Thread: Down on the Doum?

So, how do you all feel about the rule of thumb that the hips should be going down on the doum and up on the tek? Suhail Kaspar, among others, is a proponent of this idea.

Is it a good general rule that is just a loose guideline and is often overridden, or is it a very strong rule that breaking will cause a performer to appear uninformed about Arabic dance?

Adding to the confusion, of course, is that when one hip is going down, the other hip is going up. Traveling steps and framing with the arms can certainly accentuate one hip over the other. Most dancers have a "lead" hip, I suppose.

So, do you use this rule in your dancing?

I'm kind of conflicted about it, I can see the logic of it in one way but in another way I don't like too many "rules" imposed on dancing.

What do you think? How do you dance? Are you down with the doum?

Heavy dum - a hit or a down for sure. It looks odd to me if you have a pronounced dum on say a waheda rhythm and what you see is an up-hip (mistakes do happen of course.)

Actually, for Egyptian dance its usually not down on the doum necessarily, its down on the downbeat. The Lebanese dancers also are usually down on the down beat, but they emphasize the up on the upbeat.

For unweighted hip movements like beledi-style hip drops, the Egyptian dancers generally go down on the downbeat...except when they don't of course.

Some exceptions are step-touch hip lifts. I have seen both Mona Said and Suhair Zaki lift up on the down beat with this movement, but Fifi usually drops on the down (see below).

For weight hip, movements, the rule doesn't really apply.

Here is a clip of Fifi. When the beat starts, she does some weighted hip snaps that go up on the down beat (the rule generally doesn't apply to weighted hip movements). Then she starts some step-touch (where you touch the ball of the foot in front of you, then step on that foot) and here she is obviously going down on the down beat. She prepares with a hip lift and drops on the downbeat.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=expjL32dg2M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=expjL32dg2M[/ame]

Never heard of any such rule! It stands to reason to me though, that anyone with any musical sense at all is going to do some sort of strong movement to a heavy doum.

I've trained with both Souhail and Gamal Gomaa and they both insist that it's important to use downward or outward movements on dums, and upward or inward movements on teks. However, a few well known dancers in the area (including ZZ) have pointed out that once you know the "rules" according to musicians, it's okay to break them...it's the dancer's choice, afterall. I think it makes sense, but you don't always have to do what's expected or you lose a little of the art!

So, do you use this rule in your dancing?

YES. All the time.

Except when I don't of course. :)

Not trying to be silly at what is a great question. I have been told this by several teachers over the years, as well, and I think it is an okay guideline. But none of my favorite dancers follow it to a T. That includes the old school golden agers (Naima Akef comes to mind) and Madame Fifi herself (up hits on doums in her workshop for sure).

More important to my mind (beyond beginner and intermediate) is to do what the music tells you in the moment AND to learn the rules...and then to alter them for your personality, mood, song choice, costume, spirit, moment, audience, whatever. IMO the intent of the movement can match the intensity of the doum and the down beat and make it work perfectly.

I was taught this rule also--again, for most things, but sometimes, no. Ha!

That Fifi clip is why I love belly dance. The looks on the audience members' faces---and she isn't dancing anything fancy, she just has such a presence. I adore Fifi.

Generally speaking, I'm doing something downwards and heavy on the doum - something lighter and tighter (though not necessarily "upwards") on the tek. I'm also al;ways stepping on the doum - step-touch, camels, whatever. Always stepping on the doum.

it's important to use downward or inward movements on dums, and upward or outward movements on teks.

Hmmmm... in the case of drum solos, if I was doing belly pops I'd do outwards on the doum and inwards on the tek. I think it makes more visual sense. Maybe I'm just envisioning what you're describing differently!

LOL you're right, I wrote it backwards! Gonna fix that post. But in the case of pops I was told it could go either way.

IMO, it's a very helpful guideline & learning mechanism. I found it really eye-opening & useful in trying to understand the Egyptian style, and for musical interpretation in general.

