Thread: The Hop or Dramatic pause used in MED

I wondered if anyone can talk to me about the dramatic pause used in Egyptian dance.

Randa and some of the modern Cairo dancers use it alot, more so than previous generations. I wondered if someone can tell me more about it.

Siouxsie,r:

can you link some clips and give the time to illustrate what you are referring to?

traditions « Belly Dance UK

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Just wondering about this post..??

I feel that the dramatic pause has deeper roots in the dance than the emphatic hop. It seems very intuitive to insert a hold into your movement, just like you might have a rest in music, possibly to represent being overcome by the moment. IMHO, the hopping can work when you're doing a lighthearted, flirty piece, but I don't care much for it in serious routines. Then I think it looks too Western.

I think I should put a few examples up, will go in search of them.

Thanks Tourbeau, yes I had a Moroccan friend/dancer talk to me about it. She was talking about the emhasis and getting it right, and saying that a Middle Eastern audience can see the difference. I notice that it has come in more and more with the modern Cairo style and I wondered if we over did it.

Hi nikkiraqs yes that is one of my web pages.

Siouxsie

Hi Siouxsie, sorry if I'm missing something - I'm not being rude! But I thought you had done extensive research on the dance in Egypt so I was wondering why you posted the question!

Originally Posted by nikkiraqs

Hi Siouxsie, sorry if I'm missing something - I'm not being rude! But I thought you had done extensive research on the dance in Egypt so I was wondering why you posted the question!

I'm confused by the line of questioning, and my first thought was that you must have some ulterior motive for posting.

Anyone who's actually done research knows that research always generates more questions and makes one even more aware of what they don't know.

Are you implying she was lying about her research experience on that other page, or are you really assuming that someone who has spent time in Egypt researching the dance should know everything about Egyptian dance?

Well I'll stick my neck out here, with the caveat that obviously the only sample I can offer is what I have seen on film and/or people here who've been influenced by modern Egyptian dancers: I think there's more of a choppy feeling these days, caused either by hopping and/or pausing.

Obviously they aren't the same thing. The hopping can be from a legitimate artistic expression and/or a reflection of some folkloric dances. But I didn't used to see it as much and that goes double for some kicking moves I've been noticing lately, almost like Greek folk dancing steps. Not saying they're bad, just different - I can't for example imagine Samia Gamal doing some of these moves and she's sort of the gold standard for me - if I have a question about a move I ask, would Samia do this? and if the answer is an emphatic no - well then I think about it some more.

The posing/pausing, well that's also kind of a personal thing, a personal expression and it's possible it's more emphasized now.

It seems so to me. In general there is probably more a sense of emphasis on the percussive maybe? Of course one wonders if this isn't coming from a modern and/or Western influence. I could swear some ATS moves have traveled east and also some pole dancing stuff.

But it could just be a natural stylistic evolution, in the visual arts of course we've seen similar changes. Some is fashion and some represents a complete, really striking break with the past.

As to whether there is a regional distinction as to where/one would pause/hop - oh most certainly, I think that is possible. For example there are regional versions of certain songs so a person who "hears" it a certain way might phrase her dance differently than somebody who has learned it differently. Also the history of some songs, including some old ones, is quite layered so who is doing the dance would possibly influence its expression.

Beyond that, I think musical phrasing is unique to each dancer. How we hear, phrase and interpret music is one of the things that distinguishes our personal dance from somebody else's, regardless of where we are from. I do think it's probable that an Egyptian dancer would hear a song differently than I would for example but not necessarily because she's Egyptian - just because she and I are different artists if this makes sense, and we'll hear the music differently and also each have her own statement to make.

Ranya Renee has remarked that the music has changed and become a lot more percussive, and the dance has followed suit.

I do think that contemporary Cairo dance seems to combine a LOT of things - folklore (by which I mean formal stage dancing), beledi and shaabi elements, reinterpretations of golden age stylings. Bits and pieces of other dances. It's quite rich.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Ranya Renee has remarked that the music has changed and become a lot more percussive, and the dance has followed suit.

