Thread: TO TUCK , OR NOT TO TUCK (ze pelvis, that is)...thoughts?

Hey ladies

I thought it would be a good refresher to take a 'poll' of sorts and hear differing options of the act of 'tucking' one's pelvis while belly dancing.

I've consulted other bio-mechanic/kineseology folk who stress, as i do, that a 'neutral pelvis' allows more range and is more 'natural' for the body.

Understanding that the medical model isn't reflective of everyones bodies, as we have all unique bodies...I wanted other's feedback on what they employ and or teach to their students.

( I've noticed that frequently, esp. within the tribal fusion techniques, dancers are instructed to tuck the pelvis/lower lumbar spine , to "save the back from strain". )

Ideas???

Here is an older thread to chew on. . .

http://www.bhuz.com/forum/belly-danc...old-skool.html

I know there are more around here. But it's 2:30 am LA time and I am tired.

{{{HUGS}}}

thank you SO MUCH- very informative...and yes- i too studied w/ shareen el safy and shakira fanning of ohio and they are AMAZING as everyone pointed out in the previous threads. aloha!

basically, it depends upon what you mean by "tuck".

I think that most people use it to mean "lengthen the spin and put the pelvis in neutral position".

Quite a few people have lazy, compressed posture that involves allowing the pelvis to tilt forward. For these people, the corrections to get them to improve the posture might include tilting the pelvis back just a little from their "normal" posture.

If one already has good alignment, one doesn't need to "tuck" more.

OK, being Old Skool, a bit of tuck (not a lot, more a matter of engaging the muscles and countering swayback) does seem to help prevent swayback and its assorted ills such as lower back strain.

More, some control of those muscles helps the precision of hip work, especially shimmies that tend to get outta control...g.:

In combination with a soft knee, low shoulder, high chest, and long neck this works to help create not only a trained body line but also makes it easier to transition between moves because your body is straight and your weight is under you. Plus, when you do knee bend moves it keeps your back straight.

In any case the last thing a dancer needs is a lazy lower back, whether slumped forward as ssnipes notes or swayed back.

Of course a slight tuck also helps lead into arch/contraction undulations and subtle back hits on the rhythm.

Tucked, & tucked HARD. Otherwise, my back hurts and my maias & gooshies have a twist to them. That's *my* body, and the way I was taught.

off topic, but

my maiden name was Gant, and everyone always said/wrote Grant.

Then I married a Sipes, and people now see it as Snipes.

I gave up on getting correct pronunciation of my first name when I was about 10. I say it in an introduction and people's ears just don't process the sound, because they say it back wrong 90% of the time, sometimes within seconds of hearing me say it. I myself don't even hear it anymore most of the time.

le sigh.

back to topic.

Originally Posted by ssipes

off topic, but

my maiden name was Gant, and everyone always said/wrote Grant.

Then I married a Sipes, and people now see it as Snipes.

I gave up on getting correct pronunciation of my first name when I was about 10. I say it in an introduction and people's ears just don't process the sound, because they say it back wrong 90% of the time, sometimes within seconds of hearing me say it. I myself don't even hear it anymore most of the time.

le sigh.

back to topic.

L'apologie..g.:

Originally Posted by zorba

Tucked, & tucked HARD. Otherwise, my back hurts and my maias & gooshies have a twist to them. That's *my* body, and the way I was taught.

I do think that protecting the back is vital.

Plus you make a good point about twists. It's one thing if you want a twist, something else if you don't!

I stress protecting the back in my class all the time and also try to cool down with cats and crabs and other yoga-type stretches. Belly dance works the lower back muscles bigtime so it's important to stretch them.

This is such a great topic and one that is important to revisit often!

In my experience having studied and explored many genres and sub-genres of bellydance, the instruction of “tucked pelvis” in basic dance posture is common in many styles. I think it really depends on who is teaching, as opposed to what style is being taught.

The problem with instructing students to ‘tuck under’ is that it can be interpreted in so many ways and with degrees of “tuck”. It can be really dangerous if someone is working from a natural, relaxed posture that is already neutral or tucked.

I emphasize neutral posture (and neutral pelvis) in my approach to teaching. I use the term “Tranquil Triangle”..... Tranquil referring to a sense of neutrality in the pelvis and Triangle referring to the three bony landmarks that create an imaginary triangular plane. The bottom point of the triangle is the pubic symphysis or front side of the pubic bone. The top two points are the anterior superior iliac spines (abbreviated: ASIS), or the points of the hip bones that protrude slightly on the front side of your body.

