Thread: Is baladi step the same as basic egyptian?

I've been running across the baladi step on some dvds and it seems exactly like what my first teacher called basic egyptian which is what I have passed on to my students. Is it the same or is there some subtle difference I can't spot, or did my teacher misname the move? The only difference I can see maybe was that my teacher emphasized the down hip movement as much as the up.
Also, is there a standardized format of names for moves in bellydance that is more recognized than others? I know it isn't written in stone like other dance forms, but is any one format winning out over others? Just curious.

In my experience, names for movements are pretty idiosyncratic. I was never taught a movement by either of these names, but I've heard the term "basic Egyptian" used to refer to travelling weighted hip drops ("Soheir Zaki drops") on the one hand and to travelling unweighted hip articulations (unweighted twists or lifts/drops) on the other.

Because of the lack of precision of these types of names, I personally prefer to refer to movements descriptively: for example, "downward vertical hip figure 8" as opposed to "maya". It's clunkier, but clearer.

The disadvantage to learning shorthand names for dance movements is that it can be confusing when another instructor refers to the same movement by a different name, as it seems may be the case here. That said, as long as you're consistent in the terms you use with your students, they realize that other instructors may not use the same terminology, and they're clear on the basic components of each movement so that they can recognize them by other names, you should be fine using your preferred terminology.

Originally Posted by Ainsley

In my experience, names for movements are pretty idiosyncratic. I was never taught a movement by either of these names, but I've heard the term "basic Egyptian" used to refer to travelling weighted hip drops ("Soheir Zaki drops") on the one hand and to travelling unweighted hip articulations (unweighted twists or lifts/drops) on the other.

I haven't heard Souheir's name attached to either of those names before, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone did. The names are pretty random. I'm used to thinking of "Basic Egyptian" as either step-lift or lift-step, but I know I've heard other moves using that alias.

Because of the lack of precision of these types of names, I personally prefer to refer to movements descriptively: for example, "downward vertical hip figure 8" as opposed to "maya". It's clunkier, but clearer.

I don't use the "maya" terminology myself. Everybody agrees on the "vertical 8" part but some folks define it as the up move and others as the down one, so even that isn't a universal term, and someone (Morocco, I think) lobbies against the "8" part, since Arabic script also has its own symbol for the number eight.

Back to the OP's question--without seeing the moves in question or knowing the names of the teachers using the terminology, it's anybody's guess whether they are the same moves or different.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I don't use the "maya" terminology myself. Everybody agrees on the "vertical 8" part but some folks define it as the up move and others as the down one, so even that isn't a universal term, and someone (Morocco, I think) lobbies against the "8" part, since Arabic script also has its own symbol for the number eight.

That is so odd. I thought maya was the unofficial universal term for a downward eight, not an upward one. Not that it really surprises me, because we really do have the most disorganized naming system for our movements. But in my experience, the upward figure eight is the one with an identity crisis - I've heard every name from sways to snakes to fish.

The basic Egyptian step I learned was step on one foot, then place the other foot slightly out in front without really putting weight on it yet, bump that hip up or forward or some combination thereof, then step onto that foot you place forward, bring the other foot in front, and keep repeating that whole sequence as you travel across the floor.

And speaking of mayas, I've heard dancers accidentally refer to them as "Mayans" now. I can't wait until we see a new dancer posting "I've just starting taking classes, and can someone explain to me why a bellydance step is named after an ancient Mesoamerican people? Did Mayans bellydance too?" ..l;,

If a picture's worth a thousand words, then I guess in dance, a video must be worth 10,000.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLaKPMT5lUU]YouTube - Basic Egyptian[/ame]

Belly Dance Basic Egyptian: Belly Dance Lower Body Moves | eHow.com

Well that video has a little "issue," in that you can't tell if it's supposed to be a step and touch forward or a step and touch out, since she does both.

The way Jamila taught it (and I will assume she is the originator of the name Basic Egyptian since nobody else has stepped forward to claim it) is a step and a touch, and you "tense" the hip attached to the foot that touches.

