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Thread: Indian Dance/Belly Dance




  1. #1
    Just Starting! sicilianwillow's Avatar
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    Indian Dance/Belly Dance



    This is a dancer showing the differences of Egyptian dance and Indian Dance. She says there is no Indian Belly dance, but they borrow the moves from belly dance. It looks like belly dance to me with different arm undulations.

    There are at least 3 beginnings of belly dance, maybe more, one is Egypt, another is Turkey, and the third is India. So that is a nice start on history of dances for belly dance. What do you think of Indian style dance and Belly dance?


  2. #2
    Ultimate BHUZzer Tourbeau's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    There are historians who believe that some of what is known today as Middle Eastern dance originated with migrating peoples from the Indian subcontinent. Beyond that, there really isn't any more reason to talk about the stylistic variations between Indian and Middle Eastern dance than there is to talk about how those forms relate to Latin, Polynesian, Sub-Saharan African, or contemporary hip hop. The information she is giving about the different drums and how to dance to them makes little sense to me, because there is no one drum and no one way to dance in Middle Eastern culture. For that matter, India is exceedingly diverse, and multiple native styles of music and dance are represented there, too. If you are interested in contrasting Indian and Middle Eastern dance, I would recommend a teacher like DaVid, who is highly skilled and well respected in both areas, not an anonymous student with a YouTube channel.


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    Ultimate BHUZzer kina's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Hi Sicilianwillow,

    Thanks for the youtube. Do you know who the dancer is? I liked the way that she contrasted the sounds of the Middle Eastern tak with the dohl, it makes sense that movements would have different movement qualities, given the different sounds and instruments.

    Are you proposing this becuase you want to compare contrast the styles, or are you looking for something else with this discussion?

    I see you have only a few posts, welcome to bhuz.
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    Ultimate BHUZzer steffib's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by Tourbeau View Post
    There are historians who believe that some of what is known today as Middle Eastern dance originated with migrating peoples from the Indian subcontinent.
    Just to elaborate a bit on that (in agreement) - the Rom and Dom people, whose migration originated in India, have a significant impact on ME dance - so there is some connection. However, it is doubtful that much of the influence is actually material that comes from India; I learned that it is more likely that the material was adopted from other cultures, including e.g. Persia on the migratory route.

    We can NOT assume that the Rom/Dom people brought their culture from India with them and then passed it on and that therefore we have Indian roots in bellydance. While the images in the fabulous movie Latcho Drom are very persuasive, they are an artistic interpretation and trace an imaginary development, not a proven set of steps through history.


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    Just Starting! sicilianwillow's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    I don't know her name is, but if you read on the comments she's got a blog about it. The Url is here:

    http://genieshanu.wordpress.com/

    What was most interesting was that there was almost no difference between belly dance and what she considered Indian dance accept the arm movements and smoother, less hard hitting hips for a hip drop. So in each style of belly dance, is it that they just do different arm movements?

    If I'm learning Tribal and another person is learning Egyptian, but everyone of us is doing the same moves named differently, but slower, faster, or smoother, aren't we all doing the same dance? Just curious. Anyways it's a different version of the same old story, where did belly dance come from, at least it was new to me.

    Fat Chance Belly Dance borrows a lot of stuff including the style of costume, so I was just commenting on it. I thought the lady was a great dancer!


  6. #6
    missanime
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by kina View Post
    Hi Sicilianwillow,

    Thanks for the youtube. Do you know who the dancer is? I liked the way that she contrasted the sounds of the Middle Eastern tak with the dohl, it makes sense that movements would have different movement qualities, given the different sounds and instruments.

    Are you proposing this becuase you want to compare contrast the styles, or are you looking for something else with this discussion?

    I see you have only a few posts, welcome to bhuz.
    I forgot her name, but I looove her shimmy drills! She says on her blog that her bd training is very limited and she mostly does on her own now while going to school :) But here's my fave vid of her:

    thussell likes this.


