Thread: another term for "tribal fusion"?

I know a lot of us call foul on using the term "fusion" when the dancer isn't actually fusing distinct styles, but what would be a better term?

I'm okay with calling it fusion if the only thing getting "fused in" is Western music, themes, or social dancing. "Interpretive"? "Creative"?

Most of the possible words here have to do innovation (implying a positive sense of progress, something I wouldn't say fits all "tribal fusion" equally), or contamination (which would be perceived as offensive and condescending), or the combination process itself (which goes right back to the idea of adding fully realized, distinct things together). Do you have a specific example of this not-quite-fusion in mind?

Originally Posted by anthea

I know a lot of us call foul on using the term "fusion" when the dancer isn't actually fusing distinct styles, but what would be a better term?

How about "Modern Tribal"? It is distintictive of the Modern dance movement.

I'm kinda partial to World Tribal Fusion, albiet there are usually no tribes involved. Great acronym though.

I'm rather fond of MIB...
Modern Interpretive Bellydance (tho I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually use that- hubby & I have too much fun thinking up alternative acronyms for all kinds of things!)

I have seen Group Improvisational Bellydance, but that obviously wouldn't apply to soloists of a similar style.

Originally Posted by Lara L

Modern Interpretive Bellydance

ooh, that's a good one! and probably won't piss anyone off. ;)

Originally Posted by LMargaretDancer

How about "Modern Tribal"? It is distintictive of the Modern dance movement.

This makes sense to me - most of this really is a form of modern dance, nothing wrong with that!

Originally Posted by nasila

I'm kinda partial to World Tribal Fusion, albiet there are usually no tribes involved. Great acronym though.

Perfect.

Originally Posted by Lara L

I'm rather fond of MIB...
Modern Interpretive Bellydance

I agree this wouldn't stick, but I like it because it removes the misnomer "tribal" (unless "tribal" generally refers to its being performed in a group (if group=tribe), as opposed to the common misconception by GP that it has its roots in some ancient "tribal" dance).

-Devora

my dance partner and I have used the term 'interpretive fusion bellydance' ... though that still uses the term fusion ... but there are elements of multiple dance forms fused in (which we try to study the roots of as much as possible in addition to studying w/ 'tribal fusion' dancers and of course ATS/ITS dancers and egyptian and other more traditional bellydance dancers) as well as the musical aspects so I think it fits - it just depends on how narrowly you want to define 'fusion'

my understanding of 'modern' dance is that it actually is a very distinct (or a collection of distinct) dance style w/ rules and such - maybe I'm misinformed? - if that's true, though, I wouldn't go randomly attaching it to the name unless you were specifically trained in one of those styles and fusing that in w/ your bellydance or it could cause confusion.

also, I don't see a problem with using tribal in the fusion's name even when there is not a tribe IF someone is in fact trained in tribal style dance (ATS, ITS something w/ a tribe / group of dancers - which is where the tribal originally came from in tribal fusion) and is maintaining much of those stylings in the fusion - to show the origination of the fusion.

There are dancers who consider themselves "tribal" in the sense of a larger "alternative" lifestyle, and when they dance they feel they are expressing that kinship as much as or more than a dance one. Their movement vocabulary tends to be closer to the ATS style than the folkloric one, but they are representing tribes beyond Carolena Nericcio's or Jamila Salimpour's conceptual re-envisionings.

Originally Posted by portiaangel

my understanding of 'modern' dance is that it actually is a very distinct (or a collection of distinct) dance style w/ rules and such - maybe I'm misinformed? - if that's true, though, I wouldn't go randomly attaching it to the name unless you were specifically trained in one of those styles and fusing that in w/ your bellydance or it could cause confusion.

This is my impression, too--that "modern dance" already means something specific in the larger dance world that this wouldn't be considered a part of.

I have a dumb question...

why does everything have to have a label?

Originally Posted by Basha

I have a dumb question...

why does everything have to have a label?

To communicate with peers, audience or students what one's study, performance or class is about.

I dunno-

I tell people I'm a bellydancer- there are many genre's of bellydance and it has evolved over time.

I am a student of dance- I tend prefer these genre's and this style of music and these costuming choices but I have always had a hard time "labeling" myself- so I don't... its just stylization- good dance is good dance no matter what you call it.

Originally Posted by Basha

Good dance is good dance no matter what you call it.

Agreed, but calling something by a misleading name can raise questions about truth in advertising.

agreed... but I think there are definite "traditional" styles. That most people will recognize and label accordingly... but at what point did they become "traditional" styles where everyone would label and then "market" them as such? Eventually what we are doing now- will get sorted out- history will "label" itself- us hashing it out won't change what people think in 100 years.

I'm sure the women way back in the day didn't label their dancing- they just danced.

I think we get so wrapped up into labelling and boxing everything into nice packages- we forget its dancing- its about the music. Sure there are techniques and skills to be learned and sylization- but really- when you dance- are you dancing for them or for you.

I would dance classes are about being able to TAP that- not drill it into you. You can't drill the spirit and fire of dance into someone- and no label will change how you dance and what you feel when you do dance.

shrug- I'm odd- if I HAD to call myself something- I'd call it goth-con-fusion... since I don't know what I do... I just dance :)

Originally Posted by Basha

But at what point did they become "traditional" styles where everyone would label and then "market" them as such?

I'm sure the women way back in the day didn't label their dancing- they just danced.

"Market" is a key word here. A lot of the people promoting variant dance styles are doing so in a desire to become "famous", to create "buzz" around themselves. They're seeking to be the center of attention, to proclaim themselves the founder of the Next Big Thing. Some are motivated by money, hoping that by proclaiming themselves the "founder" of something they'll be able to turn that into becoming workshop instructors or sought-after performers.

Women "back in the day" lived in a society where dance was something you did for fun, and NEVER in the public eye. They weren't seeking fame or fortune, they were just partying with their friends.

If you're dancing in the privacy of your home, with only your sisters, aunts, and cousins in the room, and if you're never planning to teach it to strangers or perform it in front of strangers, then I'd agree with you, it's not necessary to label that with a name.

Originally Posted by Basha

Sure there are techniques and skills to be learned and stylization- but really- when you dance - are you dancing for them or for you.

This is an off-topic rant, but it was inspired by your comment asking whether you're dancing for "them" or for "you":

Well, if someone is paying you to perform, then your dance had better be focused on the wants/needs of the person who hired you and what kind of show they expect to receive for their money, and not on your own selfish motives.

If you're not being paid but you're performing in front of people you don't necessarily know, you still should be performing according to the guidelines set by the organizer of the event, and you still owe the audience the courtesy of trying to present something that will be pleasing to them. After all, you're expecting them to sit politely through your performance and support you with interested attention and applause.

If you want your personal gratification to be the primary factor that determines what you do in your dance, without needing to please an organizer or an audience, and if you're serious about wanting to emulate what women did "back in the day", then dance privately in your living room with your sisters, cousins, and aunts.

Before things get out of hand, I want to say that I don't think anything written here precludes anyone from following their muse wherever it may lead. The critical feature is presenting yourself to your audience honestly and with respectful forethought. If you (general "you") want to be a broader performance artist and do something that an average ME audience would not recognize as "their dance," it's certainly your prerogative to do so, but: (1) present it accurately up front (so the audience or event organizer can decide if they want your theatrical experience or not), and (2) think through how what you do will work with or against their expectations before you go on stage (so you don't end up hurt, frustrated, and misunderstood by an audience who wanted something else).

Originally Posted by Basha

I'm sure the women way back in the day didn't label their dancing- they just danced.

I think we get so wrapped up into labelling and boxing everything into nice packages- we forget its dancing- its about the music. Sure there are techniques and skills to be learned and sylization- but really- when you dance- are you dancing for them or for you.

Students, people dancing in their kitchens, and maybe ladies back in the day have no need of labels. Dancers who are marketing their skills as performers, artists, entertainers and teachers need to be able to articulate what part of the spectrum they are from. Thus, labels and genres.

It IS about the music...and often the music is a key in defining the label...and those labels help us have a feel for what sort of music to expect and enjoy.

Adding my weight to Shira and Ozma - belly dancers "back in the day" (which day?) were not part of a self-feeding globalised community that runs on commerce, in which, as in all consumer culture, products are differentiated into niches in order to offer consumers a wider selection of perceived choices to buy. What is different in the case of belly dance, compared to, say, socks, is that rather than there being a simple superimposition of perceived choice onto one product that is still, in the end, a sock, is that more and more "things" are being attached to the term "belly dance" and marketed and sold. I personally think this is because belly dance comes, in the western world anyway, with a bunch of rather nebulous baggage around exoticism, eroticism, othering, mystery, ancient spirituality et al, which is why it's so easy to pair it with burlesque/erotic dancing, any "other" culture's dance traditions - Chinese sleeves and fans, salsa, Thai fingers, Polynesian fire - the occult, pagan ritual etc.

It's also been profoundly technologised and tangled in the west, like other "other" movement systems, with fitness culture, so our dance culture is a lot more about drilling, strengthening, perfecting than it used to be (and again, that's all driven underneath by commerce). It is fair to say that the dance has become so detached from what it was/is in some communities that dancers of today want to use it for its old use - pleasure, self-expression - but in ways that relate to their preferred kinds of music and physical expressions. And that is understandable but also, to me, problematic, because I don't think it is entirely our sandbox to play in for a start, but also, we are in a time when the label "belly dance" risks becoming meaningless because it's now applied to things that have had their core of ME dance removed completely. It's not just moves and never has been. I'd be a far more confident and accomplished-in-my-mind dancer if I just went out there and performed detached combinations that I made up earlier, I can tell you. I can make up nice combinations all day long, just not ones that go with the music.

As for audience? Who? For many of us our real audience is each other and the reason we label and particularise is for each other, so we can sell to each other. It's quite shocking when the real world's ideas about belly dance dare to intrude sometimes. Much like you'd be shocked if you ordered lobster and someone gave you lamb, and when you pointed that out the chef said "oh that's just my style - LOBSTER EVOLVES."

Originally Posted by *Shira*

Well, if someone is paying you to perform, then your dance had better be focused on the wants/needs of the person who hired you and what kind of show they expect to receive for their money, and not on your own selfish motives.

I agree- if someone is paying you for an image or style- you need to be able to honestly provide that- or not take the job. 100% agree

Originally Posted by *Shira*

If you're not being paid but you're performing in front of people you don't necessarily know, you still should be performing according to the guidelines set by the organizer of the event, and you still owe the audience the courtesy of trying to present something that will be pleasing to them. After all, you're expecting them to sit politely through your performance and support you with interested attention and applause.

If you want your personal gratification to be the primary factor that determines what you do in your dance, without needing to please an organizer or an audience, and if you're serious about wanting to emulate what women did "back in the day", then dance privately in your living room with your sisters, cousins, and aunts.

I think knowing your audience is important- and its the dancer's responsibility to know what you're getting into sort to speak.

I guess- since so many dancers are NOT aiming for professionalism and next big thinism I just find it interesting we need to name all styles of dance.

I do think more dancers should focus on trational dancing- even if it isn't their thing- it makes you a MUCH better dancer- and makes you far more marketable- even in just a sense of small gigs if you have the chance to upgrade from professional student to local gigs/resturants.

anyway- I didn't mean to completely derail- I just find for a commuty that is completely "accepting" of everyone- we can be horribly judgemental of everything NOT fitting someone somewhere's format.

sorry- again didn't mean to derail - I didn't work today- so you know- nothing better to do. lol

I guess- since so many dancers are NOT aiming for professionalism and next big thinism I just find it interesting we need to name all styles of dance.

Yes, exactly! So for the love of God can those dancers stop calling it belly dance and choose a name more reflective of the fact that they're just dancing about in a non-specific fashion?

I mean, if you don't LIKE belly dance why insist on calling everything you do like belly dance, if you're not going to sell it?

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

Yes, exactly! So for the love of God can those dancers stop calling it belly dance and choose a name more reflective of the fact that they're just dancing about in a non-specific fashion?

I mean, if you don't LIKE belly dance why insist on calling everything you do like belly dance, if you're not going to sell it?

Middleeastern inspired hiphopfunkalicious awesome hipsnakearmlocking music that inspires me goodness?


that doesn't even shorten down well MIHAHMTIMG....

hmmm we must work on this!

Originally Posted by Basha

I guess- since so many dancers are NOT aiming for professionalism and next big thinism I just find it interesting we need to name all styles of dance.

I do think more dancers should focus on trational dancing- even if it isn't their thing- it makes you a MUCH better dancer- and makes you far more marketable- even in just a sense of small gigs if you have the chance to upgrade from professional student to local gigs/resturants.

I don't think dancers who aren't marketing/selling what they do need to define themselves explicitly...and those who do have to define themselves should be allowed some fluidity in labels as many dancers don't inhabit just one style and the labels we need in the dance community are different than what we need when talking to the GP...but I do think it is good to have a variety of labels to choose from and to think about what style/music/origins/motivation you lean towards from time to time even if you aren't going beyond your own kitchen...as it helps provide focus and it helps one start to realize how large and varied the land(s) of bellydance are now.

As for traditional...that also varies from style to style as there isn't one single land of dance origins. When I get back to basics I am often exploring the Romani roots that influence Turkish Oriental style, but a more Egyptian focused dancer might turn to other folk traditions to define "traditional"..."Traditional" might conjure up 1960's bellydance album covers for the GP but somethign very different for those of us in the dance community.

I don't think everyone needs a label, but I do think we need to think about labels/genres/catagories and each dancer does need some personal wrestling with the issue from time to time.

Originally Posted by nasila

I'm kinda partial to World Tribal Fusion, albiet there are usually no tribes involved. Great acronym though.

hahahah!
World Trip Fusion!

Good point from Ozma: "I don't think everyone needs a label, but I do think we need to think about labels/genres/catagories and each dancer does need some personal wrestling with the issue from time to time. "

Whose quote is "The unexamined life is not worth living?"

sorry, backing the conversation up a bit...

Originally Posted by portiaangel

my dance partner and I have used the term 'interpretive fusion bellydance' ... though that still uses the term fusion ...

I like that label- very descriptive.

Originally Posted by portiaangel

my understanding of 'modern' dance is that it actually is a very distinct (or a collection of distinct) dance style w/ rules and such - maybe I'm misinformed? - if that's true, though, I wouldn't go randomly attaching it to the name unless you were specifically trained in one of those styles and fusing that in w/ your bellydance or it could cause confusion.

Yes, Modern Dance is very distinct (with it's own issues too, lol!) BUT Modern Bellydance, or Modern Fusion or what have you does not imply it is Modern Dance or even Modern Dance fused with something else any more than a term like Modern Living- modern still being a frequently used word in our daily vocabulary :)
that being said, Modern Interpretive BD is not a term I have road tested (seriously, just being goofy after watching too many movies...) I think I might play with it a little, tho & see what kind of response it gets. Definitely have a routine or 2 it would apply to, which are in no way, shape or form going to fly under the handle of 'tribal fusion' just being what they are!

Originally Posted by Lara L

that being said, Modern Interpretive BD is not a term I have road tested (seriously, just being goofy after watching too many movies...) I think I might play with it a little, tho & see what kind of response it gets.

I'd probably reswizzle it to say "Interpretive World Fusion Dance" because many dancers in this genre have very few elements recognizably Middle Eastern, and the few they do are overpowered by hiphop or whatever else they're using. The word "interpretive" gives license to wander outside of genre boundaries, and the word "world" gives a nod to the fact that the dancer may be using textiles from India, floreos from flamenco, hiphop, yoga, etc. And fusion means that various styles are being mixed together. Using the term "interpretive world fusion" gives dancers in the genre the freedom to balance swords, spin poi, do floor work, pop & lock, incorporate yoga movement, wear kavadi frames, and all the other things that are part of today's tribal fusion scene.

Originally Posted by *Shira*

I'd probably reswizzle it to say "Interpretive World Fusion Dance" because many dancers in this genre have very few elements recognizably Middle Eastern, and the few they do are overpowered by hiphop or whatever else they're using. The word "interpretive" gives license to wander outside of genre boundaries, and the word "world" gives a nod to the fact that the dancer may be using textiles from India, floreos from flamenco, hiphop, yoga, etc. And fusion means that various styles are being mixed together. Using the term "interpretive world fusion" gives dancers in the genre the freedom to balance swords, spin poi, do floor work, pop & lock, incorporate yoga movement, wear kavadi frames, and all the other things that are part of today's tribal fusion scene.

What Shira said.
When I do something funky, experimental with my troupe in a show or presentation, I call it Liesa's Funky Style. But we have a small market here, and that signals to our audience that it is not Bellydance. I think. But at least I feel that I am offering truth in labeling.

"Modern" to me also screams Modern Dance.

"Contemporary" is my preferred choice. Lets the market know that it's not necessarily a traditional thing, but is grounded in 'today.'

"Tribal" is still going to scream ATS (or Indigo style TF) for anybody who has been involved in dance for any length of time. I like the idea of the "tribe" but it's hard to separate a group "tribe" feeling from the ATS/TF aesthetic.

"World Fusion" is really a good term. Or "mesh" -- which is what they were calling the music a few years ago. (Of course that can easily sound like "mess.") World fusion conjures up images (to me) of undulating and hip dropping to Balkan music, or inserting Turkish folk dance steps into an upbeat debke or something.