Thread: How high is too high?

How high is too high when doing high kicks or 'grande battements' in ME dance?

In a recent audition, I was told that kicking the leg very high is offensive in Middle Eastern dance, and that I needed to lower it to only hip height or remove it altogether from my performance. This is the very first time I have had this said to me, as everyone else tells me 'if you've got it, flaunt it' (as long as my skirt covers what it needs to cover) since due to my past as a professional ballet dancer and I have such a graceful fusion style, and that they wish they could do whatever balletic things I added to my solo.

I would love to hear from this community what percentage of you believe that kicking higher that hip height is indeed offensive, whether it be:
1 - during a balletic fusion solo, no matter the skirt worn, as long as everything is covered...
2 - in a full, flouncy skirt with no slits, no skin could show except ankles...
3 - in a swirly trumpet skirt with modesty panel...there is a very, tiny, small chance of mishap where the inner thigh might show to certain audience members, but not up as high as the actual undergarments showing....
4 - in a straight skirt where everything would be barely covered in that position...
5 - in a dance where the choreography is otherwise purely Oriental...

I really need to know how much of the MED community I am offending with adding this specific movement into my choreography. Even though this is the first time I have heard this about my solo, and have always been told the opposite, there may be many silent ones out there, and I really want to know what the general opinion is among my fellow dancers.

On the other side, how many of you feel that any of the above instances would be OK?

(3000 limit...continued)

(continued)

Obviously I come from a strong ballet background, and even danced professionally with several companies for about 7 years. It has been hard to let go of some of my balletic training while learning MED, such as holding a massive rigid posture in the torso and letting the pelvis move and shake freely, which is obviously required for this dance style....but other balletic things I have been encouraged by many teachers to maintain or even flaunt to a certain level. So much so that people have approached me after my performances to say they were expecting to see a certain level my 'balletic tricks' and I didn't do enough for them (I had to explain that I am at times limited by the costume or a folkloric dance style, as I do not always perform my balletic fusion style.)

The most common thing I have heard from instructors, peers, and audience members is that I need to use/show more of my flexibility and ability to turn precisely from my ballet training, as that is what sets me far apart from all the other dancers. I normally will have at least one section where I do continuous turns across the stage, blending more difficult turns in with chenés, and some instructors love adding a small small solo of me doing a couple fouetté turns (a very hard pirouette type turn) in troupe dances, or having my end pose be in a full split, etc... Other elements I like to add in my solos are rather high grande battements ((very HIGH kicks) when I was a ballerina, I could kick my leg clear behind my shoulder and if you snapped a photo at the right time, you would see a foot sorta growing out of the top of my head...now I can only touch my shoulder with my knee, so I have lost some of the extreme-ness of it, but it is still rather impressive) as long as the costume/dance style warrants. At that spot in my choreography, I always feel a reaction from the audience that most of the time I can also hear, intakes of breath, people saying 'wow', 'whoah', or 'oooooh'. I have always felt this to be a positive reaction, and not that what I did was shocking in the negative sense, but just a surprising movement that audiences of MED don't often see.

Could my fellow dancers please weigh in on this issue, as I certainly need to know if I am being offensive, or if what I am doing is welcome in the MED world as long as I am modestly covered where it matters, and as long as it is a ballet fusion, and not just throwing a huge battement in an otherwise 100% pure traditional Egyptian, Turkish, Lebanese, or other form of dance.

i think if you're doing fusion, the kicks are probably ok. but i was always taught to not kick high in oriental dance. i say keep the kicks lower.
and i think it would be offensive if you flashed someone...that's about it lol.

I was taught (from various workshop instructors) that high kicks are fine & authentic for Turkish style, keep it very very low (like below the knee, if that) for Egyptia, and even for Turkish, it is a quick kick, not a sustained lift.

I have seen high kicks from Russian dancers as well, but I have no idea what traditions & connotations play into that.