  7. #7
    missanime
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by sicilianwillow View Post
    I don't know her name is, but if you read on the comments she's got a blog about it. The Url is here:

    http://genieshanu.wordpress.com/

    What was most interesting was that there was almost no difference between belly dance and what she considered Indian dance accept the arm movements and smoother, less hard hitting hips for a hip drop. So in each style of belly dance, is it that they just do different arm movements?

    If I'm learning Tribal and another person is learning Egyptian, but everyone of us is doing the same moves named differently, but slower, faster, or smoother, aren't we all doing the same dance? Just curious. Anyways it's a different version of the same old story, where did belly dance come from, at least it was new to me.

    Fat Chance Belly Dance borrows a lot of stuff including the style of costume, so I was just commenting on it. I thought the lady was a great dancer!
    The roots and technique may be from the same place (I thought bd was egyptian-based), the style on the other hand is of cultural/regional influences - borrowing from each other, or totally re-interpreted altogether :) Like in ballet--you can then go into classical, jazz, or modern styles :) But in each the discipline is still ballet!
    Last edited by missanime; 11-01-2010 at 08:42 PM.


  8. #8
    missanime
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by sicilianwillow View Post


    This is a dancer showing the differences of Egyptian dance and Indian Dance. She says there is no Indian Belly dance, but they borrow the moves from belly dance. It looks like belly dance to me with different arm undulations.

    There are at least 3 beginnings of belly dance, maybe more, one is Egypt, another is Turkey, and the third is India. So that is a nice start on history of dances for belly dance. What do you think of Indian style dance and Belly dance?
    Her name's Sabreena btw :D


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    I could get used to this! Wallowa's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by sicilianwillow View Post
    I don't know her name is, but if you read on the comments she's got a blog about it. The Url is here:

    http://genieshanu.wordpress.com/

    What was most interesting was that there was almost no difference between belly dance and what she considered Indian dance accept the arm movements and smoother, less hard hitting hips for a hip drop. So in each style of belly dance, is it that they just do different arm movements?

    If I'm learning Tribal and another person is learning Egyptian, but everyone of us is doing the same moves named differently, but slower, faster, or smoother, aren't we all doing the same dance? Just curious. Anyways it's a different version of the same old story, where did belly dance come from, at least it was new to me.

    Fat Chance Belly Dance borrows a lot of stuff including the style of costume, so I was just commenting on it. I thought the lady was a great dancer!
    folk dances (belly dance included) are more than just movement vocabulary, it is also the music, the rhythm, the costume and the cultural context. Remove one of these elements or mix and match them and you have a fusion style which some people don't think should be called belly dance at all.

    Marya
    Marya, the only Egyptian Style Belly Dancer in Wallowa County, Oregon


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    Mega BHUZzer kashmir's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by steffib View Post
    Just to elaborate a bit on that (in agreement) - the Rom and Dom people, whose migration originated in India, have a significant impact on ME dance - so there is some connection.
    What do you mean by "significant impact"? For instance shimmies and undulation were described at least a thousand years before Rom and/or Dom arrived in the Middle East. The idea of solo improvisation - which is unusual in folk dance also pre-dated them.

    If there was any signficant cultural movement I would pump for Arabic and then Turkish conquests which spread their music, language and clothing well before any impact of Rom.
    Quote Originally Posted by steffib View Post
    While the images in the fabulous movie Latcho Drom are very persuasive, they are an artistic interpretation and trace an imaginary development, not a proven set of steps through history.
    Yep, Latcho Dram has a lot to answer for. There are too many people out there who think it is a documentary!


  11. #11
    Mega BHUZzer kashmir's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by sicilianwillow View Post
    If I'm learning Tribal and another person is learning Egyptian, but everyone of us is doing the same moves named differently, but slower, faster, or smoother, aren't we all doing the same dance?
    No, because a dance style is more than the movement vocabulary. Jazz does hip drops and shimmies - but isn't belly dance. Salsa does hip work - and isn't belly dance. Hula does hip work - and isn't belly dance.

