Thread: What IS Egyptian Dance?

Originally Posted by jasani

I've watched some of the Egyptian dance star movies from the 40's and it looks like a fusion of ballet moves and a lot of basic hip movements to me.

Which Egyptian dance star were you watching? Samia Gamal had a tendency to do only ONE Oriental piece in a movie, while all her other scenes in the same movie were intentionally more Westernized, more like a Hollywood musical. This was because she thought doing multiple Oriental pieces was too repetitious, whereas doing one Oriental piece plus some Hollywood-style stuff offered more opportunity to inject variety.

That's why, for example, in Afrita Hanem you have:

• One piece that has an Oriental flavor (the famous scene that some compilations title Kahraman, the name of her character, where she terrorizes Farid al-Atrache)
• Another of her pieces (Sketch al Rabie) that looks like it's straight out of a Broadway musical or Ziegfeld Follies piece
• A third piece (Soltan al Jin) which is an artsy-fartsy operetta, intended to look like the staging of a European opera

Samia never intended the scenes described in the 2nd and 3rd bullets above to be representative of the Oriental dance that she did in nightclubs. And movie-going audiences of the time knew this to be the case. It's only us modern-day belly dancers who misinterpret those scenes to be Samia's Oriental style.

Although the above refers to only one movie, I could offer a similar analysis of the scenes in other movies of hers.

For a better example of Oriental dance as seen in the nightclubs of the day, I'd suggest the scenes of Tahia Carioca from Shatie el Hob (Shore of Love).

Originally Posted by rakgirl

lets keep in mind also that Egypt changes and so does Egyptian style. So now you can go to Egypt and see dancers doing whole veil sections in their performance. does that mean veil is proper Egyptian?

Some dancers in Egypt are also performing with wings now, too. The dance as performed in Egypt continues to evolve, as it should. It's a living, breathing art form. (Even if it's not really considered an art by many in its own land of origin.)

A lot of dancers want to call their style "Egyptian" because it is considered to be a good thing to be that style. If Egyptian is "in," they want to be Egyptian. So they learn some Egyptian styling and call their dance Egyptian.

The American style (I dislike the term AmCab but I understand why people use that shorthand term) has also evolved over the years and is also a living, breathing art form worthy of more respect than it gets sometimes.

If we aren't born in and living in Egypt, perhaps none of us are "pure" Egyptian style. Doesn't mean you can't be really good at it no matter where you are born/live. Just making the point that none of these styles are "pure" any longer, if they ever were.

You gotta be true to your own artistic vision, while also studying as much as you can with the best teachers you can find.

One more point re: ATS. I read in Jareeda Magazine that Carolena Nericcio has asked that nobody but FatChance call themselves ATS. So out of respect for her, some ATS style dancers no longer use that term.

I think that Tribal Fusion, a descendant of ATS, should drop the Tribal part of the name, but that's just my opinion. World Fusion might be more accurate.

Originally Posted by shashadance

Bellydance today has sort of become acrobatic or "stunt show". Many, particularly non-bellydancers, would equate a dancer who can do split, low back bend, or any impressive acrobatic moves as a good dancer. The definition of style is not something audience would take note of.

Sad but too true. For me it is no longer belly dance if I find myself saying "wow, how did she do that" because the stunts have overshadowed the dance which (in my opinion) needs to be a link between the music and who the dancer is.

In class it needs a gentle explanation that gross, obvious moves are not the mark of a "great dancer" in belly dance.

Okay, I have to ask this question... and then I will duck down behind my desk.

Who decides that this move is Egyptian and this move is not?

Suppose we see an Egyptian dancer, who has studied only with Egyptian teachers, and in the midst of her dance we see two chest pops.

Is her style now "not Egyptian"? Or is she, by executing her moves, helping to change Egyptian style to include the moves?

Or when we say, "Egyptian Style" do we mean, "how the Egyptian dancers danced in 1949 (or 1952, or 1964)"?

This dance form is not a monolithic, documented event; nor does it have written, photographic, and video records, all complete, that we can consult and be sure.

When someone says, Egyptian dance is like this: a, b, c, d..., doesn't she really mean, Egyptian dance as I was taught about it by particular people is like this: a, b, c, d?

Damon Knight was asked to define science fiction. He famously answered (in a quote I will likely mangle), "Science fiction is what I point to when I say science fiction." It's clearly dependent on who is doing the pointing. When someone says to me, "Generally, in the Egyptian style, chest pops are not used," I'm a heck of a lot less skeptical than when someone tries to convince me of absolutes.

Word to tigerb.

America has dictated how Egyptian dance has changed since the 30's?...

Heh. Yes, amazingly, "the West" did not mean "the United States of America" until comparatively recently. Not all western influence is US influence. I think some people would be quite shocked to realise "orientalist" western dancers were wearing bedleh-like outfits back when Hollywood was just a suburb and there were no movies in the USA. Egypt was occupied by Britain for many years, IIRC. If anybody was dictating how Egyptian dance changed, it was them, and also - GASP - Egyptians.