So it depends on style & specific audience. I love Morocco's story "feets on the ground, feets together, we no want to see your pussy cat!" Ask her for the full story.

oh, and personally, I like doing a high kick & turning the "recovery" onto a turn- kind of mitigates the shock factor & makes it all purty...

Former bun head here. This is my perspective, I think high kicks should be left for ballet, jazz and the Rockettes. No offense, but this is belly dance, which is earthy, and low center (although we obviously use our high center at the same time!)

What I have been told and always practiced is that kicks should not be more than waist high, and then only a few and only with a skirt which you KNEW beyond a shadow of a doubt would not show your underwear while you were executing the kick.

I agree that showcasing your flexibility is great. but it sounds as though using a lot of your ballet "tricks" is not giving you the opportunity to really become proficient in Belly Dance. Which is a totally different kettle of fish. I would be leary of taking the advice towards a cirque act level.

{{{HUGS}}}

Everything Tahira said. I'm not aware of it being offensive, it's just not really what bellydance is about.

For sure you can use splits in floor and that sort of thing, but if you want to see how ballet looks ME style have a look at some Reda.

I think higher than 90 degrees is too high, and even then it should only be done very rarely and if it's going to be used as your stylistic "shtick" you kind of really need to have your belly dance technique down so you don't just look like a ballet dancer parodying belly dance.
If you take a look a Randa Kamel, you will see that she does a lot of relatively high kicks (for a belly dancer) but I don't think it takes away from her belly dancing.
Getting your foot up to your head though is another matter, and I think that should be saved for fusion.

I'm so happy to see this thread! Fellow high kicker BUT I keep my kicks to more of a high knee lift with a flick of the foot under full layered skirts and harem pants or a stretched out back kick on a pivot or in a turn. What are your opinions on this?

If you look at Tulay Karaca's older videos you will see she did some high kicks. I guess it depends what your style is....

Originally Posted by Lara L

I was taught (from various workshop instructors) that high kicks are fine & authentic for Turkish style, keep it very very low (like below the knee, if that) for Egyptia, and even for Turkish, it is a quick kick, not a sustained lift.

I have seen high kicks from Russian dancers as well, but I have no idea what traditions & connotations play into that.

So it depends on style & specific audience. I love Morocco's story "feets on the ground, feets together, we no want to see your pussy cat!" Ask her for the full story.

I'd imagine the Russian dancers are coming from ballet as well. I've also seen it in Turkish style. basically agreeing with Lara L. we usually think of ballet having been brought into the Egyptian style, but this isn't one of the things that that style took and changed. people also tend to see Egyptian as the "best" so that might be where the critique was coming from, in an audition they're going to be looking for a certain style, no need to sweat it because if you have to change your style TOO MUCH then you probably wouldn't have enjoyed the gig anyway ^_~.
i know showing the bottom on your foot is offensive, but i think that's a different situation, like a sustained putting your foot at someone, not a kick where the bottom of ur foot flashes for a little bit.
since you have such ingrained training, i would practice without them sometimes, just so that you can have the grounded style open to you when you want to use it.

I too have years of Ballet in my dance history, I love high kicks and am proud of my flexibility......but.....I have had over 10 years of training by various teachers in MED, most of which are traditionalists, in trying to keep things as true to their cultures as possible.

I've always been taught, keep your knees together, if you do a big hip circle get your legs back together again as quickly as possible, if you do floorwork Never Ever sit with your crotch facing the audience while your legs are spread, whether sitting on your knees or some other way (of course, all my teachers have also been totally against MEDers doing splits, etc)......along those lines we were taught the 'proper' sort of kicks for MED were low, below the waist, you can swoop your leg around to make a beautiful sweep with your skirt, you can do a knee up kick, and many other variations, but none sustained in the air for more than a few seconds, none really high in the air.

I was always told we need to look and dance like proper ladies, proper ladies do not bring attention to their crotch (even when it is under layers of skirts and harem pants).