    Quote Originally Posted by sicilianwillow View Post
    Fat Chance Belly Dance borrows a lot of stuff including the style of costume, so I was just commenting on it.
    But nothing that FCBD wears is actually anything worn by any group in any time or place. If I wear a cowboy hat and an Amish skirt and tap shoes and Navaho jewellery and a dog collar and a Mexican peasant blouse am I dressed as an American? Does that make any dance I do - providing I throw in a doh-see-doh and slap my boots American folk dance?


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    Ultimate BHUZzer steffib's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by kashmir View Post
    What do you mean by "significant impact"? For instance shimmies and undulation were described at least a thousand years before Rom and/or Dom arrived in the Middle East. The idea of solo improvisation - which is unusual in folk dance also pre-dated them.
    I am more up to snuff with my Turkish history, here is what I can think of immediately, late at night: In Turkey, the street performers who shaped the way the dance was carried out in public were mostly Roma. Their social role as outsiders allowed them to dance in public, in contrast to a proper Turkish woman. And, since I am really tired - I hope it is not rude to refer to Artemis's article on Turkish dance, and anyways, she knows better than I do ;-) http://www.serpentine.org/artemis/turkishdance.html


  13. #13
    Ultimate BHUZzer Tourbeau's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    How is ME belly dance different from Polynesian hula? How is Egyptian dance different from Turkish? Beyond the obvious of music choice and costuming, these distinctions often come down to subtle variations in posture, muscle use, and energy expression. Each discipline is a critical mass of how things are done by natives to the culture, but it still comes down to generalizations. Egyptians USUALLY do THIS, but Turks TYPICALLY do THAT. There are a number of threads in the archives on these discussions, and you should be able to search on something like "what makes dance Egyptian" or "...Turkish" for more specifics.

    I actually find the explanation of the original video in this thread misleadingly wrong. There is no one drum, dancers don't always hit the doums or teks (sometimes they dance to the melody), and hip drops aren't always hard or soft in ME dance. I don't have any formal training in any Indian dance styles, but generally speaking, Turkish belly dance tends to be more energetic and external than Lebanese, and Lebanese more than Egyptian, but there is a lot of variation, and for every delicate little hip bump that Souheir Zaki did, you also have Mona Said blowing a gasket on a drum solo--and both women are completely and equally representative of Egyptian dance.

    I can't remember if you have indicated already, but based on the number and type of questions you have been asking, I would heartily recommend that you find an in-person teacher who offers beginners' classes if you have not already done so, or a different teacher if the one you are currently using does not provide background and cultural education with an opportunity to discuss these sorts of questions in class as part of your training. The quality of information online can vary from solidly reliable to complete garbage, and it is helpful to have a knowledgeable teacher monitoring the student's intake and acting as a consistent stylistic resource. Especially when one is first learning to dance, a comprehensive treatment of the fundamentals is necessary for building a solid foundation. It's better to learn properly the first time around than to correct and relearn later.


  14. #14
    Ultimate BHUZzer meissoun's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    OK, so what she dances in this video is basically a Bollywood item number. Meaning a sexy dance (with sexy lyrics), done by a nightclub dancer in a Hindi film.
    The movements she does are very typical for that style of song/dance.
    But just because somebody is moving their hips it doesn't make it bellydance. Or else salsa / samba would be Latin bellydance.
    Then there is also no such thing as "Indian dance" - no more than there is "European dance".
    There are tons of classical and folk dances all over the subcontinent of India.

    I used to say that just because something is written somewhere it doesn't mean that it's true. Maybe I have to change it to "Just because somebody has a video about it on YouTube, it doesn't mean that it's true" ..l;,

    MEISSOUN
    thussell and SomaBellydance like this.