As a hard-and-fast rule, though, it's waay to restrictive, I think. The Egyptian dancers certainly don't treat it as one.

At the Fifi workshop, when Fifi was improvising to the same music over & over and we followed her, she sometimes took downward accents on strong dums, and other times took upward or outward hip thrusts on the *very same* dums.

I think this is one of those rules that people say but then don't do exactly. Even the Egyptian dancers. Watch any Egyptian dancer clip and find the inevitable section where they are doing beledi style hip drops (or what some call drop-kicks or drop-releases) where the ball of the unweighted foot is releasing from the floor on every other drop. Chances are he/she is dancing to music that is either in the saiidi rhythm, in which the dums go (leaving out the tekas for simplicity):

DUM rest and dum-DUM rest and

or the beladi rhythm in which the dums go:

DUM-dum rest and DUM rest and

I have never (or at least not often) seen an Egyptian dancer drop on both of the two dums that are in quick succession at the end of a saiid measure or the beginning of a beledi measure.

They are far, far, far more likely to be dropping steadily on each downbeat (e.g. on the one, two, three, four), which DOES NOT hit all the dums because some dums are on the upbeat or syncopated in between the upbeat and the downbeat.

If anyone can show me some clips that demonstrate a general pattern other than this, I'll happily eat my words.

I think this is one of those inaccurate descriptors like "shimmy with the knees" or "skeletal vs. muscular movement" where people really don't seem care that the words are inaccurate and confusing.

Sedonia
down on the downbeat, not the dum

I've heard of this rule from a friend who took a workshop with Souhail. We both agreed that we don't like to be restricted in our dance by following set guidelines. So no downs on the dums all the time for me, however, so it is easier for the audience to visualize and not confuse them. If I do dums on the up. I will keep them on the up for the entire song.

IMHO if your constantly switching, then it just looks like you don't know what your doing and not demonstrating any control and or defining your musicalilty.

Originally Posted by Lucinia

I've heard of this rule from a friend who took a workshop with Souhail. We both agreed that we don't like to be restricted in our dance by following set guidelines. So no downs on the dums all the time for me, however, so it is easier for the audience to visualize and not confuse them. If I do dums on the up. I will keep them on the up for the entire song.

IMHO if your constantly switching, then it just looks like you don't know what your doing and not demonstrating any control and or defining your musicalilty.

Doesn't that depend on the music itself? Certainly dancing the live music, drummers aren't hitting the dums with the same intensity throughout a piece (I am also a drummer and would find that very boring for me, the dancer and the audience). In beledi the first dum carries more weight (usually) than the second. Same for saidi. Teks can be sharp and high when played on the rim of the drum or can be deeper when played more on the drumhead or with different parts of the hand. So it would seem to me that control and musicality would be better served by interpreting the music rather than always doing it the same way within the piece.

Souzan

Originally Posted by ssipes

I have never (or at least not often) seen an Egyptian dancer drop on both of the two dums that are in quick succession at the <snip> beginning of a beledi measure.

Really? I see that all the time - Randa, Yasmina (though not too often in her case), Leila, Khaled all spring to mind. I'm thinking a reasonably subtle but most definitely double drop and then a heavy drop, all timed with the doums.

Originally Posted by wigglewhiz

Really? I see that all the time - Randa, Yasmina (though not too often in her case), Leila, Khaled all spring to mind. I'm thinking a reasonably subtle but most definitely double drop and then a heavy drop, all timed with the doums.

Yep. It's also a combination that I teach in a specific choreography for beginner's so that they can actually "hear" the DUM - - dum dum in saiidi. Makes a big difference in their ability to hear.

Well, I was taught to keep it simple stupid. I was told most americans who have no understanding of ME music can get easily lost with what your doing. All they see is a bunch of shaking my a$$. So when they are watching I want them to pick-up my accents in my hip articulation. One way of doing that is by keeping things simple and constant. Pick either ups or downs for the Doums and stay with it the entire song. Next song do ups. That way they can eventually see what my response is to the rythm and it demonstrates musicality.

