Thread: The little heard from 6/8...

Originally Posted by raksestela

i would love to see more 6/8 in accion :)

Orit Maftsir dancing to Daret el Ayam. 6/8 starts around 2:30

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHDUlP4CFsU]YouTube - Arabic bellydance- Orit maftsir[/ame]

Hi Doozer,

Are you looking for a specific area of music/dance? Just in Raks Sharqi? Or an overview with examples from other related styles, regions, or genres as well as others have mentioned (Persian, N. African, Flamenco, etc)? I can share many links and suggestions if you’ve got something particular in mind that you’d like to focus on!

If you haven’t done so already, dedicate yourself to some listening study…. Go through your whole music collection and make a playlist for your ipod or burn a CD of some 6/8 or 3/4 tracks. Get so comfortable with the rhythm that you can identify the downbeat, the accents, and the rolling 6 (or 3) count.

PS: Sedonia, that clip of Orit is phenomenal… thanks for sharing!

Originally Posted by ssipes

Orit Maftsir dancing to Daret el Ayam. 6/8 starts around 2:30

YouTube - Arabic bellydance- Orit maftsir

Orit is my fav.....g.:

Doozer do you have the CD Raks Ayoub? There is a song on that album with a lovely 6/8. I think it's cut #4 but I'll double check.

I really like the whole album, come to think of it. They have it on Amazon.

Originally Posted by Doozer

Oooooh, very cool....I love it! NOW those movements Anala and Elibelinde are making more sense. It is much easier to envision them now that I can listen to a song with a consistent 6/8 rhythm.

I actually don't know what kind of dancing goes with the song I linked. Abu Bakr Salim is a very highly regarded Yemeni singer, and it's possible there is a particular sub-style of Khaleeji dance that would be more appropriate for it. I wish I knew. From what I've read about Yemeni folk dancing, it's a far deeper subject than most would suspect, considering how low a profile it carries in the dance community. (Saba Net - Yemen news agency, Culture Page - Issue 15 - Yemen Times, Al-Dihaif, al-Razha, al-Sharh models of Yemeni folk dances)

Now I need to learn Arabic so I can navigate that website.

Being able to read a little Arabic is very helpful for finding music. The list on that page links to other songs by Abu Bakr Salim, and there is navigation to go to other singers' song catalogs.

I think Raks Sharqi is probably the style that I should start with as this is pretty new to me yet. More music recommendations are appreciated!

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

With the 6/8 you are actually just going tok tok tok/tok tok tok etc, 1-2-3-4-5-6 - emphasis on the 1 and the 4.

Exactly! So it almost turns into a bouncy 2/4 if you think about it. I don't know that interpreting it as a 2/4 is Persian styling, but I've definitely seen it in AmCab.

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

Orit is my fav.....g.:

Orit did a beautiful job with that 6/8!

Two steps I use are a side to side figure 8 where you are traveling with it. Very waltz like, slow, slow, quick quick slow...

Another step is a take a step with the left and freeze count 123, then R 123, then left 123, spin 123.

Originally Posted by norma

Orit did a beautiful job with that 6/8!

Two steps I use are a side to side figure 8 where you are traveling with it. Very waltz like, slow, slow, quick quick slow...

Another step is a take a step with the left and freeze count 123, then R 123, then left 123, spin 123.

Oh yeah - that makes sense - I can totally see it - !

Originally Posted by aziyade

Exactly! So it almost turns into a bouncy 2/4 if you think about it. I don't know that interpreting it as a 2/4 is Persian styling, but I've definitely seen it in AmCab.

I don't know much about Persian dance, love the music -

You know what though I think you've hit on something about the way music can feel, and that helps people interpret the beat.

Also, 6/8's come in all different kinds of music, so some of it will be lilting and lyrical, the steps Norma describes above would be perfect for those but others are really hard driving folkloric pieces and the interpretation would be more rhythmic for those, tight and crisp - some of the really ornate old music would be better counted perhaps as 12/16 because the line is so long and that would make you think, well maybe this should go like that (real descriptive, sorry!..l;,..l;,..l;,)

It would be easier if we could have a 6/8 convention wouldn't it:)

This is such a great thread. Thank you Doozer for starting this!

I had no idea 6/8's were as varied as other rhythms...I really appreciate the knowledge sharing going on here, thank you everyone. Keep 'em coming!

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

Oh yeah - that makes sense - I can totally see it - !

I used those steps in Leylet Hob. Unfortunately I don't have video.

The rhythm comes in around 4:14.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIXYxdDyZtM&feature=related]YouTube - Oum Kalsoum - Leylet Hobb (A love night) part 2 of 6[/ame]

My next question is about when the tempo seems to change to 12/16. Is it because the melody phrases get longer? Please forgive me if I used the wrong terminology, I'm not musically trained.

By the way this is my second attempt at this reply...my kitten Emily stepped on the keyboard and deleted the first one! She's such a stinker.

Originally Posted by Doozer

My next question is about when the tempo seems to change to 12/16. Is it because the melody phrases get longer? Please forgive me if I used the wrong terminology, I'm not musically trained.

By the way this is my second attempt at this reply...my kitten Emily stepped on the keyboard and deleted the first one! She's such a stinker.

Oh my ZoZo likes to walk on the keyboard - aren't they bad?..l;,

Anyway, I think that's one way to explain it. The gharnati style for example is extremely ornate, it doesn't make sense to cut it into short pieces (ie "measures") when describing the metre or time signature.

"Gharnati" means "Grenada" and it's referring back to al Andalus. This music is a branch of what you would call classical M.E. music.

On the other hand the waltz is a pure 3/4: ONE two three ONE two three - hum the Blue Danube Waltz for example.