I love ballet and have seen some lovely ballet-belly dance fusions, but even then I prefer those that keep the kicks low.

Originally Posted by KristinaBallerina

In a recent audition, I was told that kicking the leg very high is offensive in Middle Eastern dance, and that I needed to lower it to only hip height or remove it altogether from my performance. This is the very first time I have had this said to me, as everyone else tells me 'if you've got it, flaunt it' (as long as my skirt covers what it needs to cover) since due to my past as a professional ballet dancer and I have such a graceful fusion style, and that they wish they could do whatever balletic things I added to my solo.

Something I periodically tell my students: Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean you should. I think the people telling you "if you've got it, flaunt it' probably aren't really thinking about whether it would work on an artistic level. They're probably jealous (in a friendly way) of your ballet skills and wish they could do it too.

The problem with incorporating kicks into belly dancing is that it's very, very difficult to do it in a way that works well artistically. Belly dancing is a core-focused dance, whereas ballet is a limb-focused dance. Belly dancing uses a lot of internal energy, whereas kicks are essentially hurling energy away from your body. So, it takes someone with a very finely-tuned skill at choreography to overcome these clashing aesthetics and weave them together into something that is pleasing to watch. I've seen a lot of attempts that seemed pretty incoherent, as if the dancer couldn't make up her mind which dance style she wanted to do.

I think the question of "How high is too high?" also depends somewhat on your costume choice. If you choose pants instead of a skirt, then the kicks wouldn't be offensive. There's still the issue of whether they make sense artistically, but at least they wouldn't be inviting the audience to look up your skirt. Depending on your personal fashion preferences, you could go with either Melodia-style flares, lycra bell-bottoms such as those worn by some Egyptian dancers, or for a retro look harem pants.

Originally Posted by KristinaBallerina

People have approached me after my performances to say they were expecting to see a certain level my 'balletic tricks' and I didn't do enough for them.

The most common thing I have heard from instructors, peers, and audience members is that I need to use/show more of my flexibility and ability to turn precisely from my ballet training, as that is what sets me far apart from all the other dancers. I normally will have at least one section where I do continuous turns across the stage, blending more difficult turns in with chenés, or having my end pose be in a full split, etc... Other elements I like to add in my solos are rather high grande battements ((very HIGH kicks).

Building on what I said in a previous post, it's very difficult to create an artistically coherent fusion of ballet and belly dance, because the two dance forms are very different. I'm sure audiences are wowed by your ballet tricks, because it's a skill that very, very few people have. We all love to watch people who are very good at doing something we know is very difficult. But, since you're exploring belly dance, one question you'll want to ask yourself is whether you're just doing a series of tricks for tricks' own sake.

If you'd like to see how some dancers with lots of flexibility incorporate it into their performances, here are some examples that I enjoy:

• Nadia Hamdi dancing with a shamadan, where she sinks into the splits and then bends her back foot up toward her head. The dancer Morocco sells a video of a dance concert which includes this segment.
• The clip from the movie Ebn Hamido (Son of Hamido) in which Naemet Mokhtar does an amazing backbend as part of her performance. This gets posted on youtube every now and then. Not sure if it's there at the moment.
• The video of Fifi Abdo titled Concert at El Esmailia in which she takes a running start, leaps, and lands in the splits.
• The scene from the video Nadia Gamal: The Legend in which, dancing to the theme song from the old tv show Bonanza, Nadia goes into a deep backbend and hops across the floor in high heels. Video should be available from Hollywood Music Center.
• The scene from the 1950's-era movie Son of Sinbad in which the Turkish dancer Nejla Ates does an amazing backbend.
• The clip of Helena Vlahos from the old tv show That's Incredible in which she slithers through a deep backbend down to the floor.