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    Advanced BHUZzer yameyameyame's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    India has a variety of folkloric and classical dances. They are very different from one another, and from belly dance! Here are some examples:

    Bhangra


    Rajasthani


    Bharatanatyam


    Kathak



    Bollywood



    Disclaimer: I don't have any training in any of the above dance forms. I don't know if all (or any) of them are good examples of those forms, but I hope that they help to illustrate the diversity of Indian dance forms. It would be great if some bhuzzers with actual training and knowledge in some Indian dance could chime in!


  16. #16
    missanime
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by yameyameyame View Post
    India has a variety of folkloric and classical dances. They are very different from one another, and from belly dance! Here are some examples:

    Bhangra

    Rajasthani

    Bharatanatyam

    Kathak

    Bollywood



    Disclaimer: I don't have any training in any of the above dance forms. I don't know if all (or any) of them are good examples of those forms, but I hope that they help to illustrate the diversity of Indian dance forms. It would be great if some bhuzzers with actual training and knowledge in some Indian dance could chime in!
    Really lovely these all are :) I always love to seeing different types of dances and styles from other countries--these are great I think!

    And...I thinkthe bollywood comes from Punjabi, not sure tho lol :) And of course I also love seeibt the more traditional dances of India too--always found so interesting to me!


  17. #17
    Advanced BHUZzer yameyameyame's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    As far as I know, Bollywood refers to a part of the movie industry in India in the same way that Hollywood refers to, well... anything from Hollywood in the US?

    So whatever dance they do in those movies is Bollywood dance. Bollywood dances borrow from many different Indian dances and other dances as well. I don't think it's formal and defined in the sense that the classical Indian dances are.


  18. #18
    missanime
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by yameyameyame View Post
    As far as I know, Bollywood refers to a part of the movie industry in India in the same way that Hollywood refers to, well... anything from Hollywood in the US?

    So whatever dance they do in those movies is Bollywood dance. Bollywood dances borrow from many different Indian dances and other dances as well. I don't think it's formal and defined in the sense that the classical Indian dances are.
    Lol yep - modern pop. (I got heavily into the famous actress Aishwarya Rai and on where bollywood came from. And yes, bollywood is India's equivalent to our hollywood lol). Punjabi in fact is quite popular music in many nightclubs too - and in fact I seem to be listening to alot of that and reggaton as well Lol :)
    Last edited by missanime; 11-03-2010 at 03:49 AM.


  19. #19
    Ultimate BHUZzer meissoun's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    I have been into Indian dance styles (Bharata Natyam, Bhangra, Bollywood Dance, Dandiya) for the last 13 years, so call me a specialist

    Bollywood refers to the Hindi Film Industry, also sometimes called HiFI... Located in Mumbai (formerly Bombay).
    There is also Tollywood (Telugu films), Kollywood (Tamil films), Lollywood (from Lahore, Pakistan) etc.

    Bhangra is a music style and folk dance from Punjab in North India and Pakistan. It is popular to have a Bhangra number in a Hindi film since it's considered to be fun party music.
    Actually, "Bollywood Dance" is a very large field, there is not one style but it refers to all the dancing that is done in Hindi films - it can be inspired by classical Indian dances, folk dances, hip hop, flamenco etc. The goal is to have entertaining, varied dance numbers. Classical dancers often look down on Bollywood dance as being "not art".

    Here's a scene of a Bollywood actress playing a bellydancer. It's what Hindi choreographers believe that Oriental dance looks like ..l;,
    The interesting thing for us is that this was actually filmed in the Sahara City tent in Cairo (which used to be a famous place in the 70ies), so it's kind of a historical document :-)



    MEISSOUN


  20. #20
    missanime
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by meissoun View Post
    I have been into Indian dance styles (Bharata Natyam, Bhangra, Bollywood Dance, Dandiya) for the last 13 years, so call me a specialist

    Bollywood refers to the Hindi Film Industry, also sometimes called HiFI... Located in Mumbai (formerly Bombay).
    There is also Tollywood (Telugu films), Kollywood (Tamil films), Lollywood (from Lahore, Pakistan) etc.

