Thread: Is it Belly Dance, or not Belly Dance?

Or...... Was the Goldern Era so Golden?

Another poster on another thread remarked that much of the dancing seen on old films is not what was considered belly dance at the time. Post other old clips and tell us.....belly dance or not belly dance.

About 2 minutes in and then you decide.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtzeknZoylw&NR=1]YouTube - Samiha Toufic Egyptian Bellydancer[/ame]

The Golden Era refers to the Golden Era of Egyptian film making (1940s -1950s). We just happen to refer to that as the dancers from that time period and/or who starred in those films.
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_Egypt]Cinema of Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
That clip is darling!
The first 2 minutes- no not belly dancing, although the front girl is vaguely kind of sort of Meleya leff character referencing. This would have been before Mahmoud Reda created a staged dance based on the character, so it's very nice to see.
After 2 minutes. Yes, belly dancing. Of various levels. :)
Here's one with Mohamed Fowza singing Al Rabiya
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIFxR_nzhc8&feature=related]YouTube - ‫Ù…Ø*مد Ù�وزى-الربيع‬‎[/ame]
I see black panties under white diaphanous babydoll dresses. NOT belly dancing.

I've always just seen this Golden Era dancing as "inspired by" the Hollywood musicals, with culturally appropriate, relaxed Egyptian standards to synchronization (both spatial and timing). That's how a lot of troupe work is done as well.
On one of the Katy videos she's doing a sort of soft shoe style dancing in shorts. I can't find it on youtube though.
There's still a lot to glean culturally from these clips.

Musicals were very popular then there and over here in the west. You can see the similarities: hairstyles, costumes, chorus girls ets.

So they might start out as a western review but they end up belly dancing in the end.

But I would like to see the golden era dancers dance more in a nightclub stage setting vs a movie where they are following a scipt. It must limit and inhibit there dancing.

A lot of the Samia Gamal movie scenes were intended to be Western dance style. For example, in the movie Afrita Hanem, the closest thing to an Oriental scene is Kahramana, where she dances around Farid al-Atrache in a palace. Other scenes from that movie, such as Sketch al Rabie (the one with the waltz music) were intended to be Westernized dance style.

this one's from Afrita Hanem, isn't it rather oriental (once Samia sheds her fur)?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPP9Q4hTu7U]YouTube - Wonderful Samia Gamal !![/ame]

only posted because I feel this is more 'oriental' than the seductive scene you mention, Shira...which is really not much more than a bunch of wiggles with some arabesques and turns thrown in - and a fair amount of, well, pole dancing. ;)

whoa, I'd not seen this clip before. who is this dancer?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nukdhajajVw&feature=related]YouTube - ‫الزÙ�Ù‡‬‎[/ame]

Laila Murad made some very Westernized musicals. The serious hoofin' starts around 1:15 here.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYY7DsIqzKQ]YouTube -ليلى مراد ... أبجد هوز [/ame]

You know how sometimes they sell bagels that are covered in sesame seeds and poppy seeds and bits of onion and garlic and cracked pepper and coarse salt, and they call it an "Everything Bagel"? Um, yeah...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCtgJ2s4SEQ]YouTube - ليلى مراد اللي يقدر علي قلبي [/ame]

Originally Posted by anala

Or...... Was the Goldern Era so Golden?

Another poster on another thread remarked that much of the dancing seen on old films is not what was considered belly dance at the time. Post other old clips and tell us.....belly dance or not belly dance.

About 2 minutes in and then you decide.

YouTube - Samiha Toufic Egyptian Bellydancer

.w.: Hmmmmmmmmm, at about 3:18 .... looks like a lineup of beginner students here in the States ...... the arms, in particular () ???????

Originally Posted by nasila

whoa, I'd not seen this clip before. who is this dancer?

YouTube - ‫الزÙ�Ù‡‬‎

Wow ..my next project as an older dancer...Hmmm I think not!!!!!
Thanks for finding that. I am sure I have the same dancer on a clip in a compilation video tape but sadly I have no idea who she is.

Originally Posted by lizajuk

Wow ..my next project as an older dancer...Hmmm I think not!!!!!
Thanks for finding that. I am sure I have the same dancer on a clip in a compilation video tape but sadly I have no idea who she is.

yeah that's the real belly-magic!

Originally Posted by nasila

whoa, I'd not seen this clip before. who is this dancer?

YouTube - ‫الزÙ�Ù‡‬‎

This frightened me.

Originally Posted by nasila

who is this dancer?