Originally Posted by tigerb

Damon Knight was asked to define science fiction. He famously answered (in a quote I will likely mangle), "Science fiction is what I point to when I say science fiction." It's clearly dependent on who is doing the pointing. When someone says to me, "Generally, in the Egyptian style, chest pops are not used," I'm a heck of a lot less skeptical than when someone tries to convince me of absolutes.

Exactly!

An individual dancer's understanding of cultural context is entirely relative.

Originally Posted by zumarrad

Word to tigerb.



Heh. Yes, amazingly, "the West" did not mean "the United States of America" until comparatively recently. Not all western influence is US influence. I think some people would be quite shocked to realise "orientalist" western dancers were wearing bedleh-like outfits back when Hollywood was just a suburb and there were no movies in the USA. Egypt was occupied by Britain for many years, IIRC. If anybody was dictating how Egyptian dance changed, it was them, and also - GASP - Egyptians.

I am sure the Egyptians were influenced by the dance they saw in particularly US movies. They also took on board influences from Latin and South American rhythms. As for the British..mmm.. I think we and the French might have encouraged them to use the accordian in their orchestras...can't think of anything else..g.:

Originally Posted by lizajuk

I am sure the Egyptians were influenced by the dance they saw in particularly US movies. They also took on board influences from Latin and South American rhythms. As for the British..mmm.. I think we and the French might have encouraged them to use the accordian in their orchestras...can't think of anything else..g.:

They got those Russian dance teachers over surely of their own volition to make the dance more of a staged activity and one that would fit in cinema and night club also. And that I suppose would please Westerners as well as their own folks.

But back to the style. It doesn't stand still and it's foolish to try to make it. The good dancers of today are no less pleasing than those of the Golden Age no matter what some may try to say.
And there is something about the Egyptian Egyptian dancer that leaves the rest of us way way behind. Yes there are European dancers who have absorbed a lot of "it" but somehow in the main the accent is still there. And to be truthful, audiences may like that including Egyptians. It all adds variety to a scene. I have only seen 1 US dancer who came anywhere near and that was Bozenka but I have only seen a few off video. That didn't make the rest less entertaining. Some European dancers are getting that laid back dance and seem able to interpret the emotion but I'd need an Egyptian, well versed in dancing to tell me if they have "it". I know some Egyptians have praised Euro dancers and obviously have thought them worthy of hire.

They got those Russian dance teachers over surely of their own volition to make the dance more of a staged activity and one that would fit in cinema and night club also.

Yes, and that started in the 20s. Reda et al were definitely very influenced by Hollywood movies 30 years later, but there were OTHER INFLUENCES. Hollywood is not the only thing that influences people!

Pardon my laziness for not reading all the posts in this thread, but here is my take on it;

Egyptian technique - movements executed within the parameters of Egyptian posture and guidelines of execution (muscular execution, abdominal interaction, "breathing" flow of movement etc).

Egyptian style - execution encompassing typical Egyptian traits within the dance such as hesitations, containment, lyrical and percussive focus.

So, a dancer can be Egyptian technique without being Egyptian style. And a dancer can be Egyptian style without being Egyptian technique. As far as movements goes - any movement is Egyptian if executed within the parameters of Egyptian technique and/or style. As for props - again, props are additions to your show just like your costume so as long as you remain within the parameters of Egyptian technique and/or style - you can pretty much get away with any props. WHICH means that you'd have to utilize the prop according to the rules and regulations of Egyptian prop work.... Veils have to be lyrically focused and not rhytmically, canes have to follow the principles of Saiidi and Tahtib - not Lebanese or AmCab cane, balance work has to encorporate the principles of Shamadan and cane balancing within Egyptian style etc etc etc.

Really, as long as you grasp the concepts of Egyptian technique and the philosophy of Egyptian style - anything will look Egyptian unless you intentionally seek to break the rules of your training.

It's like - Fifi Abdou and Aida Nour do floor work - is that NOT Egyptian just because it's not commonly done? It's more about consistency and "loyalty" in execution and understanding of Egyptian style/technique than what is and what is not Egyptian.

AAAAAAND, if you want to understand the concepts of Egyptian style - get my new book "The EDA handbook for Middle Eastern Dance". Sorry, couldnt resist....

DaVid
DaVid of Scandinavia - international dance artist : : Bhangra : : Bollywood : : Raqs Sharki :: Middle Eastern Folklore

Originally Posted by david

Pardon my laziness for not reading all the posts in this thread, but here is my take on it;

Egyptian technique - movements executed within the parameters of Egyptian posture and guidelines of execution (muscular execution, abdominal interaction, "breathing" flow of movement etc).

Egyptian style - execution encompassing typical Egyptian traits within the dance such as hesitations, containment, lyrical and percussive focus.

So, a dancer can be Egyptian technique without being Egyptian style.

Yes, David! Many American dancers that label themselves Egyptian are Egyptian in technique only, but the overall package is not Egyptian, generally because the spontaneity and emotional response are not there (e.g. the dance is over choreographed and all emotion is focused on creating stage drama).

Also, in terms of the dance evolving, it is very different for the Egyptian dancers to be innovative with their own dance, versus foreigners to the culture being innovative. The two are not equivalent (though both can be good or bad).

Sedonia