    Bhangra is a music style and folk dance from Punjab in North India and Pakistan. It is popular to have a Bhangra number in a Hindi film since it's considered to be fun party music.
    Actually, "Bollywood Dance" is a very large field, there is not one style but it refers to all the dancing that is done in Hindi films - it can be inspired by classical Indian dances, folk dances, hip hop, flamenco etc. The goal is to have entertaining, varied dance numbers. Classical dancers often look down on Bollywood dance as being "not art".

    Here's a scene of a Bollywood actress playing a bellydancer. It's what Hindi choreographers believe that Oriental dance looks like ..l;,
    The interesting thing for us is that this was actually filmed in the Sahara City tent in Cairo (which used to be a famous place in the 70ies), so it's kind of a historical document :-)



    MEISSOUN
    Ahh thank you so much for this! :D Yea I knew banghra was also pop music, but couldnt remember for sure which Indian state it came from :) There's so many youtube vids now showing how to do it it's nuts lol.

    My fave dvd for learning bollywood is the Bollyrobics (http://bollyrobics.com/) :D soooo much fun!

    Oh--and fab bd costume in that movie too btw--I think red is such a gorgeous color for bdancing :))
    Last edited by missanime; 11-03-2010 at 04:01 AM.


  21. #21
    Official BHUZzer SomaBellydance's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    I was trying to refrain from posting, because I get kind of crazy about this stuff. I studied classical Indian dance for over 10 years and am of one of the more marginalized cultural groups of the subcontinent, so I get upset when different art forms and cultures are misrepresented or all lumped together gratuitously. :soapbox:

    There are 9 recognized "classical" Indian dance forms, meaning they follow the tenets of the Natya Shastra, an ancient text outlining proper theatre art. These are:

    1. Bharatanatyam (from Tamil Nadu, in the South)
    2. Kuchipudi (from Andhra Pradesh, in the South-Southeast)
    3. Mohiniyattam (from Kerala/Tamil Nadu, in the South)
    4. Kathakali (from Kerala, in the Southwest)
    5. Odissi (from Orissa, in the East)
    6. Gaudiya Nritya (from W. Bengal, in the East-Northeast)
    7. Manipuri (from Manipur, in the Northeast)
    8. Sattriya (from Assam, in the Northeast)
    9. Kathak (from Utthar Pradesh, in the North)

    Many of these have religious contexts, but most have been removed from temples at this point and placed on the stage (or in film). Kathak is probably the greatest example of that - beginning as a temple dance, moving to the courts of the Mughal empire, then to Bollywood.

    And these are just the currently "recognized" classical, formalized dance forms (doesn't include any of the hundreds of folk dances). I think this is a great example of the "if we all use the same vocabulary, why isn't it all belly dance" question. The Natya Shastra actually outlines movement, gesture, facial expression, etc, and yet each of the 9 dance forms above is distinctly different from the others. Each has a different cultural context, and the same is true for belly dance. Differences in language, climate, geography, religion, morals, aesthetics, even politics produce unique interpretations and entities. Thus, there is no such thing as "Indian dance" (let alone "Indian belly dance"), and the term "Middle Eastern Dance" encompasses just as wide a diversity of styles. We use the terms "classical Indian dance" and "MED" to make communicating easier.

    So before you meet an Indian and say "Ohhh! I love Bhangra!" or "Ooooh! Will you teach us Bollywood dance?!" (which I have been asked), think twice. And don't take any one person's word (not mine, not meissoun's, not that random girl with the youtube channel) as gospel. India may be the world's largest democracy, but, believe it or not, one person can not and does not represent everyone.

    And yes, I am one of those classical dancers who can't stand modern Bollywood dance. It also drives me crazy when Middle Eastern dancers take "Indian" stage names or name their troupes after Hindu gods/goddesses/concepts. It makes no sense and feels disrespectful, as if you can lump all these things together willy-nilly because they're all "exotic."