I couldn't find her. The text accompanying the video says the film is "Narcissus," and the music is by Mohammed Fawzi. The elcinema page for that movie only lists three actresses, Nour al-Houdda, Zuzu Madi, and Aziza Helmy, and they don't look like matches for the dancer. I know that video has been uploaded here before, though.

Nour al-Houdda

Zuzu Madi

Aziza Helmy

Originally Posted by nasila

whoa, I'd not seen this clip before. who is this dancer?

It's Nabaweya Mustafa.

Tourbeau...that clip was epic, just epic!

Originally Posted by jessedan

It's Nabaweya Mustafa.

Yup, someone just posted a video of her on the fan forum the other day.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urbxB81X1Eg&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Belly dance by Nabaweya Moustafa in film "talaak Soad Hanem"[/ame]

Originally Posted by jessedan

It's Nabaweya Mustafa.

ah, yes! thank you. I'd seen that one in the cookie cutter thread but didn't recognize her, the style in this last clip is so very 'reserved' in comparison.

I can't find much in the way of a bio on her. Was she a circus performer also?

Originally Posted by nasila

I can't find much in the way of a bio on her. Was she a circus performer also?

No, she wasn't. Apparently her mother was a dancer as well because it is her mother Nousa, who is credited with having taught Taheya Carioca how to play sagat. Nabaweya Mustafa's career spanned from 1935 to 1955 when she retired to care for her family. There's not much more information about her, not even in arabic.

How cute was Fairouz Arteen?

Belly dance:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSdKreSje3E]YouTube - the legend child Fairouz Arteen belly dance as Samia Gamal[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYfttawiQbs]YouTube - the legend child Fairouz Arteen belly dance as Tahia Karioka[/ame]

Not belly dance:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8gAJ9MF9fA]YouTube - فيروز انا فى انتظارك تعالالى [/ame]

Everything Bagel (Datedly Un-PC, Multicultural Kids Edition):
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfLeIQ7RO5s]YouTube - فيروز فى اوبريت الوصى Fairouz Lebanon Arabic Song[/ame]

Fairouz's totally spot-on Tahia Carioca impression is the best example EVER of how it's not the movements that are inappropriate on a kid, it's not even the costume (other footage of her bellydancing in a mini-Golden Age outfit seems OK to me, hater of bedleh on kids, because she's so self-assured and clever). It's THAT FACIAL EXPRESSION.

She's doing it so well, too.

Originally Posted by Tourbeau

Everything Bagel (Datedly Un-PC, Multicultural Kids Edition):
YouTube - فيروز فى اوبريت الوصى Fairouz Lebanon Arabic Song

Intriguing... and kind of funny, even though I can't understand a word of it!
At about 5:32, what culture are they trying to portray? I get the others, but I can't figure this one out and it's killing me!

Originally Posted by Linnyg

This frightened me.

LOL - yeah, after a couple of those moves, I was wondering if her head was going to start spinning around next.

Originally Posted by Nouria

yeah that's the real belly-magic!

umpf. At least the beginning of it. Maybe she was hyper-flexible. Her hip moves are huge and fab but...it looks crazy allright the way she just throws her body into positions like her spine has no nerves...

Originally Posted by anala

belly dance or not belly dance.

About 2 minutes in and then you decide.

Okay - first couple of minutes - not belly dance. Thereafter - yes, belly dance (by definition even if the "director's nieces aren't doing a great job of it)

Wrt arms - the dancing with arms thing is very much a Western add-on as far as I can see. Arms in beledi second - or more often transitioning through beledi second - seems to be a more traditional way of movement.

Freedom of expression is of paramount importance in western society whether we borrrow from other cultures (belly dance) or radically morph a form (fusion). We need to give those living in other cultures the same basic right and not pigeon hole them into our expectations of how they should dance, sing or whatever. Some individuals will always seek the novel and integrate it. We have to allow this even if it shakes our vision of something we passionately love in its original form. Just imagine being an Egyptian bellydancer during the golden era? Wouldn't hollywood and, by extension, western culture have seemed exotic? Wouldn't you be cutting edge in your own culture by incorporating some of these foreign elements? If we are to accept fusion as bellydance then surely these golden age expiraments would be too.