However, I've been trying to learn more about both Western and Eastern musical theory and they do differ substantially in how people hear and define metre/time signature in music. Here's a paper on this - I thought to look under Indian classical music because that is really complex and its very complexity has some bearing on what we're discussing, also the fact that Eastern and Western perceptions about music, time, etc aren't necessarily the same:

Metre and Tal in North Indian Music - Music - Faculty of Arts - The Open University

Also, you guys probably have noticed that some ME and other Eastern music doesn't exactly count out to 4/4 or 8/8 or 7/8 for example but seems to be - say - 7 and a breath/8 - in the West we have pretty clearly defined metric ideas as the above paper points out but Eastern music is more ambiguous and complex rhythmically, so is our dance for that matter - does this make sense?

The music gives the dance room to breathe...to sigh.

Originally Posted by norma

I used those steps in Leylet Hob. Unfortunately I don't have video.

The rhythm comes in around 4:14.
YouTube - Oum Kalsoum - Leylet Hobb (A love night) part 2 of 6

This song KILLS ME. I wish I could see you!!!

So do a video!

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

This song KILLS ME. I wish I could see you!!!

So do a video!

Actually, somewhere there is a video out there. I taught it in a workshop a few years and it was taped, but I never got a copy.

I'm thinking I should have started this thread in musical traditions because to understand the music is to understand the dance (at least that's one of my theories).

When I took a workshop from Tempest it was explained that since eastern and western mathematical theory are quite different and drive their region's music, it makes sense that the tempos would be very different too. I really wish I could remember the name of the musician that was teaching that portion of the workshop: what he had to say made alot of sense. He is also very gifted and a pleasure to listen to whether he is playing music or teaching it's philosophy and history. If someone could please help me out here...I'd love to give credit where it's due.

Originally Posted by Doozer

When I took a workshop from Tempest it was explained that since eastern and western mathematical theory are quite different and drive their region's music, it makes sense that the tempos would be very different too. .

Can we discuss this more? I'm still going through Elibelinde's link, but can we maybe start a spin off? I'm very curious and confused about this subject.

Originally Posted by aziyade

Can we discuss this more? I'm still going through Elibelinde's link, but can we maybe start a spin off? I'm very curious and confused about this subject.

I think it's interesting too, also confusing; I agree with Doozer that to understand the music is to understand the dance, which is where I sort of get off with respect to some of the modern forms.

I think fusion is natural in any art form, ditto evolution, creation of personal style etc, in fact I think those are desirable because otherwise art just dies.

But oriental dance is joined at the hip, you should forgive the expression..l;, to certain musical forms that are not Western.

Example: one of my students has a possible gig at a club where there is an oud player, very skilled.

BUT - he brings with him a drummer? NO. A drum machine - aaaccckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk. That means a mechanical rhythm track which is absolute death, it just kills any dynamic in the music plus everything is the same rhythm.

Now that wouldn't be a problem at all in a lot of modern Western forms, in fact techno pop deliberately incorporates mechanical and even computerized rhythm tracks.

But for an oriental dancer?

We have somehow got to do something to help get real music back into our art, and also express our willingness to support creativity within our art without having to dance to Western pop musical forms.

Also, in regard to Middle Eastern music - it's confusing because the ME is a link, a real bridge between Europe, Africa and Asia and it reflects aspects of a very complex musical heritage because of that and includes elements from musical traditions on all three continents.

Originally Posted by norma

Actually, somewhere there is a video out there. I taught it in a workshop a few years and it was taped, but I never got a copy.

Rats! Well if you feel like making another tape - I'll tell you what, we filmed last night, so ok I'm not 25 anymore, my hair was even a worse wreck than usual and it's in the gym..l;, but I'll post one if you'll post one...cr.:

Meanwhile I have lost so much stuff or never got it including lots of film, I know I was filmed because I was in commercials and on the tube but between my existence, which I refer to as "scrabbling,"..l;, and other forms of not always being connected to the planet, plus camera malfunctions - oh fer pete's sake - my one and only ballet came out totally overexposed. The "bride" was all in white and she's a complete ghost and the rest of us came out similarly wierd.

Plus I think they made copies on used DVD's...l;,..l;,..l;,

AAAARRGGGHHHHHHHHH. Even a high end Mac can't read the darn thing.

I'm cursed...l;,..l;,..l;,

I hope you can get something posted!

Being very visual and hands on makes it tough to learn things by reading about it.

When I teach 6/8 I tell kids it's like a galloping horse and getting them to say "gall-op-ing gall-op-ing" really gets the two-groups-of-three thing into their heads before they try to start playing three-groups-of-two (which would be 3/4). I saw two performances on one of the IAMED dvds I've got lendsies of- I think it was "Bellydance!"- which were both Persian- Silk Road's "Raqs i-Peri" and Louchia's "Persian Pop"- first time I'd heard 6/8 used in BD. They'd probably be worth watching if you could track them down- I LOVE that dvd and I'll probably bag one for myself, worth it for Dondi's "Little Egypt" alone!

Well don't look me to get something posted soon. I finally got a camera with a video on it but you need someone to old it.

But, I've been wanting a copy of that workshop for a long time. Unfortunately, I had a falling out with the sponsor, but maybe the videographer will finagle me a copy. I was supposed to get one originally.

Originally Posted by norma

Well don't look me to get something posted soon. I finally got a camera with a video on it but you need someone to old it.

But, I've been wanting a copy of that workshop for a long time. Unfortunately, I had a falling out with the sponsor, but maybe the videographer will finagle me a copy. I was supposed to get one originally.

Bummer!