The Egyptian dancer Randa Kamel had a lot of ballet training before joining a folk troupe and then going on to do solo Oriental-style work. Sometimes she includes kicks. I've liked some of these performances, not others. Sometimes it looks like she's just throwing in a kick for the sake of kicking, and it's kind of jarring. Other times, it fits with the music and the rest of the dance.

As dance students, we are constantly being pulled in conflicting directions. "Belly dancers always do X!"..."Who told you belly dancers always do X? Belly dancers NEVER do X!"..."Who told you we never do X? That person misunderstood. Egyptian dancers sometimes do X."..."Who said that Egyptian dancers do X? It's the Turkish dancers who do X!"... Whenever someone tells you something is or isn't a particular style, it's good to consider the source and the range of possible "true" answers.

Yes, high, ballet-style kicking is not indigenous to the dance, and some Middle Easterners are offended if the feet are lifted high off the floor in a conspicuous way, kicking or otherwise. Still, some dancers do incorporate higher kicks than one might see in the social presentation in its native lands. My personal feeling is that the best course is to cherrypick the parts of your ballet career that are useful for MED (ability to do extended turn sequences, awareness of body lines, etc.) and leave the ones that aren't at home. When a dancer starts to incorporate too many elements that are readily identifiable as belonging to another dance form, there is always the risk that "fusion" can turn into "If you wanted to do that other dance, then why are you here, pretending you want to do this one?" Where that line is depends partly on the style you are aiming for. The more folkloric and traditional you want to be, the less the Westernized precision and strength of a dance like ballet fits into the picture, unless you are talking about the professional folkloric troupes, whose styles have adopted some balletic elements (e.g., Reda). It's possible that when this person introduced the idea of "offensive" to you, they meant not that it was a cultural faux pas to kick high, but that natives might view too much ballet influence as not being "their dance anymore," and the misrepresentation as such was what could be potentially offensive to them.

IMO, the high kick in this dance *feels* WAY better than it actually looks. We want to do it because it's fun and WE enjoy it, but if anyone has a vid clip of MED where a high kick doesn't appear incongruous or contrived, I'd love to see it.

IMO, avoid kicks in general and reign in those gams to a downward 45 degree max when doing an arabesque. For Turkish-style skirt-kick, max of 90-degree (from hip-to-knee) kick (with knee bent, and knee-to-toe not straight out) in your most outrageously energetic Turkish-type skirt-kick & turn/recovery routine (only then with a full, multilayered/ruffled skirt).

-Devora

IMO high kicks have nothing to do with MED. I have a friend capable of doing lovely back-flips, somersaults, high kicks, tumbling, etc. For years she taught those activities to children. But as she advises her MED students 'just because you can do something does not mean you should do it when performing MED'. As in all things we must focus on being situation appropriate. The wow factor can be positive or negative.

Are you doing belly dance or fusion? In fusion, occasional kicks may work. Within belly dance though it doesn't fit the style. If you were really good at tap would you add that and still call it belly dance? I doubt it.

Personally, occasional kicks keeping the foot below the knee can fit. Yes, I know some dancers over there add higher kicks - I can see Aida Nour's occasional "high" kick - but even that was no more than 90 degrees I think - and considered "shocking".

As far as offense goes, keeping in mind that professional belly dancers in themselves are offensive, but showing the shape of the crutch - even while wearing trousers is considered offensive for ordinary women. So, I wouldn't add kicks.

If you want to use your ballet training use the footwork, balance, posture and turns. Look at some of the work that Mohamed Kazafy puts out (hip drop release piroutte anybody?)

I agree that showcasing your flexibility is great , but save it for taxim and floor. i have 12 years of ballet under my belt , but was told from the get go, what would transfer over well.yes, keep leg kick at the right level. you find rules like this in certain ballroom dances and ice dancing too.

Originally Posted by kashmir

Are you doing belly dance or fusion? In fusion, occasional kicks may work. Within belly dance though it doesn't fit the style. If you were really good at tap would you add that and still call it belly dance? I doubt it.

