Thread: Dancing to Dabke music

I recently used the song Layl wo Rad by Wael Kfoury for a fun belly dance choreography. I love the song and was really pleased with the choreography until I was told that some people might find it offensive to use a song like this, which is often used for Dabke. I hadn't ever heard that before, and have seen other choreographies performed to this same song. Any thoughts?

Hi Maysa - from another Mayssa in Canada :P

I just tried to look it up on youtube, and what I heard doesn't sound like its debke to me. But not sure I was listening to the right song. Could you find a version to post here??

It's listed as "Classic Dabke of Lebanon" on this album - [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Night-Thunder-Classic-Dabke-Lebanon/dp/B003BPT38Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1282878618&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: Layl Wo Rad (Night & Thunder) (Classic Dabke of Lebanon): Wael Kfoury: MP3 Downloads[/ame].

Another spelling is "lail wa ra'ed reeh".

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQqlANSOBBE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQqlANSOBBE[/ame]

we use them...it gets all the ppl going ! 'specialy lebonse gigs!!

lol guess I was not listening to the right song.

I say why not use it, its a nice song!

Great name Mayssa!

Thanks for posting the song Kiyanna.

Just to put it all out there, here's a link to the choreography I created (I can't figure out how to just have it show up here):

Videos Posted by Dance for Joy!: Layl wo Rad by Wael Kfoury [HQ] | Facebook

I certainly don't want to offend anyone. Did I just totally miss the boat on this?

Anyways, please be gentle, I really do try hard to be knowledgable, especially when sharing with others. There is always more to learn! Always!

Thanks,
Maysa

Mayssa and Zamora,
Thanks for taking the time to reply and share your thoughts.
Phew! What a relief - I would feel absolutely horrible to offend anyone! It's SUCH a great song!

There isn't anything wrong with dancing to debke music, but there are certain cultural ramifications to it. Debke is to Lebanon what hockey is to Canada--you just don't mess with it too much before people start giving you dirty looks. If you do undertake a debke song for a non-debke performance (or a non-Lebanese cane performance, since debke is the Lebanese "baladi" music), I think you need to be inserting markers that show your audience that you understand the implications of using this song the way you are, and you understand where the singer/song fits into their culture. Occasionally, you have to be careful that the lyrics to the song you use aren't inappropriate. Debke is such a cultural rallying point for the Lebanese people that sometimes the songs can be quite political, and as a dancer, it's not a great idea to get involved in that unless you are really knowledgeable and you know completely what to expect with your audience. From what I can find of the lyrics, this one isn't that type of song, but there's always the possibility that it has picked up other cultural baggage along the way that outsiders don't readily see.

In all honesty, I don't love this choreography to this song. It's definitely a Lebanese pop song that Wael and his collaborators expected people to use for debke, so I want to see some Lebanese stylization there, and maybe even a little shout out with some actual debke steps. Instead I see a lot of Egyptian and Western influences. Actually, the only part I remember thinking, "Okay, Lebanese..." was the turn with one arm up (3:30-ish), but rather than go for the full stylization, the non-up arm was posed in a very balletic way in front of the chest, instead of down on the hip. The rest of it screams "Westernized Modern Egyptian" to me. Your choreography is a nice piece of composition by itself, and I think this style would have worked wonderfully with an Ehab Tawfiq or older Amro Diab song instead.

Here's the thing: If you know you are only going to be performing this piece for student dancers who largely don't know better (wouldn't know Wael Kfoury if he walked up and shook their hands, and can't tell the difference between Saidi and debke music on their own), I'm sure it would be very popular, BUT if there is any chance you are going to be dancing it in front of people of Lebanese descent, I personally would not do it. There is nothing about this routine that says, "I know who this singer is, and I know he's singing in Lebanese dialect, and I know this is an old standard of his, and if you were up here dancing, you would be doing debke to it." It is your artistic prerogative to dance however you like to whatever songs you fancy, but this may be what people are alluding to when they say "offensive." At some point, "benign misuse" starts blurring into "couldn't be bothered to get it right," and that can be offensive to people who already feel that you’re “borrowing” their culture.

[Sorry, long…]

If you do use this routine in front of a Lebanese crowd, will they still go nuts for the song? Probably. Will they say anything to you about using it this way? Probably not. Will they roll their eyes and snicker in Arabic behind your back? Wouldn't bet a lot of money against it.

How do you fix this? Go to YouTube and start watching videos of Wael, Fares Karam, and Assi al Hellani singing live. When they show the crowds dancing in their seats, it will give you an idea of how Lebanese audiences “feel” this style of music. (Don’t worry, there will always be a few girls in an aisle getting down in a very homestyle, belly-dancer-y way.) I’d also look at Howaida Hachem’s videos, since she tends to be less fusion-oriented than Amani. Think of Lebanese debke music in a parallel framework to Egyptian baladi, sha'abi, and Saidi--would you do a performance to a song in one of those styles without referencing that information in the choreography?