    But I adore Zeenat Aman (the actress in that clip meissoun posted).
    Last edited by SomaBellydance; 11-03-2010 at 08:52 AM.
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    Keep the song in your throat
    Let your hands bring out the meaning
    Your glance should be full of expression
    While your feet maintain the rhythm
    -- from the Natya Shastra


  22. #22
    missanime
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by SomaBellydance View Post
    I was trying to refrain from posting, because I get kind of crazy about this stuff. I studied classical Indian dance for over 10 years and am of one of the more marginalized cultural groups of the subcontinent, so I get upset when different art forms and cultures are misrepresented or all lumped together gratuitously. :soapbox:

    There are 9 recognized "classical" Indian dance forms, These are:

    1. Bharatanatyam (from Tamil Nadu, in the South)
    2. Kuchipudi (from Andhra Pradesh, in the South-Southeast)
    3. Mohiniyattam (from Kerala/Tamil Nadu, in the South)
    4. Kathakali (from Kerala, in the Southwest)
    5. Odissi (from Orissa, in the East)
    6. Gaudiya Nritya (from W. Bengal, in the East-Northeast)
    7. Manipuri (from Manipur, in the Northeast)
    8. Sattriya (from Assam, in the Northeast)
    9. Kathak (from Utthar Pradesh, in the North)

    Many of these have religious contexts, but most have been removed from temples at this point and placed on the stage (or in film). Kathak is probably the greatest example of that - beginning as a temple dance, moving to the courts of the Mughal empire, then to Bollywood.

    And these are just the currently "recognized" classical, formalized dance forms (doesn't include any of the hundreds of folk dances). I think this is a great example of the "if we all use the same vocabulary, why isn't it all belly dance" question. The Natya Shastra actually outlines movement, gesture, facial expression, etc, and yet each of the 9 dance forms above is distinctly different from the others. Each has a different cultural context, and the same is true for belly dance. Differences in language, climate, geography, religion, morals, aesthetics, even politics produce unique entities. Thus, there is no such thing as "Indian dance" (let alone "Indian belly dance"), and the term "Middle Eastern Dance" encompasses just as wide a diversity of styles. We use the terms "classical Indian dance" and "MED" to make communicating easier.

    So the next time you meet an Indian and say "Ohhh! I love Bhangra!" or "Ooooh! Will you teach us Bollywood dance?!" (which I have been asked), think twice. And don't take any one person's word (not mine, not meissoun's, not that random girl with the youtube channel) as gospel. India may be the world's largest democracy, but, believe it or not, one person can not and does not represent everyone.

    And yes, I am one of those classical dancers who can't stand modern Bollywood dance. It also drives me crazy when Middle Eastern dancers take "Indian" stage names or name their troupes after Hindu gods/goddesses/concepts. It makes no sense and feels disrespectful, as if you can lump all these things together willy-nilly because they're all "exotic."
    Lol welcome to the eternally-homogenizing america Lol ;) Which yes I've been wondering why so many take on indian or diety names!

    :)Thanks again


  23. #23
    Mega BHUZzer kashmir's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by missanime View Post
    I've been wondering why so many take on indian or diety names!
    In my case I got my stage name from the Led Zepplin track as a baby dancer. As I did the Latin & chemistry route at school I had never done any geography and never realized where Kashmir was - nor that it is a male name ..c:: The time I'd realized my mistake I had already built up my name among a GP who also didn't know where Kashmir was - and probably assumed belly dance was Indian any way. ,r:;


  24. #24
    Advanced BHUZzer raqFariha's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    hey, not all Americans lump "every thing else" together! ^_~

    Sicilianwillow: if your teacher isn't giving any cultural information and it's not an option to find a new one, or if you'd simply like to supplement the info you're getting, i'd recommend Shira's site (www.shira.net) and Shems'es site (www.shemsdance.com) both have a lot of great information, and Shems'es in particular has a wonderful article on the basics of different bellydance styles.
    it can sometimes get really touchy, the discussion about what is and isn't bellydance. i think everyone wants to help clear up misconceptions before you get too attached to a myth and refuse to let it go or take evidence contrary to such a myth personally, as sometimes happens (but wouldn't necessarily, i don't know you ^_~)
    one of those old threads has a really neat ven-diagram that belongs to Nadira Gamal (i think.... i can't find it so i'm probably remembering the name wrong) anyway it is a good visual for sorting out different styles.