The triangular plane that these points make should be vertical and parallel to the mirror if you were standing in the studio… of course feel free to adjust slightly, depending on your own body. You may need to contract the abdominals and tilt the pelvis forward in relation to your everyday, relaxed posture or lengthen the abdominals and tilt the opposite direction to attain this position. Once in this position, try to center the weight of the pelvis evenly over your ankles.

I’ve often been incorrectly assessed as having a sway back due to developed muscles and ample flesh on my booty, and advised to dance in a bizarre posture that constricted my hip movements (and really put me in a lot of pain days after!). Be sure to measure pelvic placement by the bony landmarks of the Tranquil Triangle, not by the outline of flesh.

And of course, neutral pelvis works best with other elements of neutral posture :)

Instead of to "tuck," I tell students to relax their stomach muscles, and then engage the lower core muscles (some people automatically hold in their abs instead of adjusting the angle of the pelvis - the best way to make sure you're accessing and engaging the correct muscles is to start internally), and lengthen the lower back. Lengthen the lower back and straighten the pelvis. According to my massage therapist, many women's pelvises tilts forward which is why so many women have lower back pain.

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

L'apologie..g.:

Sorry, I'm a little hormonally imbalanced today. Which is to say, unduly irritable.

Another thing to keep in mind is that lordosis and pelvic tilt are not the same thing, nor are they correlated. This has been demonstrated statistically in several studies. Yet, the two somehow seem to be almost used interchangeably or at least seen as correlated conditions by dancers, instructors, personal trainers, etc.

One study indicated that it is not possible to tell from the external view (e.g. without palpating the relative positions of bones including the sacrum and tailbone which as a dance teacher, I'm not going to do) whether a person who appears swayback has lordosis, anterior pelvic tilt, both, or possibly neither.

THis page has a figure about 1/3rd of the way down that illustrates what I'm talking about. It wont let me hyperlink the immage. Lordosis: Assessment & Care

Although I have worked with one teacher who meant "tuck" when she said "tuck", I suspect for many it is a lazy (and incorrect) shorthand for neutral pelvis. The latter I believe is a good idea but tucking generally is not. First because it can take you past neutral and second people tend to engage their glutes when for dance you need to correct with the lower abs.

In the Attar roadshow I had people strip down to their underwear and I put yellow dots on the bony landmarks so we could see what was going on with the posture withour being distracted by padding. It was very interesting.

Originally Posted by ssipes

off topic, but

my maiden name was Gant, and everyone always said/wrote Grant.

Then I married a Sipes, and people now see it as Snipes.

I gave up on getting correct pronunciation of my first name when I was about 10. I say it in an introduction and people's ears just don't process the sound, because they say it back wrong 90% of the time, sometimes within seconds of hearing me say it. I myself don't even hear it anymore most of the time.

le sigh.

back to topic.

*snort* People always want to call me Schulman instead of Shuman. I have decided that as long as the check clears the bank...

{{{HUGS}}}

i have crappy posture, so i'm always being told to tuck by my instructors.

.

Originally Posted by kashmir

In the Attar roadshow I had people strip down to their underwear and I put yellow dots on the bony landmarks so we could see what was going on with the posture withour being distracted by padding. It was very interesting.

I'm trying to picture how that would go over at the studio I used to teach at with big windows on a busy street!!!

..l;,

I just come across bad posture, after bad posture, it might be a British disease!!!

In terms of what I teach, well over the years, I have taught to tuck quite tightly to now quite loosely, with an emphasis on feeling like you are holding your pee, and of course learning to laterally breath. This stuff takes an age to practice and for the beginners I keep it short and sweet or they would hyper ventilate and not progress to the good stuff later!

So much is going on with posture, it relates to breathing - most people are in fight and flight mode - and also the upper body as well as the lower body are almost stuck together for some people. Being able to isolate the two from eachother - so to speak - is a revelation in itself to many students, especially the body shy Brits.

Personally, I am always learning about my posture and I am always working on it. What I do know is that working on my posture has meant that I have alot of internal strength and dexterity, whereas, many of my peers have not.

I am working on writing at the moment, which means 9-5 at the computer has really knocked my shoulders out of wack. i have really noticed it and am working on them right now with some excellent yoga and pilates stretches and alignment technique.

The deep tuck, was and has been taught badly in many classes and I own up to using poor technique early on. There is an Alexander Technique that opens the back, and really makes the tail sit downwards, not in or upwards, and it is an ecstatic moment for anyone. The traversus abdominus is the best route and pilates paves the way, where yoga has left off.

Siouxsie

I do think it's important to guide students to elongate the lower back, avoid swayback, and aim for neutral pelvis. However, I don't teach them to "tuck" because that word can be misinterpreted.