"benign misuse" ... what a great phrase.

Nour and Yasser Al Swery dabke:

2008 Moskow
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSVZZxtv1D4]YouTube - Nour & Yasser[/ame]

2010 Brazil
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RIrQsDD8_0&feature=related]YouTube - NOUR E YASSER - DABKE - RIO ORIENT FESTIVAL[/ame]

I tend to agree with Tourbeau on this one. In watching the video I felt a big disconnect to the music. I did like you little jumping step you threw in there. That matched the feel of the music. Depke is very earthy, you need to jump, shimmy and get down! It's not the time for graceful balletic performance.


Here's a clip of Hawaida Hachem. If you really like that song, I would redo the choreo and make it a cane dance.

Sorry about the awful buzzing.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvw6Orc-png]YouTube - Hawaida Hachem, Lebanese Dancer, Cane Dance, Green Bedlah[/ame]

Originally Posted by norma

I tend to agree with Tourbeau on this one. In watching the video I felt a big disconnect to the music. I did like you little jumping step you threw in there. That matched the feel of the music. Depke is very earthy, you need to jump, shimmy and get down! It's not the time for graceful balletic performance.

I'm completely in agreement with this. This song has kind of a rowdy, casual feel to it (in a good way, of course!), and the graceful and polished moves you're using are creating a distracting and uncomfortable dichotomy for me. Kind of like showing up in a ball gown to go to a bowling alley, if that makes sense.

I do compliment your lovely dancing, though. You have great technique and beautiful arms.

Norma, I was thinking cane too, the minute I heard the song. ..g.:

You are very lovely & graceful!

I think I agree somewhat with Laura2 in that your elegance & grace almost works against the song,which has a loose & rowdy feel to me. Pop music with a debke feel calls for some authentic or stylised debke moves in there somewhere..but I don't think it necessarily has to be 100% debke. And I agree ...I could see some fun cane moves as well!

I just wouldn't characterise dancing differently to debke-ish music as offensive...that's kind of strong and leads to such crippling self-doubt on the part of a dancer. Lesson learned, toss in some debke footwork next time :)

Thanks so much for the helpful feedback everyone! I really appreciate the time and care taken to respond. You've really broadened my understanding, and I look forward to watching the recommended videos and tweaking the choreography to better fit the background of the song. Thank you.

Here is another one that might help:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwwhZmqs0wI]YouTube - Ju Marconato e Nur Dança do Ventre em Salvador-Bahia[/ame]

It is a belly dance performance to dabke music, but the dancers use some footwork and folksy attitude to match the song and show us they understand the music they are using.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

Here is another one that might help:

YouTube - Ju Marconato e Nur Dança do Ventre em Salvador-Bahia

It is a belly dance performance to dabke music, but the dancers use some footwork and folksy attitude to match the song and show us they understand the music they are using.

Oh man, I love love love that clip!

Always, always, always get someone you trust to translate the lyrics before you use a debke. Some of the modern debke music is highly political (think Hizbollah).

Originally Posted by Maysa_Dancer

I recently used the song Layl wo Rad by Wael Kfoury for a fun belly dance choreography. I love the song and was really pleased with the choreography until I was told that some people might find it offensive to use a song like this, which is often used for Dabke. I hadn't ever heard that before, and have seen other choreographies performed to this same song. Any thoughts?

Having watched the clips, I would dispute that this is a dabke song. It sounds more like a classical song with that big string section and the rhythm in the live clip is masmoudi saghir. It is possible that this is an ancient dabke song that got a classical rework.

Originally Posted by Lina

Nour and Yasser Al Swery dabke:

2008 Moskow
YouTube - Nour & Yasser

2010 Brazil
YouTube - NOUR E YASSER - DABKE - RIO ORIENT FESTIVAL

The music used here is what I recognise as dabke.

Originally Posted by Aziza_UAE

Always, always, always get someone you trust to translate the lyrics before you use a debke. Some of the modern debke music is highly political (think Hizbollah).

That is why I tend to stick with the tried and true! And even then you still deal with political overtones such as Wein Ala Ramallah! Song is about Palestinians in Lebanon longing to back to Ramallah. It's actually probably more nostalgic then political which may explain why it's more acceptable to dance to especially in Detroit which has a large Lebanese and Palestinian population.

I love this version!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYhpCAQA1Og"]YouTube - Wein Ala Ramallah[/ame]

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

Here is another one that might help:

YouTube - Ju Marconato e Nur Dança do Ventre em Salvador-Bahia

It is a belly dance performance to dabke music, but the dancers use some footwork and folksy attitude to match the song and show us they understand the music they are using.

I love this too. Perfect blend of Dabke-esque steps and bellydance. I love the way they show the audience how to clap along, too.