  25. #25
    missanime
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by kashmir View Post
    In my case I got my stage name from the Led Zepplin track as a baby dancer. As I did the Latin & chemistry route at school I had never done any geography and never realized where Kashmir was - nor that it is a male name ..c:: The time I'd realized my mistake I had already built up my name among a GP who also didn't know where Kashmir was - and probably assumed belly dance was Indian any way. ,r:;
    Lol :)


  26. #26
    Just Starting! sicilianwillow's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    I'm learning from dvd only, prefer that way because I have no intention on ever being a professional dancer, not to say it can't be done. Belly dance is new to me, but not to many. I'm just asking questions, not trying to start any serious debate. MY POINT TO THE QUESTION, is this, the Indian dance, which the dancer clearly says is borrowed from belly dance, but is done in an Indian style, which to me looks just like belly dance with a few changes.

    Let's say I'm going to take Egyptian next year, when I get to Egyptian, I might say, this is so similar, I could have just read of the differences in a book. I also hear some people say they can't get the belly dance they want because no local teachers, so they take a different type. So this different type of belly dance is so similar with the basics, this person can still get the dance they want by learning the slight differences in a book or dvd.

    How slight is the difference of each belly dance, enough to call it different? Enough to say you definitely need a teacher to learn the others dance even if are fully expertly trained at another style?

    I'm not asking for anyone to historically justify Indian Dance, I'm asking if all belly dances are only slightly different than the other, do you need a special teacher after you have mastered one type of belly dance?

    What do you mean by "significant impact"? For instance shimmies and undulation were described at least a thousand years before Rom and/or Dom arrived in the Middle East. The idea of solo improvisation - which is unusual in folk dance also pre-dated them.
    This is interesting for historical reasons, since I've had debate over history already elsewhere, which I don't think I asked here because my post wasn't asking how historically correct, just the similarities of each dance and how each could be that similar by basic steps, Do you have an url what would show shimmies and undulations were documented a thousand years ago? I'm just interested. I love Turkish Oriental and read already the dance was a toss up over who created it, Egypt or Turkey.

    Thanks for all the replies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please don't worry about a home learner, we are not going to run to Egypt to teach them their own dance! We are just home learners! I know all of you are proud of being in a class, but belly dance is not brain surgery, I'm not going to kill anyone if I don't shimmy the right way, I may get laughed at for doing it wrong, but it's not scientific. I'm doing well for the moves, although I have not practiced the end routine at the end of the dvd and slacking on zills, I'm coming along very well.


  27. #27
    missanime
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Missed! Sorry :(
    Last edited by missanime; 11-09-2010 at 01:49 AM. Reason: missed


  28. #28
    Mega BHUZzer kashmir's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by sicilianwillow View Post
    I'm asking if all belly dances are only slightly different than the other, do you need a special teacher after you have mastered one type of belly dance?
    Depends. Most of my teachers were Egyptian when I have done some classes with Turkish trained teachers - even after ten years - I still need them to point out differences. The shoulder shimmy is generated from here. The attitude is this. This gesture means that. You interpret this 9/8 like this.