When some students hear the word "tuck", they squeeze their glutes, which presses the pelvis forward and limits their ability to move properly. Other students think "tuck" means to clench very, very hard with the abs, and that too limits range of motion.

I'll tell them to make their tailbone very, very heavy. I might have them engage the abs to see how their pelvis comes upward in the front, but then I have them try to achieve that position again without using the abs - ie, but dropping the back.

Another posture adjustment that's just as important to protecting the back but not offered by very many belly dance teachers is that of rib cage forward. If your weight is almost entirely on your heels, your rib cage is too far back. If the side seams of your clothes slant toward the back at the armpits, your rib cage is too far back. Keeping your rib cage forward will help with your overall sense of balance, and protect your lower back.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Another posture adjustment that's just as important to protecting the back but not offered by very many belly dance teachers is that of rib cage forward. If your weight is almost entirely on your heels, your rib cage is too far back. If the side seams of your clothes slant toward the back at the armpits, your rib cage is too far back. Keeping your rib cage forward will help with your overall sense of balance, and protect your lower back.

Thank you Shira, for reminding me of this. This is yet another posture issue I have problems with - and forget from time-to-time as you're right: not many instructors know about it!

So many words get mis-read mis-interpreted in class.

You are right to mention this and yes "tuck" can be taken to the extreme. Especially when students, I include myself in this, can be so concerned with getting it right....and panic....when for instance they have not used their body in that way for such a long time.

I think it is wonderful for any person to find out how their body works, and in dance, how it works with grace and eventually with an almost effortlessness.

Ok it takes time!!!!

That saying "being out of the body" I could apply to at least 60% of my students. It feels like my role as teacher is to welcome them back in.

The deep core muscles, as anyone who works on it will tell you, takes time to find. You think you are doing it and then all of a sudden you are doing it. And yes it does take a level of not pushing/pulling/squeezing in earnest to get there, there is alot of that awful protestant work ethic that people apply to the enjoyment of using their bodies!!!

We are well trained not to feel.

I have found that people, once their tailbone is aligned lean back. This is the bit I mentioned before, with having students whose upper and lower bodies are stuck together. I also have to say that alot of women seem to round their shoulders - to hide their breasts - which in turn stiffens their upper body and they usually, if you study from what centre of their body they are using, walk with their pelvic area first. Very rarely do women walk with their chest, of course there are some, it is the older ones who are crumpled over with a hunch on their back or just bent that really worry me. I had one women who had not been upright for years and slowly in class she unravelled - A-mazing!!!

I use a method of igniting the tailbone in movement. It is something I took from Salsa training, and it is very effective.

I get my students to work in pairs (usual giggles ensue) and then get them to find eachother's tailbone - slightly too intimate for some - we do it gently and it is a great way to get rid of all those extrenuous social niceties (a British anxiety). They continue the exercise by walking in the space with another dancers hand on their lumber/tail. The heat caused by the contact and the raised consciousness of their lumbar and tail seems to relax the dancers stance/gait and brings with it a bright/light sense of energy and power in their bodies. Their partners release them and they continue moving with ease and acceleration. It in effect lowers their sense of gravity, and by doing so it also loosens their upper body and the tension held there.

Siouxsie ..g.:

Originally Posted by supercooper

I get my students to work in pairs (usual giggles ensue) and then get them to find eachother's tailbone - slightly too intimate for some - we do it gently and it is a great way to get rid of all those extrenuous social niceties (a British anxiety). They continue the exercise by walking in the space with another dancers hand on their lumber/tail. The heat caused by the contact and the raised consciousness of their lumbar and tail seems to relax the dancers stance/gait and brings with it a bright/light sense of energy and power in their bodies. Their partners release them and they continue moving with ease and acceleration. It in effect lowers their sense of gravity, and by doing so it also loosens their upper body and the tension held there.

Interesting. I think I'd be reluctant to do this for fear that the intimacy of such a touch might make some students too uncomfortable. And yet, I can totally see how it could be effective if people are willing to try it.

I do...but then, my posture tends to be swaybacked with my butt sticking out, so for me, tucking my pelvis probably means putting it in the position it OUGHT to be in (straight up and down rather than tilted back slightly). As ssipes said. So I guess that doesn't count? I don't "tuck" it anymore than I feel puts me into correct posture (and I am working on learning to force myself into correct posture ALL the time, not just when dancing). I guess now that you mention it, I always thought that's what it meant when I read that you should tuck your pelvis, was to make sure your posture was correct! I never thought of it as meaning you should unnaturally tilt your pelvis forward.

Interesting stuff.

I think there is alot to said about hands on work. Student trust me, and new ones who are a bit body shy, well I laugh with them and ask them can I show them something - usually about their posture - and they relax. It is almost like they are releaved that someone can help them, show them and touch is so healing -really.

