Thread: Questions about Turkish Roma dance and 9/8 rhythm

I've had a look about in the archives and can't find anything that answers my questions, but please feel free to re-signpost me if I'm going over old ground!

My background is mainly in Egyptian/Arabic BD, which is why I'm asking these questions:

1 - Is Turkish Roma dance only ever done to 9/8? I can't believe it is so, but all the info out there that I can find is about 9/8 rhythm

2 - What happens to the 'hop' or 'hold' in movement when not dancing to 9/8 rhythm - does it go somewhere else, or just disappear?

I'd very much appreciate being enlightened

The music played by Romani musicians includes plenty of non-9/8 music, especially a lot of fast chiftetellis (which are very different from the slow chiftetelli tunes we are used to).

There are steps in Turkish dance that can be adapted from a chiftetelli to a 9/8 and vice versa - Artemis teaches that, and it is great fun how the feel of a move or a combination changes when you do that. Basically, the "empty space" on the 9 is shifted to the "empty space" on the 8 in a chifti (of course, that does not work with every move, and not with every piece of music). But, according to what I have been taught, that does explicitly not apply to the Romani steps and gestures.

Originally Posted by deelybopper

I've had a look about in the archives and can't find anything that answers my questions, but please feel free to re-signpost me if I'm going over old ground!

Did you search on "karsilama" or "kashlimar"? I know there are threads on this.

1 - Is Turkish Roma dance only ever done to 9/8? I can't believe it is so, but all the info out there that I can find is about 9/8 rhythm

It's not my specialty, but if you delve into Turkish styles, I believe you'll find variations of Turkish Roma dancing that are not done to 9/8 rhythms, and Turkish 9/8s that are not Roma.

2 - What happens to the 'hop' or 'hold' in movement when not dancing to 9/8 rhythm - does it go somewhere else, or just disappear?

I don't think the hop exists equally in all forms of 9/8. Not all 9/8s are the same tempo, rhythmic pattern, or mood.

There are also foot patterns in Turkish Style Roman dance that do not have a hop or even a hold, the movement continues on through the pause into the next phrase.

Roman music is very diverse, also, there are many many variations of 9/8 where the pattern of the pulse in the music is different. I like the slow/quick way of identifying a rhythm since it helps with figuring out how to dance to it. Helene Eriksen is my go-to person for 9/8 rhythms. She teaches a workshop on all the variations which is just wonderful.

Marya

I'm going to confirm from my personal witness that not all Turkish Roman is danced to 9/8 rhythms, but a lot is. Tayyar's Turkish Rhythm CD names and plays several different 9s and can be a great resource, although his distribution is crap. You can contact Artemis or Tayyar directly and they can hook you up with a copy. It is a really great CD. It also has a few song tracks in addition to the rhythms that I used a ton for performance.

Also, if you are interested in learning more about Roman, you should get Reyhan and Delpha's DVD. I'm guessing most of it will be in 9, but I know Delpha and she will pack that DVD with a lot of educational content. I think it will be one of those must haves for anyone with an interest in this area.

links:
http://tayyarakdenizdance.netfirms.com/
http://www.serpentine.org/artemis/artemis.htm

http://www.dhavir.com/shop/product.php?id_product=44

Thanks for all the replies! You confirmed my suspicions

Tourbeau - I'll search on 'karsilama' and 'kashlimar' - thanks for the suggesions

Wallowa and Steffib - thanks for this info - I've already discovered by listening to what I have in my music collection that not all 9/8s are equal (no pun intended) and also that Turkish Roma musicians play a wider variety than 9/8 - this was, in part, what spurred the original question.

Shems - thanks for the links. I'll look into Tayyar's rhythm CD. I already have Artemis and Ruby's DVDs. I would *love* to have the Reyhan/Delpha DVD but at the moment the dollar/sterling exchange rate means that I would have to pay a customs charge (and handling fee to the Royal Mail) which takes it outside my price range at the moment, but it's on my wishlist.

If anyone has any suggestions of youtube clips that would be very helpful in the interim.