    My body could respond because it had been trained to dance - but some moves were generated so differently I almost had to start from scratch and relearn it. I may have picked up some bits from careful study of a range of good Turkish dancers - although at the time all I had access to were the soft porn types - but frankly I don't think my eye would have picked up even all of the body mechanics. And certainly not the cultural stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by sicilianwillow View Post
    Do you have an url what would show shimmies and undulations were documented a thousand years ago? I'm just interested.
    Sorry - no came from a book or article quoting Romans observing dancers in North Africa/Egypt - not entirely sure of when or where. No doubt I'll come across it again as I cross reference my library - but it has been on the list for quite awhile.


  29. #29
    Advanced BHUZzer caroline_afifi's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Sicilain Willow, One of the oldest clips we have on record is a dancer believed to be of ME/North African origin. It is a Thomas Edison clip called 'Fatima's dance' and was the first inm history to be censored.
    The dancer is wearing Western clothes but some of the moves are recognisable.. personally I thought it looked like some Tunisian styles in parts.

    I dont think it is helpful to look at vague histories in order to understand the dance we know as 'Oriental dance/belly dance' today.

    Oriental dance as we know it, is less than 100 years old. I guess the dance would have changed somewhat and evolved with the practictioners at least 100 years before it reached the stage.

    It is impossible to define 'who did what' and 'what came from where' as we only have written accounts... and mostly by Western travel writers.

    As useful as those accounts are, I dont think it is useful to speculate and draw comparisons.
    Too often we have situations where it becomes clear that people use images and 'historical accounts' to back up their personal theories and beliefs in this dance, seldom do they have anything to do with any real 'truths' and revelations.

    We all walk the planet as humans putting one foot infront of the other... that is where our similarites often end... then nurture and culture takes over. Dance is pretty much the same.
    Last edited by caroline_afifi; 11-09-2010 at 05:23 PM. Reason: Typo's as usual


  30. #30
    Ultimate BHUZzer Tourbeau's Avatar
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    Re: Indian Dance/Belly Dance

    Quote Originally Posted by sicilianwillow View Post
    I'm learning from dvd only, prefer that way because I have no intention on ever being a professional dancer
    This is like saying, "I want to learn to play the guitar, but I don't plan on being a professional, so I don't need to tune my strings." I understand not wanting to go into obsessive detail if you only want a superficial grasp of the material, but if you can learn things properly, shouldn't you?

    MY POINT TO THE QUESTION, is this, the Indian dance, which the dancer clearly says is borrowed from belly dance, but is done in an Indian style, which to me looks just like belly dance with a few changes.
    And everyone's answer here is that there are many dance styles that use similar moves. Indian dances have some similarities to other styles, and there is anthropological hypothesizing about how much impact Indian cultures had on ME cultures, but so what? She's just some girl with a YouTube channel, not a renowned dance ethnographer.

    Let's say I'm going to take Egyptian next year, when I get to Egyptian, I might say, this is so similar, I could have just read of the differences in a book.
    These sorts of subtleties are very difficult to describe in writing. You may as well be trying to describe why orange juice doesn't taste like orange Kool-Aid.

    So this different type of belly dance is so similar with the basics, this person can still get the dance they want by learning the slight differences in a book or dvd.
    Not if you care about being good at these styles.

    How slight is the difference of each belly dance, enough to call it different?
    A chicken is more like a goose than a dog, and a chicken is more like a dog than an octopus. Labanotation is probably the most common system for documenting dance, but it is not optimized for MED, and its use is virtually nonexistent here. In the absence of an unambiguous notation system, we have no mechanism to put these differences coherently to paper, and there are few scholarly resources available.

    I'm asking if all belly dances are only slightly different than the other, do you need a special teacher after you have mastered one type of belly dance?
    Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian are similar languages. Knowing one may make it easier to learn another, but they are not interchangeable. Mastering their differences is not trivial. All but a few linguistically gifted individuals are doomed to mediocrity without access to good, in-person teachers to train them.

    Similarly, all but a few extraordinarily talented dance students are doomed to mediocrity without access to good, in-person teachers with expertise in each area they want to learn. No, knowing one style does not translate automatically to competence in another. That's why students who care about these things seek out workshops and live classes with specialists.


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