Personally, occasional kicks keeping the foot below the knee can fit. Yes, I know some dancers over there add higher kicks - I can see Aida Nour's occasional "high" kick - but even that was no more than 90 degrees I think - and considered "shocking".

As far as offense goes, keeping in mind that professional belly dancers in themselves are offensive, but showing the shape of the crutch - even while wearing trousers is considered offensive for ordinary women. So, I wouldn't add kicks.

If you want to use your ballet training use the footwork, balance, posture and turns. Look at some of the work that Mohamed Kazafy puts out (hip drop release piroutte anybody?)

great point on the tap !!!!

To the OP: If you look on YouTube for Aziza of Montreal and Horacio Cifuentes of Germany you will see two outstanding examples of very accomplished ballet dancers who have made the transition to belly dancing and made their ballet background a huge plus in their dancing. They are so successful because they thoroughly understand both dance forms.

If you want to fuse ballet with belly dancing, please give it very serious consideration and study and be sure that you know belly dancing extremely well before trying to fuse it with a dance form that is almost its opposite in aesthetic.

We've seen too many poorly thought out fusions in the past. Not saying that it can't be done, but just encouraging caution.

I agree with others who say that the high kicks don't really fit.

Originally Posted by Devora

IMO, the high kick in this dance *feels* WAY better than it actually looks. We want to do it because it's fun and WE enjoy it, but if anyone has a vid clip of MED where a high kick doesn't appear incongruous or contrived, I'd love to see it.

IMO, avoid kicks in general and reign in those gams to a downward 45 degree max when doing an arabesque. For Turkish-style skirt-kick, max of 90-degree (from hip-to-knee) kick (with knee bent, and knee-to-toe not straight out) in your most outrageously energetic Turkish-type skirt-kick & turn/recovery routine (only then with a full, multilayered/ruffled skirt).

-Devora

(great pic ! )

I agree with the other posters: leave the high kicks to your obvious fusion works. I, like several other Bhuzzers, have had several years of Western classical training, and it was really hard to set aside some of the technical habits and assets I'd worked so hard for. It took a long time before I felt "ok" in this dance form, and I'll probably always be pegged as a "trained" dancer to the skilled observer. For a long time, I only took "pure" MED classes (no fusion forms, no Tribal, no Western dance forms) to really get Oriental into my body. Now that ME is "set," I feel like I can branch out from time to time.

The best thing that ballet can give you, in addition to good turns, balance, footwork, and carriage, is a deep and precise internal awareness of the body and movement. Thanks to that awareness, you can analyze and incorporate all kinds of other dance techniques, movement styles, and subtle dynamics way, way, waaaaay faster than most other students. Thanks to years of classes, you know how to focus and work extremely effectively.

You sound like a very skilled and conscientious student, and I'll bet you are a beautiful dancer!

I was always taught that belly dancers keep their knees together. Small low kicks have their place in Turkish style, but big kicks are jarring.

I did NOT like the "Belly Dance Super Stars" piece where they fused belly dance and ballet. They are great dancers, it just doesn't work. Keep the focus on the core, and then use the flexibility for fabulous floor splits and awesome backbends.

Well, as I said before it all depends. Here is Tulay Karaca clip where she did kick quite high (pay attention at 2:04 min. into the video). It was kind of cool and fit with the costume and the dance.



Hugs,
Amani

Does your music just SCREAM "High Kick" ? That would be the only time I think I personally would consider it, but to me there are so many other wonderful "throwing of energy" type of movements that would fit where a kick might fit. I would rather see those -- with a tension and release kind of energy.

(IMO, "tricks" can really cheapen a performance. So what if you can contort your arm up over your head and down your back? Did you just do that for shock value or did you REALLY think that was the most expressive physical response to the music at that time? Ya know?)

Originally Posted by aziyade

Does your music just SCREAM "High Kick" ? That would be the only time I think I personally would consider it, but to me there are so many other wonderful "throwing of energy" type of movements that would fit where a kick might fit. I would rather see those -- with a tension and release kind of energy.