Originally Posted by norma

That is why I tend to stick with the tried and true! And even then you still deal with political overtones such as Wein Ala Ramallah! Song is about Palestinians in Lebanon longing to back to Ramallah. It's actually probably more nostalgic then political which may explain why it's more acceptable to dance to especially in Detroit which has a large Lebanese and Palestinian population.

I love this version!

YouTube - Wein Ala Ramallah

There's a clip some where of Howaida Hachem dancing to this song. The song was popularized by Samira Toufiq and it's perfectly ok to dance to with a cane.

Oh here it is:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hUFWgodpbE&feature=related"]YouTube - Houwaida Hachem[/ame]

It's towards the end. She starts with Bi3a jamal ya ali (Ali buy the camel, hence she is riding one), ya dag dag, ya sa3d and then wain 3a ramallah. The songs are all in Bedouin dialect not Urban Palestinian dialect. All the songs are by Samira Toufiq except Ya Sa3d which is by Omar Abdallat.

Originally Posted by yameyameyame

Here is another one that might help:

YouTube - Ju Marconato e Nur Dança do Ventre em Salvador-Bahia

It is a belly dance performance to dabke music, but the dancers use some footwork and folksy attitude to match the song and show us they understand the music they are using.

This is not dabke music. It's clearly in Egyptian dialect. Not exactly sure what they are doing with the dabke steps in there...ummm what the hell? The word Ayouh is an Egyptian word anyway so....

Here's the original music video:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx8IMMljRSM"]YouTube - Rosy - Ayouh[/ame]

Originally Posted by Mark Balahadia

This is not dabke music. It's clearly in Egyptian dialect. Not exactly sure what they are doing with the dabke steps in there...ummm what the hell? The word Ayouh is an Egyptian word anyway so....

Here's the original music video:

YouTube - Rosy - Ayouh

Now you're just confusing me. The song sounds like dabke to me. Granted I don't know about the dialect, and my knowledge is limited, the music sounds Lebanese, not Egyptian.
Also, isn't Rosy Lebanese? The youtube video you posted itself even says that.

Rosy is Lebanese. I couldn't find any information about Achraf Alami and Hayssam Zayyad (the lyricist and composer, respectively) to see if they would yield any clues. It is rather an odd song. Without the lyrics, I'd have guessed it was debke instead of Saidi, and considering where she's from and the spelling of her lyricist's name, all signs would point to it being Lebanese, but... I don't know. Sometimes singers jump nationalities and sing in a different dialect than their own. Maybe it's just a cultural mash up.

Regardless (for the moment) of whether the debke steps were *appropriate* in that clip of dancing to Rosy's music, they sure were cute!

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Rosy is Lebanese. I couldn't find any information about Achraf Alami and Hayssam Zayyad (the lyricist and composer, respectively) to see if they would yield any clues. It is rather an odd song. Without the lyrics, I'd have guessed it was debke instead of Saidi, and considering where she's from and the spelling of her lyricist's name, all signs would point to it being Lebanese, but... I don't know. Sometimes singers jump nationalities and sing in a different dialect than their own. Maybe it's just a cultural mash up.

Lebanese singers sing in Egyptian dialect all the time! The reason being that Egypt is the most populated country in the Arab World and a huge market for Arabic music.

Nancy Ajram's albums are usually almost all in Egyptian dialect except for the occasional Lebanese or Gulf dialect song. That goes for Haifa Wehbe as well.

This song has nothing really identifing it as "dabke". There is no tabl balady and the rythmn is definitely saidi (although some modern dabke songs do use saidi, like Al Tanoura by Fares Karam). The song definitely sounds like it was produced in some studio in Lebanon though but it's defintiely Lebanese trying to do Egyptian.

The reason why I say it's Egyptian dialect is at one point she says "3ala meen, 3ala Fein" in the music which means "At who, at where?". Fein is the Egyptian way to say "where" and only Egyptians (and Sudanese) say it this way. In the Levant and in the Gulf they say "wain".

Originally Posted by Mark Balahadia

This song has nothing really identifing it as "dabke". There is no tabl balady and the rythmn is definitely saidi (although some modern dabke songs do use saidi, like Al Tanoura by Fares Karam). The song definitely sounds like it was produced in some studio in Lebanon though but it's defintiely Lebanese trying to do Egyptian.

I agree that it isn't a hardcore folkloric debke, but I wouldn't say it's a hardcore folkloric Saidi, either. It seems that a lot of Lebanese singers make records that are this sort of watered down style--debke enough that people would dance to it at a Lebanese party, but not so screamingly Lebanese that it won't sell well in Egypt.

I would dare say that just because it is in an Egyptian dialect and the rhythm is Saidi, it doesn't necessarily make it a Saidi song either.

Could just be a slow paced pop song using a fusion of a few things. I hear a rabab at the beginning, the main parts of the song where there is vocals I hear mainly ney and piano accordion accompaniment. Then in other small instrumental parts I hear a Lebanese mizhawit.