I <3 the Bhuz information motherlode

hope this works, David Reihs posted this facebook video to his page.

http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/...42543&comments

and Reyhan



Jennet (now in Portugal)



Marya

Thanks wallowa

This one was posted on Facebook recently... My mumsy, a dedicated Turkish Roman style dancer who has been studying regularly in Turkey (with Reyhan) for many years, Luuurved this clip

Originally Posted by deelybopper

Thanks wallowa

You are welcome, and thanks to Nandadncer for the clip she posted, that was great!

Marya

Originally Posted by NandaDncer

This one was posted on Facebook recently... My mumsy, a dedicated Turkish Roman style dancer who has been studying regularly in Turkey (with Reyhan) for many years, Luuurved this clip

This is a phenomenal clip. Thanks so much for posting.

Originally Posted by Wallowa

You are welcome, and thanks to Nanadncer for the clip she posted, that was great!

Marya

Sorry, we must have cross-posted, yes thanks to Nandadancer too

And now that I've actually watched the clip OMG, amazing - thankyou again

hi everyone, david from dhavir here... thanks for the interesting thread! Hope i can help. these are some of the questions which made us so interested in this subject, and here is what we found...

1. yes roman musicians play many kinds of music. mostly for restaurant gigs and non-roman events they will play all kinds of standard Turkish folk, pop and even classical and many play a little Arabic music too. essentially, they are paid musicians and are going to play what most people in turkey want: turkish music(with a little roman thrown in). Basically, it's a gig.

2. Now, that has nothing to do with what they consider to be Roman music and dance or 'Roma Oyun Havası', as it is called. this music and dance features exclusively(at this time) 9/8 music and the movements you will see from Reyhan. this is what they play and dance at their events and weddings. and is seen all over inside the old Ottoman borders of Trakya/Thrace - nw Turkey, eastern Greece, southern Bulgaria. the music and dance are completely their own thing and have very specific tendencies with room for improv as the art progresses.

3. If a Roman person dances to non-Roman(non- Roman 9/8) music, it is just called "dance" ! ; ) it is no longer Roman oyun havası.

4 the word you guys want is Karşılama(Pronounced Karshilama) in Turkish. it has nothing specific to do with Roman Oyun Havası. Karşılama is a Turkish/Greek partner folk dance that has many variations around Turkey and is done commonly to the standard turkish 9/8 (D-T-D-TT-) that everyone knows, but also to many other rhythms including 3,5,7,10. the steps in Roman Oyun Havası dance may be similar to some versions of karşilama dance but are not necessarily used. Wiki says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%9F%C4%B1lama
and just copy this ' Karşılama '(turkish spelling) into youtube and see the variations you find!

4: so, the rhythms: that standard Turkish 9/8, (which is often called karşılama in the USA, not in Turkey), is almost never used in Roman songs. In the DVD we go over the main forms of 9/8 used in the majority of Roman music. there are many many variations of these rhythms, as a percussionist, i would say there are about 8 to 10 standard variations of 2 or 3 main forms that i generally hear and use. they are weird and do not sound like the 9/8 we all know and love! ; 0

I hope this helps!
david

ps - Nandadancer: who is your 'mumsy'? we must know her, yes?

Thankyou *so* much for this info davidr. I'm very much intending to purchase your dvd, but waiting for a favourable exchange rate so I don't get slammed with heavy customs charges!