Originally Posted by xochitl

Freedom of expression is of paramount importance in western society whether we borrrow from other cultures (belly dance) or radically morph a form (fusion). We need to give those living in other cultures the same basic right and not pigeon hole them into our expectations of how they should dance, sing or whatever. Some individuals will always seek the novel and integrate it. We have to allow this even if it shakes our vision of something we passionately love in its original form. Just imagine being an Egyptian bellydancer during the golden era? Wouldn't hollywood and, by extension, western culture have seemed exotic? Wouldn't you be cutting edge in your own culture by incorporating some of these foreign elements? If we are to accept fusion as bellydance then surely these golden age expiraments would be too.

Yes! Brilliant comment -

As to Western influence and arms - well - hello what about India and the Flamenco tradition? Those are not Western. at all. We've had some discussions regarding the Eastern influence on oriental dance; there are differences of opinion as to how great an influence this is/was - I think it's pretty huge and others think not so much - regardless intricate hand and arm movements are a major part of many types of oriental dance from Spain to the far East.

With respect to ballet - Egypt in particular was a very cosmopolitan country - the Khedive commissioned the opera "Aida" from Verdi! so there was an East/West/East exchange going on but of course this long predates the 19th century.

As far as innovation goes, we've had this same discussion in the rug world. Remarkably people love innovation in the West but seem to think the East should remain forever locked in the past.

Why is that? You read this in tourist brochures even - such and such is "just as it was in Biblical times."

This is good why?

I live in New Mexico and the Native Americans here find room for both in their artwork. Many of the younger artists resent the idea that they should remain locked into traditional design elements. If was made by a Native American, it is Native American art.

If I were to make an exquisite Hopi style kachina, it would just be a nice wooden sculpture - no matter how faithful to the original. How does that factor into our discussion?

Originally Posted by anala

I live in New Mexico and the Native Americans here find room for both in their artwork. Many of the younger artists resent the idea that they should remain locked into traditional design elements. If was made by a Native American, it is Native American art.

If I were to make an exquisite Hopi style kachina, it would just be a nice wooden sculpture - no matter how faithful to the original. How does that factor into our discussion?

Interesting question - the kachinas to the Hopi are sacred, represent sacred concepts - to people who understand Hopi belief systems the kachinas are far more than "dolls." Obviously to the Hopi themselves they are magic. And, they have in fact evolved artistically just in the past few decades.

I am not sure that you as an artist, I'm assuming not Native American, couldn't put a kind of magic into a kachina sculpture but it would be a different magic.

I did a "medicine bundle" for my sister, using Dineh sand paintings and other icons as the inspiration (on leather), it included beaded bags which I made, "prayer sticks" made out of tongue depressors from the vet (LOL) with feathers and painted - it wasn't Native American but I put as much personal magic into it as I could.

Does this make sense?

Same with a potter who copies Mimbres, Anasazi or other imagery - well for that matter look at Nampeyo family and modern Acoma and other Pueblo pieces - some of them reflect ancient iconography. Now these ARE Native American potters but they themselves are reflecting/copying an ancient style that won't mean the same thing as it did to their forbears.

So in the case of oriental dance - we must embrace the fact that we are who WE are - we can get inside the music and the form of the dance but our magic won't be Egyptian - it will be ours.

If we just copy then we'll be making pretty dolls, period.

That would be true of N.A. artists who just copy - maybe with the exception of ritual artifacts like sand paintings actually used in healing ceremonies - look at the innovators though, like Les Namingha, Dextra etc.

They are modern artists in the same sense as anybody else.

Aaarrrrgghhh - I hope this makes sense..l;, It is hard to put this stuff into words.

There are two things going on here: culture and art and the evolution not only within a culture but between cultures.

Oh I had one more thought (as usual) -..l;,

In addition to art, culture and evolution within and between cultures there is that final thing: the evolution of the individual artist.

That is to me the most important thing if we are discussing Art as Art - whether it's popular art, classical or folk art - it doesn't matter. Plus that overrides culture and also time.

We understand the "message" of a Rembrandt but also a powerful Japanese woodcut, a Nampeyo pot, a T'ang horse. We may not pick up all the nuances especially in the case of religious art - like a Tantric thangka or Christian painting - but generally, we will get the picture so to speak - as art.

And you see it - personal artistic evolution - even within the most traditional cultures, again with the possible exception of sacred ritualized artifacts: sand paintings and other aspects of healing rituals; the way the Torah is written.

In those cases, to make a change would be to court a problem with the World Above.

Even the creative kachinas include certain key attributes - so they are not *just* art. Spiritual belief systems inhabit much artistic creation and vice-versa - another example: Christian iconography that remains constant throughout centuries of creative painting, architecture and sculpture.

This is also where you get into form/content arguments. Well that's another story...l;, or maybe it isn't.

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