I do think that contemporary Cairo dance seems to combine a LOT of things - folklore (by which I mean formal stage dancing), beledi and shaabi elements, reinterpretations of golden age stylings. Bits and pieces of other dances. It's quite rich.

Yes, it's very rich and that in turns affects people elsewhere who watch, we start picking stuff up and it affects our own dance, sometimes not even consciously we start changing in response.

It makes sense that more percussive music or even musical arrangements of old pieces would result in a more percussive dance.

My question is this, how much of this might reflect, besides more modern Eastern music, Western styles such as "tribal" or hip-hop or even rock and roll?

I've heard some modern Eastern stuff that really sounded more like rock or other Western music than anything else.

?

Well of course some of it will. Egypt is not outside the globalised economy any more than anywhere else.

I'm not sure that contemporary Egyptian BD necessarily reflects tribal, not yet anyway, because, and some people forget this - ATS and other earlier variations of tribal are based on....
... now I want you to sit down people....

belly dance as it was done by US dancers in the 60s, which was learned by watching movies, learning movements from individual professional and non professional dancers, in and from the ME/Levant. So if Egyptian dance is influenced by tribal right now, it's more of a circular thing. What I think of as really iconic ATS moves are just very stylised normal belly dancing movements. There's going to be an element of chicken-egg.

It is true that tribal was taught at Ahlan wa Sahlan not so long ago, and that internationally travelling Egyptian and Turkish and Lebanese stars are seeing tribal in its various permutations. So it's not inconceivable that they might borrow a movement or two. I haven't yet seen an example though. I don't know if it will take off among non-pro dancers. Egyptian women, for argument's sake, don't have the need to dance with other women that seems to feed tribal classes because.... they already can, whenever they want to, at home. And I think over there they do tend to claim ownership of BD. Like, that is fun and cool and novel, let's try it, but it's not really belly dance you know, belly dance is like THIS and it is from HERE and we do it BEST. Similarly audiences will vote with their feet in Egypt and I think some of the tribal aesthetic is in direct contrast with the emotional, melting, dalla quality that seems to be liked and demanded of pro dancers over there. The movements, no matter how beautiful, would be seen as too precise or too aggressive, maybe, just like any other more American-styled dancer tends to find when she goes there to perform.

But of course there will be influence from hip hop, bellydance as presented in music videos, etc etc.

No I didn't have any ulterior motive...why would I?

I am not implying at all that Siouxsie was lying about her research....it's just that for someone who has obviously spent a lot of time researching and studying the dance first hand, she asks a lot of *beginner* type questions, and actually now after reading her other posts *I'm* the one wondering if she has an ulterior motive in posting them, as do other bhuzzers according to some other threads.

I'm not suggesting that anyone who has studied the dance as she has should know *everything* but surely they'd know basic concepts????

Originally Posted by ssipes

I'm confused by the line of questioning, and my first thought was that you must have some ulterior motive for posting.

Anyone who's actually done research knows that research always generates more questions and makes one even more aware of what they don't know.

Are you implying she was lying about her research experience on that other page, or are you really assuming that someone who has spent time in Egypt researching the dance should know everything about Egyptian dance?

Originally Posted by nikkiraqs

No I didn't have any ulterior motive...why would I?

I am not implying at all that Siouxsie was lying about her research....it's just that for someone who has obviously spent a lot of time researching and studying the dance first hand, she asks a lot of *beginner* type questions, and actually now after reading her other posts *I'm* the one wondering if she has an ulterior motive in posting them, as do other bhuzzers according to some other threads.

I'm not suggesting that anyone who has studied the dance as she has should know *everything* but surely they'd know basic concepts????

Surely anyone interested in researh is also interested in getting the viewpoints and opinions and experiences of others.
Do you mean that when someone climbs into an ivory tower, they might never,at times make their way back down again?
There is little point doing research into a dance that is a dance of people and always being inaccessable to the majorty of dancer/students.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Ranya Renee has remarked that the music has changed and become a lot more percussive, and the dance has followed suit.

I do think that contemporary Cairo dance seems to combine a LOT of things - folklore (by which I mean formal stage dancing), beledi and shaabi elements, reinterpretations of golden age stylings. Bits and pieces of other dances. It's quite rich.