Ahmet Ogren Roman Dance and Karsilama

Dear Dancers,
Thank you very much for sharing your prespectives about me. I would like to share my 30 years of Dance experience and 20 years of my research on Roman Dance with you.
1- KARSILAMA is not a Roman Dance.
2- No Oriental Dancer in Turkey, will ever do KARSILAMA dance as part of their dance routine.
The reason of similarity between Karsilama and the Roman dance is the fact that they both share 9/8 rhytem. All music that has 9/8 ryhtem is not a Roman music.
Karsilama Dance has rules and regulations, without these rules there wont be a Karsilama Dance!
These Rules are:
1- measures must be within 9
2- Handkircief must be used.
3- Most important part of the dance is that it must be danced with at least two or more people. It is never done as a Solo Dance.
Roman Dance is an indivudual dance and is a dance of improvisation. Roman Dancer dances according to what one feels with in the music that is being played.
In order to dance Romany dance one must do a research on Roman Dance.
Their life style and mentallity must be taken to consideration.
The reason for all this confusement is the result of some dancers taking few Roman Classes then teaching others there amature way interpreting of Roman Dance.
This as a result harms The Turkish Roman Dance.
If you want to really learn Roman Dance then research on your teachers as well, swirling the skirts does not make a Roman Dancer!
Of course you can dance to 9/8 but do not say, “ I am dancing to Karsilama or Roman.”
The difference between Karsilama and Roman dance is;
1- Karsilama has 1-2, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2-3 as a muasuring ryhtem (Never can be danced as a Solo)
2- In Roman, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2, 1-3 as a measuring rhytem more simplified 1-2-3-4-5
One step, two step, three step, Four; (Skip) Jump, Five a step.
Ahmet Ögren
www.dansciahmet.com

Thank you!

I've been wondering about this. Seeing all these videos with "Roman" dance - well I worked with Roman dancers and they didn't look like the videos especially those which coarsen the dance and sometimes even look clumsy or crude - this I never saw. We see things approaching bump and grind and are informed they are "gypsy".

Well I disagree - and also this isn't part of the Turkish dance that I saw - I worked with these dancers - they were not crude or clumsy or jerky or overly "flashy" - they did not look like pole dancers or strippers - one did see a great variety of styles though, the dancers were quite individualistic in their approach to the oriental dance. There were some who stressed the hops and skips and others who were quite "Arabesque," etc.

Most did do skirt work for finales and they did use the 9/8 in the Karsilama count but come to think of it, not the Roman dancers. IE the 9/8 Karsilama rhythm was adapted as a solo improvisational dance by the Turkish Oriental dancers and then adapted by people in the US - so no it isn't the authentic folk dance as it's done in Turkey - but that's true of some Egyptian forms also, that have been integrated into the Oriental dance.

Perhaps, the best way to understand the new "gypsy" dances and adaptations of other traditional forms - is as theatrical art. They are wonderful but not necessarily authentic in an ethnographic sense.

Originally Posted by Elibelinde

Most did do skirt work for finales and they did use the 9/8 in the Karsilama count but come to think of it, not the Roman dancers. IE the 9/8 Karsilama rhythm was adapted as a solo improvisational dance by the Turkish Oriental dancers and then adapted by people in the US - so no it isn't the authentic folk dance as it's done in Turkey - but that's true of some Egyptian forms also, that have been integrated into the Oriental dance.

There have been a lot of misunderstandings in the US about what is (or isn't) Turkish dance, Roma dance in Turkey, and Roma dance from other places. When people rushed to embrace Egyptian style in the 1980s, I think those other labels went through a period of being a dumping ground for whatever dancers were junking as not being Egyptian. For a long time, not many people knew much beyond the American club tradition (solo performances to music with the Turkish 9/8 Karsilama rhythm), and a confusing mixture of authentic Roma information, stereotypical/wrong nonsense, and gestures that sometimes became separated from their meanings. Qualified teachers are still pretty scarce, but it is slowly getting better.

Years ago, a rather highly regarded teacher told me, "Never trust anything coming from a dancer who calls it 'Kashlimar' The only people who use that term are musicians who want to irritate the Turks in the band, and dancers who don't know any better." As long as we're addressing misconceptions, can anybody tackle this one?

If you really want to find out about Turkish Roma dance, come join the master himself, Ahmet Ogren (see his 2/11 post), in a 2-day workshop, April 16 & 17, in Santa Fe, NM. Contact Joan Kafri, jkafri@peoplepc.com, for details.

Originally Posted by joankafri

If you really want to find out about Turkish Roma dance, come join the master himself, Ahmet Ogren (see his 2/11 post), in a 2-day workshop, April 16 & 17, in Santa Fe, NM. Contact Joan Kafri, jkafri@peoplepc.com, for details.

Oh wow that sounds wonderful - love Santa Fe! plus what an opportunity to learn -