Coming from a farm, being surrounded by animals and of course all the kids everyone sprogs touch is the most important everyday contact - it reassuring. It is a shame that health and safety and all the insurance/litigation claims that go around scare practitioners from it.

I used to go to yoga classes in which we would always do pair work to help eachother relase futher in to a stance or position.

I am a stickler for technique and part of that comes from my own injuries on the professional circuit. I used to work with a 12 piece West African outfit and the dancing was hardcore, for 2 hours, non stop and you had to get it right or you were in pain the next day - I have to mention it was deliriously ecstatic dancing - West African is very addictive.

Anyway in my MED classes I start to the touching and students know I have a keen eye and a firm/kind hands. Some classes we start with a shoulder massage with 30+ in the class, the energy of the class is just wonderful. But what it does is it makes dancers more aware of their bodies, we all do it, we all ignore bits and piece - you know the bits that you don't want to look at in the mirror!!!

Anything to get people to dance well, have a healthy, wealthy knowledge of what works and what it feels like. You can talk until you are blue in the face but all it takes is one touch, and they are always putting their hands on me to understanding how I do this or that.

Siouxsie

I'll admit I sometimes say "tuck" out of old habit, but I have mostly changed over the years to say pelvis in neutral. Even when tuck was the vocabulary of choice, the explanation that went with it in my classes was always to lower the angle of the pelvic tilt to a more straight/neutral location.

On touch: I will ask students if I can touch them to help correct their posture on occasion, but no more than that. For some people, touch is an intimate thing that they would not choose for their classes. I have some students who learn best by touch and I have an understanding with those ladies that they can touch me and I will touch them for corrections after asking permission each time.

Originally Posted by ssipes

basically, it depends upon what you mean by "tuck".

I think that most people use it to mean "lengthen the spin and put the pelvis in neutral position".

Quite a few people have lazy, compressed posture that involves allowing the pelvis to tilt forward. For these people, the corrections to get them to improve the posture might include tilting the pelvis back just a little from their "normal" posture.

If one already has good alignment, one doesn't need to "tuck" more.

this, although i've never met anyone who didn't need at least some correction in their posture, if nothing else bending the knees and engaging the abs, but most the time a full out "posture makeover" with learning neutral and lifted chest

Originally Posted by ssipes

Sorry, I'm a little hormonally imbalanced today. Which is to say, unduly irritable.

No problem! Not your fault I am periodically unable to read...l;,..l;,..l;,

Originally Posted by supercooper

Interesting stuff.

I think there is alot to said about hands on work. Student trust me, and new ones who are a bit body shy, well I laugh with them and ask them can I show them something - usually about their posture - and they relax. It is almost like they are releaved that someone can help them, show them and touch is so healing -really.

Coming from a farm, being surrounded by animals and of course all the kids everyone sprogs touch is the most important everyday contact - it reassuring. It is a shame that health and safety and all the insurance/litigation claims that go around scare practitioners from it.

I used to go to yoga classes in which we would always do pair work to help eachother relase futher in to a stance or position.

I am a stickler for technique and part of that comes from my own injuries on the professional circuit. I used to work with a 12 piece West African outfit and the dancing was hardcore, for 2 hours, non stop and you had to get it right or you were in pain the next day - I have to mention it was deliriously ecstatic dancing - West African is very addictive.

Anyway in my MED classes I start to the touching and students know I have a keen eye and a firm/kind hands. Some classes we start with a shoulder massage with 30+ in the class, the energy of the class is just wonderful. But what it does is it makes dancers more aware of their bodies, we all do it, we all ignore bits and piece - you know the bits that you don't want to look at in the mirror!!!

Anything to get people to dance well, have a healthy, wealthy knowledge of what works and what it feels like. You can talk until you are blue in the face but all it takes is one touch, and they are always putting their hands on me to understanding how I do this or that.

Siouxsie

I think touch is important too. I always ask first just in case but it does build closeness and trust besides helping illustrate what you're talking about - it's so much easier to show than to tell!

Does anyone mention the psoas in their work?

Do you relate flexor muscles, with pelvic placement?

What useful exercises do you give students to build their awareness and strength in their lumbar, thighs, back and lower, mid and upper abs?

Siouxsie

Depends. I would remind beginners to always tuck a bit in order to lengthen the back of their spines, but never as much as they become tired with the knees bent very much like I've seen the "oldschool" posture being explained on videos. The more you tuck, the more your quads need to work. Now when I do some moves I might tuck more to bring the pelvis more to the front, flat figure eights f.e. - but I'm trained and comfortable with it. Otherwise I wouldn't look like I was dancing but like I was working ..l;,