Ranya is right.

I have noticed that classical pieces are often heavily overlaid with percussion and dancers particularly like Randa follow that as opposed to the melody.

Contemporary Cairo for me is more infulenced by the 'ballet' aspects of folkloric and less about beledi and shaabi. There is alot of travelling and upper body movement and swing.

There are of course core elements which never leave the dance as you suggest, but there is a very marked difference in these styles. I split the contempoary scene into two camps, Folkloric and Sha'abi based.

Camelia, Dandesh and Aziza fall into the Sha'abi camp with Randa someplace in between most of the others on the Cairo scene have more 'flight and lift' in their dance and use staight leg technique which shifts the dynamic and feel of the dance. The use of the stage and the travelling is quite different as is the use of the hips.

Here are a few illustrated examples...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmlDvRGkxIs]YouTube - yasmina of cairo entrance[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWZn66xGN1g]YouTube - Lorna of Cairo - Edinburgh, March 2010[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wXEmnnTNAs]YouTube - Dandesh performing her El Raksat Routine[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkamfP_oeys]YouTube - Camelia of Cairo Belly Dancing on Grand Hyatt Boat in Cairo, Egypt[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhoC-C2LxqY]YouTube - Aziza[/ame]

Originally Posted by nikkiraqs

No I didn't have any ulterior motive...why would I?

I am not implying at all that Siouxsie was lying about her research....it's just that for someone who has obviously spent a lot of time researching and studying the dance first hand, she asks a lot of *beginner* type questions, and actually now after reading her other posts *I'm* the one wondering if she has an ulterior motive in posting them, as do other bhuzzers according to some other threads.

I'm not suggesting that anyone who has studied the dance as she has should know *everything* but surely they'd know basic concepts????

But this question isn't basic or beginner.

Surely anyone interested in research is also interested in getting the viewpoints and opinions and experiences of others.

Yes, but it starts to become a bit difficult when you are producing academic material for publication, because for every bit of research you do these days you need ethics approval, and one of the things you need to show to *get* ethics approval is that your subjects are fully informed. Or, if you're using deception, why and how you plan to inform them later. You know this! I'm explaining for those who don't.

Siouxsie will most certainly have gone through this process for other research; when you're known to be undertaking academic research into a field I think you have to be particularly *careful* about what you do on message boards etc, and that was the reason I posted elsewhere about wanting assurance that such research was not being done.

It's not that I thought it *was* being done. Only that it looked and felt that way. The lines can blur a lot.

I know when I was doing my MA I worked out a lot of things via Bhuz posts (I got my head around orientalism that way). But if I were pursuing it further I'd pull back from doing so much thinking aloud in public spaces like this. Too many chances of inadvertent plagiarism on either side, too fuzzy. Message boards are fantastic places to get the temperature of things, but you've got to think and think again when what you are gleaning might end up published.

Thank you Ssipes.

And Caroline those clips were great, thank you for getting them on here. That one at the end, the Aziza example, is a great example she "hops" or raises herself off her heels and back down again. the differences according to dancer comes through and the attack on the "hop" differs too from performer to performer.

I was wandering about it appearance on the dance scene, how come it is more accented than before. One dancer illustrated to me the differences between the golden era use of emphasis and accent with the music and the complete reversal now used in modern Cairo technique.

I can see your differentiation here, Caroline, the Sha'abi and the Folklore based styling. It makes sense. And then the ballet overtones found in the Folklore lexicon, I have also thought were there.

It is interesting that the Egyptian examples you have posted are Sha'abi influenced and Yasmina and Lorna, UK based dancers originally, folklore based. Does that have something to do with Raqia and the folklore training she provides? Or is it a UK attitude and method of making dance?

Not wanting to generalise of course, but there is a different flavour there, and does it relate to the cultural codes that you might not ever see or get as a non-Egyptian?

The upper body work, use of space and swing is an interesting way to describe it. I asked Lorna about her use of swing, she was not sure how to describe it. I described her doing this lunge, and then lunge and then lunge stop lunge - there was not lock - but there was a moment. Abit like the moment I guess I am trying the chase with the "hop" (said with an Egyptian accent) which to my mind is a way of describing a held, swung and maybe swinging, moment in a transition and then change.

Siouxsie

Originally Posted by ssipes

But this question isn't basic or beginner.

Glad you said that..I was beginning to worry that I should know the answers to this....

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Yes, but it starts to become a bit difficult when you are producing academic material for publication, because for every bit of research you do these days you need ethics approval, and one of the things you need to show to *get* ethics approval is that your subjects are fully informed. Or, if you're using deception, why and how you plan to inform them later. You know this! I'm explaining for those who don't.

Siouxsie will most certainly have gone through this process for other research; when you're known to be undertaking academic research into a field I think you have to be particularly *careful* about what you do on message boards etc, and that was the reason I posted elsewhere about wanting assurance that such research was not being done.

It's not that I thought it *was* being done. Only that it looked and felt that way. The lines can blur a lot.

I know when I was doing my MA I worked out a lot of things via Bhuz posts (I got my head around orientalism that way). But if I were pursuing it further I'd pull back from doing so much thinking aloud in public spaces like this. Too many chances of inadvertent plagiarism on either side, too fuzzy. Message boards are fantastic places to get the temperature of things, but you've got to think and think again when what you are gleaning might end up published.

I haven't done a lot of further research since university but I do realise that,Zum. However being immersed in academic research, surely doesn't mean that there aren't times when you want to start "on the ground" or are not interested in what goes on from the persepctive of others.
I fully realise my own limitations in understanding the more academic discussions on these forum, knowing I have little useful to offer but I still read and obsorb from my own rather mundane perspective.
As an editor, I 'm also aware that readers don't always want to get entangled in deeper issues but still want to be informed about those that will forward their own development in this dance. We don't all start at the same point and we can't all leap into the compay of those who have had the privaledge or made the effort,made the sacrifices to push their knowledge and understanding.

Thanks Liz and yes I have done some research, specific research in the UK Belly Dance scene - to be precise - which of course does not cover everything.

I am therefore always learning and very thankful that I have kept an open mind, I meet academics all the time and many have closed the "shop" many years ago.

Elibelinde, thanks for your post and yes "choppy feeling" is a good way of describing it. LOL

The greek steps is interesting.......

In terms of personal taste, percussive emphasis and free range on the creativity thing, I think it is in there. Though, I would highlight there is might be an over emphasis on doing as you please, it means something, and comes across to an audience in a meaning making way.

Your post:

Beyond that, I think musical phrasing is unique to each dancer. How we hear, phrase and interpret music is one of the things that distinguishes our personal dance from somebody else's, regardless of where we are from.

I do think it's probable that an Egyptian dancer would hear a song differently than I would for example but not necessarily because she's Egyptian - just because she and I are different artists if this makes sense, and we'll hear the music differently and also each have her own statement to make.

I am not so sure it is as straight forwardly one artist and another, as you wrote in the above.

Later on you describe the musical influences and styling in Egyptian music and the corresponding effect it has on the dance:

My question is this, how much of this might reflect, besides more modern Eastern music, Western styles such as "tribal" or hip-hop or even rock and roll?

I've heard some modern Eastern stuff that really sounded more like rock or other Western music than anything else?

I think there is a good point here. The way that we are talking abou the music, the changes in the music and the knock on effects on the dance styling, syntax and contextual framing of the dance.

Have you got examples?

And would this "choppy feeling" in the dance be a response to a "choppy" or, lets be more erudite here, the percussive elements of the dance? Is it influenced for example by the demand for tricks and semi-acrobatic moves commonly found in AmCab? Like you are saying there are crosses, crossing over from one place of dance to another, through music.

It is a point of border-crossing.

Siouxsie

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

Well I'll stick my neck out here, with the caveat that obviously the only sample I can offer is what I have seen on film and/or people here who've been influenced by modern Egyptian dancers: I think there's more of a choppy feeling these days, caused either by hopping and/or pausing.

To me, it is not just "choppy." There is a hard, aggressive quality that was not found in the older dancers. The energy is different. Sometimes when I watch clips of these dancers, I feel like I am being assaulted more than entertained, but that is my perception. I know others find them exciting and highly entertaining to watch, and yearn to dance just like them. Then again, I think they were saying the same things about Dina twenty years ago, and she looks soft and mellow compared to some of the dancers in this group.

Not saying they're bad, just different - I can't for example imagine Samia Gamal doing some of these moves and she's sort of the gold standard for me - if I have a question about a move I ask, would Samia do this? and if the answer is an emphatic no - well then I think about it some more.

Sometimes, I can admire these modern-style dancers as artists on an intellectual level, but it stops there. In that sense, I do see them sharing a common ground with tribal. I am capable of appreciating what they are doing, and I have faith that when/if an opportunity to study with them presents itself, I could learn a few new, useful insights, but their dancing does not touch me at a level where I have any desire to dance like that myself. It's just not how I feel the music. When I try to copy them, I feel like I am flailing around and fighting the song. In other words, even if I could dance that well, I don't think I'd make the same stylistic choices as they do.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

To me, it is not just "choppy." There is a hard, aggressive quality that was not found in the older dancers. The energy is different. Sometimes when I watch clips of these dancers, I feel like I am being assaulted more than entertained, but that is my perception. I know others find them exciting and highly entertaining to watch, and yearn to dance just like them. Then again, I think they were saying the same things about Dina twenty years ago, and she looks soft and mellow compared to some of the dancers in this group.



Sometimes, I can admire these modern-style dancers as artists on an intellectual level, but it stops there. In that sense, I do see them sharing a common ground with tribal. I am capable of appreciating what they are doing, and I have faith that when/if an opportunity to study with them presents itself, I could learn a few new, useful insights, but their dancing does not touch me at a level where I have any desire to dance like that myself. It's just not how I feel the music. When I try to copy them, I feel like I am flailing around and fighting the song. In other words, even if I could dance that well, I don't think I'd make the same stylistic choices as they do.

Siouxsie, I have to agree with all of the above.

As for examples, I have quite a few selections - I have a performance tonight and class tomorrow which hopefully I will survive..l;, so let me compile a list and get back to you asap.

Briefly though the "Belly Dance Superstars" use some of this, it is exciting and fun but it marks a breaking point with the past, not just an evolution imo.

PS, in regard to the "breaking point," allow me to theorize - I think this is not uncommon with popular art, you see a lot of changes in the short term. Because we are looking from a close, not a long range perspective we also see a lot of trends that will turn out to be a flash in the pan, a temporary fashion.

Over the long term, what survives tends to be what we will term "classical". I have to think about what/why that is so I'm just throwing this out there for now, as I say I'm hurried at the moment.

But I think it's a winnowing process. You have a folkloric piece that has been around for a lot of years why? - say the mizmar music that sounds so ancient - or ditto a courtly, intricate piece from al-Andalus - they are different stylistically of course but each will somehow speak to us across time and remain fresh even today.

I think the things that last have certain bones, a certain way of speaking to us, whereas the fads will fade away.

Personally in terms of the type of belly dance so eloquently described by Tourbeau, I have my own opinions on this matter...l;,..l;,..l;,

OK a couple other points - fascinating topic!

Siouxsie says in response to my comment which is in italics:

I do think it's probable that an Egyptian dancer would hear a song differently than I would for example but not necessarily because she's Egyptian - just because she and I are different artists if this makes sense, and we'll hear the music differently and also each have her own statement to make.

I am not so sure it is as straight forwardly one artist and another, as you wrote in the above.

I concur. Culture is very significant. An Egyptian person will feel/hear/interpret differently than I will. When I began my career I vowed this: I am not an Egyptian person and will not try to imitate one - I will try to bring my own persona to the dance and do that.

I do relate more to music whose history I connect with because I really, deeply understand the stories behind it.

But there is also an aesthetic connection I personally feel to certain kinds of music - example I fit better that way with Lebanese music probably, that written for Nadia Gamal, by Aboud Abdel Al, so forth. It has a kind of energy that suits me personally. This is an artistic, rather than a cultural choice.

And on that level we are all *just* artists and how we dance will reflect our reactions to the music rather than being so heavily shaded by culture.

As to a musical border-crossing - yes Souixsie! Right on, I think that's part of this. BTW I think it's happened many times in the past, we are seeing it in real time and in an abrupt and striking manner right now though, much as Cubism, Expressionism, Impressionism, marked an extreme change in Western painting. Some of this absolutely reflected a visual "border crossing," example Picasso's use of African art which thus became a primary influence on modern art.

[quote]

Originally Posted by supercooper

It is interesting that the Egyptian examples you have posted are Sha'abi influenced and Yasmina and Lorna, UK based dancers originally, folklore based. Does that have something to do with Raqia and the folklore training she provides? Or is it a UK attitude and method of making dance?

I think it is a combination of different starting point and the training which is required of dancers on the pro circuit in Cairo.

I think the starting piont is perhaps the accent/flavour that never truly leaves you. I see that in Camelia and Dandesh particularly.

Not wanting to generalise of course, but there is a different flavour there, and does it relate to the cultural codes that you might not ever see or get as a non-Egyptian?

mm.. I dont know! is the honest answer, but our own culture never truly leaves us completely. Yasmina calls herself the English Rose of Cairo and it is a perfect way to acknowledge that I think.

In regards to hops and pauses: Every time I've seen this performed either live or on video I always thought that it was just an individual dancer expressing themselves in the moment of the music. I, for one, am a hopper (an no, I'm not Egyptian) and I do this because the music just compels me to. I love to finish combos with a little jump that leads into a shimmy. There's something very grounding in it. I don't know why I do it, it just feels good. Is it possible that this is a trend going on in Egypt now? Like dancer A saw famous headliner dancer B do it and mimicked it in some of her shows, then dancer C saw dancer A, and before you know it the whole alphabet is suddenly doing hops and/or pauses.

In regards to research: If we can't ask our peers? Who the hell can we ask? Isn't that one of the benefits of a forum?

I haven't gotten a chance to watch the exemplifying clips because my home computer is woefully archaic and I can't stream videos usually.

However, I think I have some idea of what you all are talking about.

I think the musical evolution has played some role. Golden age dance music generally had only riqq as the percussion. New music has an extremely strong role for the tabla and in fact generally a whole percussion section. It has *much* stronger pops and accents, and I think that dancers respond to this (both Egyptian and American) is completely expected. Pops and locks are not always pulled out of the blue sky.

However, much of the changes in the dance are due to a few key influential people. Last weekend we learned from Sahra some things about the history of the dance from Golden Era through to present. Dina was a huge influence on what Sahra called the post modern era (e.g. now). Dina was influenced by Reda and also carved out her own personal unique style, that of course many have imitated or been inspired by.

If by hops you are talking about heel bounces as accents, Sahra says that comes from Saiidi folklore, brought in by the modern dancers.

Alot of the "hangs", swings, upper weight changes, pauses, etc. I think would be traceable directly back to Dina.

[quote]

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

To me, it is not just "choppy." There is a hard, aggressive quality that was not found in the older dancers. The energy is different. Sometimes when I watch clips of these dancers, I feel like I am being assaulted more than entertained, but that is my perception. I know others find them exciting and highly entertaining to watch, and yearn to dance just like them. Then again, I think they were saying the same things about Dina twenty years ago, and she looks soft and mellow compared to some of the dancers in this group.

When I watched Randa at Congress I described it as 'a visual assault'. It was really full on for my tastes and placed Randa further down the league tables for me. Yasmina who danced on the same night was stunning and the best I have ever seen her.

I assumed Randa was just working extra hard for Fifi Abdou. I have noticed that Randa dances differently to CD and is generally more dramatic. I would say she has changed her style in the last 18 months and many people are following her.

She is still a powerhouse and has my respect and she is lovely as a person to meet, she really becomes something else on stage. Dina appears the same both on and off as does Fifi.


I dont think it is a general trend, as many dancers who work in Cairo dont actually do this full on drama style dancing. Also, the ones who do look a little too much like Randa copies.

Do you think Camelia and Aziza have this style? who did you have in mind, could you be more specific?

When I try to copy them, I feel like I am flailing around and fighting the song.

what a line! ..l;,

I know exactly what you mean, but I do like fiesty dancers with a bit of fire in their belly who are a bit edgy.

Originally Posted by caroline_afifi

I dont think it is a general trend, as many dancers who work in Cairo dont actually do this full on drama style dancing. Also, the ones who do look a little too much like Randa copies.

I wouldn't say that even Randa herself is always this way. In general, I think her performances are more this way than I like, but it's not as if she's never had a moment where I enjoyed her dancing, and often I can pick out a just few isolated moves that I didn't like in a performance.

Do you think Camelia and Aziza have this style? who did you have in mind, could you be more specific?

I was thinking mostly of Randa and dancers who emulate her. I also think there are schools of style around the world that buy very heavily into too much BLAM! factor for my taste--Russians and South Americans, in particular, but I'm not trying to imply that there are no dancers from those places that I like. I just find that, as a generalization, I don't tend to be on the same page with them stylistically.

In answer to your specific question, I'd say I see this in Camelia more than Aziza. For example, in this video I think she went right past "Fifi's a ballsy dame" into "You want tahtib? Bring it. I could take on Tito, Mohamed Shahin, and Yousry Sharif all at the same time!" I get that she's going for a very down-to-earth style, but all of the flirty, feminine overtones associated with traditional women's assaya have been replaced with very masculine strength--more than what a lot of men put into their dancing.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPK9xZirdRQ]YouTube - Camelia of Cairo - Baladi[/ame]

I know exactly what you mean, but I do like fiesty dancers with a bit of fire in their belly who are a bit edgy.

I suppose the question boils down to how you like the edginess to manifest. To me, Randa can come across as too brutish and blunt. Dancers like Fifi and Mona have more of a subcurrent. Their dancing has a certain "You really don't want to underestimate me" quality. Even dancers like Souheir Zaki and Samia Gamal have a little spark of something under all that butter-wouldn't-melt-in-my-mouth sweetness that makes you think they're more clever than they're letting on. I don't know if this buys into the stereotype of the wily Arab temptress, or if the stereotype exists because the traditional way that women derived power in those societies was by exploiting subtle, emotional dynamics. LOL--I don't want this to turn into "Belly Dance in Patriarchy, Round II."

I also like a bit of humor in the dance--not so much the "boobs on a string" gags, but the more subtle "I bet you didn't guess I'd think of this" sort of ingenious choreographic choices. Again, not enough that the routine turns into a farce, but enough that the audience realizes that there's something going on behind the face.

[quote]

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

I wouldn't say that even Randa herself is always this way. In general, I think her performances are more this way than I like, but it's not as if she's never had a moment where I enjoyed her dancing, and often I can pick out a just few isolated moves that I didn't like in a performance.

Yes, it has become a trend with Randa but not all of the time.

I was thinking mostly of Randa and dancers who emulate her. I also think there are schools of style around the world that buy very heavily into too much BLAM!

I am not keen on terribly 'angst ridden' faces either and Randa was never as bad a Dina for this.

In answer to your specific question, I'd say I see this in Camelia more than Aziza.

Yes but for me, Camelia keeps a very feminine edge and doesnt dive about the stage too much. She can be extremely risque at time though..

For example, in this video I think she went right past "Fifi's a ballsy dame" into "You want tahtib? Bring it. I could take on Tito, Mohamed Shahin, and Yousry Sharif all at the same time!" I get that she's going for a very down-to-earth style, but all of the flirty, feminine overtones associated with traditional women's assaya have been replaced with very masculine strength--more than what a lot of men put into their dancing.

yes, the womens cane is all but gone these days. I dont mind though because i like juxtaposition of this.

I suppose the question boils down to how you like the edginess to manifest.

For me, it is about now playing to stereotypes too much or turning into a caricature.

To me, Randa can come across as too brutish and blunt.

She can sometimes and this is what i was reffering to earlier. It happen more with her CD's than her live performances in Cairo.

Dancers like Fifi and Mona have more of a subcurrent. Their dancing has a certain "You really don't want to underestimate me" quality.

Fifi especially.