Suhaila teaches this as a step-twist, and in Jamila's classes she seems to teach it as a step and hip pivot (which loosely translates into a combined lift and twist.)


Because I have seen so many variations on this step, I like to teach just the footwork as the "Step-touch" or "Touch-step" movement, with whatever muscular isolation you want added to it, be that a hip lift, a chest lift, a belly pull in, a hip drop, hip twist, shoulder shimmy, etc.

Originally Posted by Zamira

And speaking of mayas, I've heard dancers accidentally refer to them as "Mayans" now.

I've heard this too! What a mess.

Over the years, I've heard certain terms that I consider to be a lot more common than others, though far from universal.

1) Basic Egyptian -- step-lift (variations possible). Not universal, obviously, but widely used.

2) Egyptian shimmy -- the one Raqia Hassan teaches, with the straighter legs (other names might include straight-legged shimmy, modern Egyptian shimmy, etc. but I think most people who know the movement understand what's meant by Egyptian shimmy)

3) Piston shimmy -- the one built from hip lifts. Sometimes called Turkish shimmy & other names, but again, I think most people who know the movement understand the Piston Shimmy name.

4) Hip drop -- dropping the unweighted hip, usually with a leg release every other drop, as you ALWAYS see when the masmoudi seghir rhythm kicks in

5) Hip lift -- weighted or unweighted hip goes up (sometimes hip rock in Australia and NZ, I think, when the weight is even across both feet)

6) Camel - pelvic undulations (full body in some dance styles) while traveling to the side with footwork flat-ball-ball-ball. (there are all sorts of naming conventions for the variations on the footwork via the Salimpour school, but overall the Camel name seems to be one of the most universal naming conventions, internationally, in the dance. The movement, when limited to the pelvis Egyptian-style, feels very much like riding a camel)

7) 3/4 shimmy(USA) OR Egyptian walk (UK) for the traveling shimmy in which the hips slide to the weighted side, then the unweighted hip goes up and then down again.

8) Undulation -- wavelike movement that rolls downward through the abdominals. Differnet styles move the chest more, less, or not at all, but the movement finishes with the pelvis sliding backward and then releasing a tuck always.

9) The opposing movement to the above seems to be generally called a 'reverse undulation' with notable exceptions. I think Salimpour school says 'undulation down to up' I've heard 'body wave up' for a single one done as an accent, and Raqia just says 'reverse' and confines the movement to the pelvis ONLY.

10) Shimmy. This word seems universal. ..g.: There are debates about how to do it properly/safely, and whether a shoulder shimmy should involve the ribcage, but at least we all know what the word means, generally.

11) Jewel. There are variations, and it's been the subject of countless threads, but it always means one hip starting with a smooth movement (half-circle or half-figure 8) and finishing with a quick twisty releasing-the-energy movement (with or without a pelvic undulation, or dropping that hip into gravity). Please, if you want to discuss the Jewel, search for a zombie thread and wake it up, or start a new one. It is an invasive movement, always takes over any discussion it enters. ..l;,

Originally Posted by SatinWorship19

That is so odd. I thought maya was the unofficial universal term for a downward eight, not an upward one.

Down is definitely the most common definition, but just when you think everybody agrees on a name, someone comes along with an alternative take.

Originally Posted by Lauren_

3) Piston shimmy -- the one built from hip lifts. Sometimes called Turkish shimmy & other names, but again, I think most people who know the movement understand the Piston Shimmy name.

I've heard this called "Folkloric shimmy," too.

6) Camel - pelvic undulations (full body in some dance styles) while traveling to the side with footwork flat-ball-ball-ball. (there are all sorts of naming conventions for the variations on the footwork via the Salimpour school, but overall the Camel name seems to be one of the most universal naming conventions, internationally, in the dance. The movement, when limited to the pelvis Egyptian-style, feels very much like riding a camel)

8) Undulation -- wavelike movement that rolls downward through the abdominals. Differnet styles move the chest more, less, or not at all, but the movement finishes with the pelvis sliding backward and then releasing a tuck always.