I also drum and know what your talking about. I dance to basically only to live music 90 percent of the time.

You know I think these rules must be something that we're taught to give the general idea. Like when you first learn physics, and they say 'all light travels in straight lines' then a bit later they say 'actually it's not straight lines, it's waves', then a bit later they say 'it's not really waves, it discrete quanta'.

Dums FEEL like downs to me. But that doesn't mean it always works out that I put downs on them. Depends entirely on the overall structure of the song. But I would say, just naturally, if I am specifically and simply accenting a dum, I am doing it with a drop of some kind.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

You know I think these rules must be something that we're taught to give the general idea. Like when you first learn physics, and they say 'all light travels in straight lines' then a bit later they say 'actually it's not straight lines, it's waves', then a bit later they say 'it's not really waves, it discrete quanta'.

....actually, in the workshops I've taken the ones who say this say they are teaching you the secrets of the greats and that that is the only way to dance right. One common dancer cited is Shoo Shoo Amin, a dancer who does not have a lot of commercially available footage. Other dancers mentioned are Souheir Zaki and Mona Said. Careful observation of these dancers (including footage of Shoo Shoo) makes it pretty clear that this is not a rule. They used the "down on the doums and up and out on the teks and kas" less than 20% of the time.
BUT, it is a great tool to use at times.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

You know I think these rules must be something that we're taught to give the general idea. Like when you first learn physics, and they say 'all light travels in straight lines' then a bit later they say 'actually it's not straight lines, it's waves', then a bit later they say 'it's not really waves, it discrete quanta'.

Hi caroline -
I hate this method of teaching -to me it just means teaching inaccuracies from the beginning - I'd rather talk about what really is (as much as we can know) and THEN simplify it.
To me that creates a much more accurate base for what you are trying to learn. but that's just me.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

You know I think these rules must be something that we're taught to give the general idea. Like when you first learn physics, and they say 'all light travels in straight lines' then a bit later they say 'actually it's not straight lines, it's waves', then a bit later they say 'it's not really waves, it discrete quanta'.

In all my physics classes (from high school), my textbooks always told me to ignore the effects of friction when calculating the speed of something dropping.

I think that the guideline of 'down on the doums' is a very good one, but I don't think that it should be interpreted as hip drops on every doum. I think that it's important for a dancer to know/recognizes that there are different sounds that come from a tabla (doums, teks, slap, pops, rolls, and much more) and they should not use the same dance movement to interpret the sound (i.e. a hip drop for every doum or tek). When I first encountered this 'down on the doums' concept (from Suhail Kaspar in a workshop), I remember as being taught as you should do a big/downward/inner/internal movement on doums and smaller/outward movements on teks.

Ultimately, my interpretation is "You should dance to what you hear, and what you hear should be match what the musicians are playing." (I'm sure we have all seen dancers new to ME music dance to what they hear in their minds and it's not the same music that the audience is hearing). I think that part of Souhail's goal is to help dancers develop a Middle Eastern dance accent (and ultimately, if you dance with a ME dance accent for ME musicans, they will be able to play with you and support your performance better, because they will more easily see how you are interpreting the music).

My two cents.

Originally Posted by Bellydancingcaroline

You know I think these rules must be something that we're taught to give the general idea. Like when you first learn physics, and they say 'all light travels in straight lines' then a bit later they say 'actually it's not straight lines, it's waves', then a bit later they say 'it's not really waves, it discrete quanta'.

I really struggled teaching atomic theory for sixth form physics - I finally got to say actually atoms are not like little solar systems - but that is what you need to "know" to pass the exam

Originally Posted by Masouma

Ultimately, my interpretation is "You should dance to what you hear, and what you hear should be match what the musicians are playing."

Yes!..g.: