of veils to set of "taksim" moves isn't bad actually, veils have been used for many decades now and have become part of the art so I think they're a valid artistic addition to the dance and who knows, back in the days of Sheba maybe people used veils so if "authenticity" is the issue perhaps it's a timeline thing.

Certainly they've become part of the modern oriental dance and definitely wouldn't be used by a folkloric dancer. Plus, they're beautiful so why not?

My two cents.

I love this thread and miss the clips. Is there a way to get the links to work again or do they just have to be reposted with the new coding of Bhuz? Some of the older threads seem to be up and working now. Sorry if i'm being a PITA.....I just loved some of the clips.

Update - I'm silly. I can see what they are if I READ the youtube link. I should be able to find them again....Phew!