9) The opposing movement to the above seems to be generally called a 'reverse undulation' with notable exceptions. I think Salimpour school says 'undulation down to up' I've heard 'body wave up' for a single one done as an accent, and Raqia just says 'reverse' and confines the movement to the pelvis ONLY.

I've heard "Camel" and "Undulation" used interchangeably, and I've heard one dancer call "Camel" what others consider a traveling reverse undulation. (You could argue that traveling with the reverse version actually does look a bit more like how a camel walks.) I've also heard a traveling reverse undulation called "Turkish Backwalk."

Please, if you want to discuss the Jewel, search for a zombie thread and wake it up, or start a new one. It is an invasive movement, always takes over any discussion it enters.

Ditto for 3/4 Shimmy! That's another one that can go on for pages and pages of debate.

Per the video in Post #6, that's what I'd call "step-lift."

Alas, nothing like the thrill of working with a native teacher, where all of the moves only have four names: "this one," "that one," "that other one we did earlier," and "shimmy"...

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Alas, nothing like the thrill of working with a native teacher, where all of the moves only have four names: "this one," "that one," "that other one we did earlier," and "shimmy"...

..l;,..l;,..l;,..l;,

Originally Posted by Zamira

The basic Egyptian step I learned was step on one foot, then place the other foot slightly out in front without really putting weight on it yet, bump that hip up or forward or some combination thereof, then step onto that foot you place forward, bring the other foot in front, and keep repeating that whole sequence as you travel across the floor.

And speaking of mayas, I've heard dancers accidentally refer to them as "Mayans" now. I can't wait until we see a new dancer posting "I've just starting taking classes, and can someone explain to me why a bellydance step is named after an ancient Mesoamerican people? Did Mayans bellydance too?" ..l;,

On some DVDs by dancer that I adore, it clearly sounds like she is saying Mayans. Wasn't sure if it was just my hearing tho?! ..l;,
Reminds me of the old game of "telegraph" or "telephone" where as kids we would be in hysterics at the end of the row as something like "Put out the trash" would morph into "Onions clear up a rash".

In Montreal, Canada: Figure 8's taught by "over there" dancers using French as 3rd language: Numereaux huits! (Number 8s).

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

... and someone (Morocco, I think) lobbies against the "8" part, since Arabic script also has its own symbol for the number eight.

No written description of movement is perfect, but I will defend the use of "8" on the basis that our numeral system is Arabic in origin, even though Eastern Arabic numerals are standard in modern Arabic. ..g.:

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I've heard one dancer call "Camel" what others consider a traveling reverse undulation.

There is definitely a subset of dancers who use the word "camel" this way. This is how my first teacher in Ontario used the term, and, when I told my ballroom dance teacher here in Connecticut that I do bellydance, he said "Hey, I can do a camel!" and busted out with a travelling reverse undulation.

Alas, nothing like the thrill of working with a native teacher, where all of the moves only have four names: "this one," "that one," "that other one we did earlier," and "shimmy"...

Other wise known as ... "and then I go - tock"

Delete. Oops.

Originally Posted by anala

Alas, nothing like the thrill of working with a native teacher, where all of the moves only have four names: "this one," "that one," "that other one we did earlier," and "shimmy"...

ROFL! Edna

But in my experience, the upward figure eight is the one with an identity crisis - I've heard every name from sways to snakes to fish.

I've just heard it called reverse maya.

In my book that came with the kit by Carolena Nericcio (which I find better than other kit books by far--I actually learned stuff from this), they describe a "taxeem" which to me looks like a maya by another name. From what I can tell, this book describes "Egyptian Basic" as the hip lift and step, though it also seems to involve specific arms that I can't figure out from the description.

The book from the "Art of Belly Dancing" kit describes a maya as "snake hips."

3) Piston shimmy -- the one built from hip lifts. Sometimes called Turkish shimmy & other names, but again, I think most people who know the movement understand the Piston Shimmy name.

I'm still trying to figure out this one. I can't get my muscles working right and then I end up feeling like I'm driving it from the hips. *sigh*

6) Camel - pelvic undulations (full body in some dance styles) while traveling to the side with footwork flat-ball-ball-ball. (there are all sorts of naming conventions for the variations on the footwork via the Salimpour school, but overall the Camel name seems to be one of the most universal naming conventions, internationally, in the dance. The movement, when limited to the pelvis Egyptian-style, feels very much like riding a camel)

Yes, I learned this one as full body, though there's no sideways movement--just a rocking back and forth with weight on the legs. The only way it's different from a regular full-body undulation is the weight change.

11) Jewel. There are variations, and it's been the subject of countless threads, but it always means one hip starting with a smooth movement (half-circle or half-figure 8) and finishing with a quick twisty releasing-the-energy movement (with or without a pelvic undulation, or dropping that hip into gravity). Please, if you want to discuss the Jewel, search for a zombie thread and wake it up, or start a new one. It is an invasive movement, always takes over any discussion it enters.

Sounds a bit like what I learned as a guppy, and that's all I'm willing to say about it. :)

Maybe we should submit this thread to the dictionary: the SOUL studio: Bellydance Dictionary

Originally Posted by Kat144

In my book that came with the kit by Carolena Nericcio (which I find better than other kit books by far--I actually learned stuff from this), they describe a "taxeem" which to me looks like a maya by another name.

Argh. Just say no to "taxeem." "Taqsim" is a musical improvisation. It's a word that already has a meaning to musicians, and since our art depends on respecting their art, they win and we don't get to redefine it. "Taqsim" is not a dance move. It's not even the only dance move that you can do to a musical taqsim. It's just propagated misunderstanding.

From what I can tell, this book describes "Egyptian Basic" as the hip lift and step, though it also seems to involve specific arms that I can't figure out from the description.

Alternating L arms? Dancers often do some variation of "one arm out, one arm up" to this move, but there's room for debate whether "up" means "high" or "behind the head," and whether the arm "out" should be on the accent side or the non-accent side.

From what I can tell, this book describes "Egyptian Basic" as the hip lift and step, though it also seems to involve specific arms that I can't figure out from the description.

Tribal Egyptian basic, which is what this step is, has the arms like this: http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload...8-72337cc96bee and the elbows kind of pull down with the lift.

THat's tribal which isn't the same as other belly dancing.

from what i was taught, maya is the name of the dancer jamila first saw do itr. to us, it is an inverted weight change, but i tell them about maya....the first clip posted is "step push " to us, but only done backwards, to the count of 4, with the up down pivot on the big toe .

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Argh. Just say no to "taxeem." "Taqsim" is a musical improvisation. It's a word that already has a meaning to musicians, and since our art depends on respecting their art, they win and we don't get to redefine it. "Taqsim" is not a dance move. It's not even the only dance move that you can do to a musical taqsim. It's just propagated misunderstanding.

Yes, this bugs me so much too.

[QUOTE=Tourbeau;731289]Argh. Just say no to "taxeem." "Taqsim" is a musical improvisation. It's a word that already has a meaning to musicians, and since our art depends on respecting their art, they win and we don't get to redefine it. "Taqsim" is not a dance move. It's not even the only dance move that you can do to a musical taqsim. It's just propagated misunderstanding. quote Tourbeau

This is something that popped up around the FCBD early era I think? Carolena Nericchio uses that term. The first time I heard it, from a student from another area that I was coaching, I was "Huh?" & gave a little mini lecture to in my pedagogue-ish way on how someone must have misintepreted something. I think today it may have in fact morphed into an acceptable dance term for a [fill in the blank] type of movement, even tho I personally disagree with the usage & think that it should have been nipped in the bud long ago.