(IMO, "tricks" can really cheapen a performance. So what if you can contort your arm up over your head and down your back? Did you just do that for shock value or did you REALLY think that was the most expressive physical response to the music at that time? Ya know?)

Perhaps a dancer with a ballet background hasn't assimilated the idea that the goal of the raqs sharqi dancer is to become the visual expression of the music in a way that is quite different from ballet choreographies. Or so it seems to me, I'm not a trained ballet dancer. But when I watch ballet I often think that, while the dancing is somewhat connected to the music, it frequently looks a bit disconnected and not so directly related to what the music is doing.

But fusion dancing has different goals and "rules," I suppose.

Originally Posted by dunyah

But when I watch ballet I often think that, while the dancing is somewhat connected to the music, it frequently looks a bit disconnected and not so directly related to what the music is doing.

The studio owner where I teach (and one of my former ballet teachers) HATES this about a lot of ballet. He loves the idea of being the visual representation of the music, rather than a physical voice in the orchestra (which is how a lot of ballet choreographers through the years have viewed the role of the dancer.)

In ballet, it helps to remember there is a difference in what the piece being dances is. The Classics are about the story, so many times the choreographers and dancers focus can be on creating a dance which supports the story as opposed to creating a dance which works with the music to support the story. Other, more modern pieces - Jewels by Balanchine and a few others - so tend to be a little more interpretative of the music. But the other thing to keep in mind is that ballet is Choreography based, which means that, until you get to the highest ranks of the Company, the Choreographer is GOD and therefore questioning their decisions is not a good idea.

it's a difference in intent, and this is either freeing or intimidating to ballet dancers who are starting to belly dance.

{{{{HUGS}}}

Originally Posted by KristinaBallerina

Everyone else tells me 'if you've got it, flaunt it' (as long as my skirt covers what it needs to cover) since due to my past as a professional ballet dancer and I have such a graceful fusion style, and that they wish they could do whatever balletic things I added to my solo.

Kristina, a couple more thoughts I'd like to offer for you to think about. These are theoretical, since I don't know the dancers who have encouraged you to do high kicks in the past....

Maybe the people who encouraged your high kicks feel intimidated by your athleticism and your past as a working ballerina. For example, your teacher may be saying to herself at some level, "Who am I to tell a ballerina what to do? She's logged a lot more studio time than I ever have, maybe I should let her do what she wants."

Of course, the problem with that thinking is that you may have a certain expertise in ballet, but belly dance is a very different art form, with different music, different dancer's relationship to that music, different use of the body to express that music, and so on. In other words, a skilled belly dance teacher should feel qualified to teach even a retired ballerina how to belly dance, and shouldn't hesitate to correct her technique, coach her in which moves to use versus which perhaps not to, etc.

Or, maybe the teacher who has encouraged you to do a lot of ballet turns (chaine, foutte, etc.) feels that she has captured a prize in attracting you as a student, and therefore is showing off by having you do you "tricks" in performances. Ie, "I'm such a good belly dance teacher that even this ballerina comes to me for classes."

Although such people may mean well, they may be missing an important point. Presumably, you're paying them money to teach you how to belly dance. And if they're encouraging you to continue doing ballet tricks without guiding you into exploring the essence of belly dance, then they're not really teaching you the thing you're paying them to teach you.

It's true that your flexibility and precision turns set you apart. But, do you want to stick out as being "the one who doesn't quite 'get' belly dance" and therefore relies on what she can insert from other dance forms? Or do you prefer to stand out as the one who show her versatility by mastering a new-to-her dance form with equal competence as what she once did for ballet? So long as you cling to the ballet aesthetic of your past, it may serve as a roadblock to moving forward.

Just something to consider. Again, I don't know you, and I don't know those who are urging you to include party tricks in your dancing. I just wanted to offer you another point of view to think about.