Blame Jamila again :)

In her book she has a chapter called "Taqseem" and the first movement listed (as a movement you can do with taqseem) is this up-to-down vertical infinity/8. Supposedly she referred to that movement as the basic taqseem step, but I've only ever heard her call them just "Figure 8's" or "sways" which is what Suhaila calls that step on the Video Archive series.

Masha or Carolena one decided to call this step the Taqseem, and apparently it stuck.

Originally Posted by Kat144

Maybe we should submit this thread to the dictionary: the SOUL studio: Bellydance Dictionary

Much as I appreciate the effort behind trying to make something like this, we still have MAJOR issues with different names for different movements.

Jamila's Arabic is not the Camel described here, which is not the Camel that I learned. If we could get away from using non-descriptive names like "Maya" and "Camel" and instead describe the motion of the movement, or what muscles are activating, it would be MUCH easier (although a little more wordy.)

Originally Posted by aziyade

Much as I appreciate the effort behind trying to make something like this, we still have MAJOR issues with different names for different movements.

Jamila's Arabic is not the Camel described here, which is not the Camel that I learned. If we could get away from using non-descriptive names like "Maya" and "Camel" and instead describe the motion of the movement, or what muscles are activating, it would be MUCH easier (although a little more wordy.)

Even under the best of circumstances, there is still room for argument. One time, I had a very surreal discussion with another dancer about what constituted a "forward figure eight" (talking about the move that is roughly parallel to the floor). What I was used to thinking of as "forward" and "front to back" was what she thought of as "backward" and "back to front." In order to complete the move, you really are doing both motions, but it's a matter of perspective and emphasis.

I don't have anything against dancers who want to develop their own naming systems, as long as they make it clear it is their system and they don't assume people who aren't their students have to buy into it. From an academic standpoint, it's valid to want to categorize and catalog all these various ways to move, but it's disingenuous to act like doing so is somehow "more real." In the cultures where these dances originate, these system didn't exist before Western students came along and tried to apply them. And it bugs the life out of me when dancers take terminology from somewhere else and use it incorrectly. If you want to bring in ballet terms or musical terms, use them in the same context that a trained ballet dancer or musician would recognize. It doesn't make you look more sophisticated to misuse words that are already defined and established in a related field.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Even under the best of circumstances, there is still room for argument. One time, I had a very surreal discussion with another dancer about what constituted a "forward figure eight" (talking about the move that is roughly parallel to the floor). What I was used to thinking of as "forward" and "front to back" was what she thought of as "backward" and "back to front." In order to complete the move, you really are doing both motions, but it's a matter of perspective and emphasis.

My brain just melted, realizing what she was saying.

I think a lot of us use a stylization where the "back to front" part is visually more obvious on one hip than the other, either because of where the weight is placed, or because we focus our gaze or hands there.

But if you really think about it, and even if you don't consider the slide in the middle, she's totally right. <head explodes>

[quote=Tourbeau;732299In order to complete the move, you really are doing both motions, but it's a matter of perspective and emphasis

I think this is where a lot of confusion stems from... and the mind- melting front-to-back vs back-to-front ..l;,..l;,..l;,
is the perfect example!! Because the traveling path of a movement is not static! If you do the path one way, it's called a xxxxx, another way a xxxxxx, and if you add a lil' tuck, it's a xxxxxxx, and .... Or is that a "tock" I mean...

Yeah, I wondered about that, if they were trying to talk about taqsim. Who knows?

Zumarrad: Yep, that's it.

My teacher learned a derivative of the Salimpour style, and taught a "taqsim" movement as a kind of "bent figure-8" -- kind of alternating hip rolls (front-up-back)? -- instead of drawing a figure-8 around your feet you bend the loops and draw them on the walls....

My teacher taught the default figure 8 one way, and it's the opposite direction of everyone else's in this community. Making it worse, is using the word 'reverse' which just makes things backwards....then there's Morocco, who calls it an 'infinity'.